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A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?


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22 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Yet.......here you are, a part of the discourse.  On DCP.  Massively poor reputation and all....

I'm not afraid to dive into the muck sometimes, i do get bored from time to time. 

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Let me make this crystal clear.  It's not about the activity not being the exact same as when I marched (and I'll touch more on that below).  It's about the activity being transformed into something that already exists and already has a venue and an audience (BOA and WGI), and about disenfranchising everyone who isn't comfortable with that.

I can't help but notice your tenure as an active member coincides with the first wave of Hopkins' changes.  I see that a lot.  05 vets and beyond, why, it's all you know.  It's what you were indoctrinated into considering to be the norm, the status quo.  I understand you feel like you need to defend and validate your tenure and your contributions to the activity, and that activity's relevance at the time you particpated, but honestly (and I really do mean this), you don't have to do that.  Not with me, and not with anyone else. 

I love how you accuse me of making you into something i'm not, then turn around and do that to me. I never made it about 'my contributions to the activity'. You are really taking the projection game up to 11.

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We are not opposed to change, if the change is sound, if the change is reasonable, if the change has merit, if the change possesses even a shred of common sense.  Let me type this in bold, capital letters, WE ARE NOT OPPOSED TO CHANGE.  However, we ARE opposed to change for no good reason other than to placate the whims of a handful of corps directors and board members.  And more importantly, we are opposed to sweeping changes that strip the activity of its entire identity and historical legacy, changes that have transformed (and continue to transform) the activity into something else entirely...something that already exists, and something that we didn't sign up for.  THAT is what is happening today.  And that is what we oppose.

There's the problem. Those are all arbitrary measures of the activity, when by and large these changes have occurred not in sweeping fashion but gradually. Somene in the 70s could say the same thing about 80s, 90s, or 00s, and i've been on DCP long enough to know they did. 

 

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So let me be clear on this.  I dig drum corps all the way through the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and a hanful of shows from the early 21st century.  My love for the activity does not revolve around the late 90s.  I enjoy the front ensembles of the 80s and 90s right alongside the marching xyolophones, glockenspiels and timpani of the 70s.  I enjoy listening to lines of three valve bugles right alongside those of two valves and piston/rotors.  I love watching guards in sequins twirling flags right alongside those in corps uniforms and skirts spinning rifles.  I love crab step and zip pulls just as much as I love high-step and circle drill.  I even enjoy finding old video recordings of corps playing at halftime at professional football games in the 60s (yeah, drum corps used to be THAT relevant).  The point is that despite the changes in equipment, regalia and rules of drum corps throughout the 20th century, it was still fundamentally the same thing; brass instruments (and I won't even say bugles) and drums playing music while marching and executing drill, while auxiliary spun rifles and twirled flags.  Sure, there was some dancing.  Sure, there were some props.  Sure, there was some esoteric, high concept preachiness.  But those things didn't define drum corps, neither individually nor as a horrifying gestalt.  They were isolated affairs, used in moderation, and almost never to the detriment of the enjoyment of the fans.

But that's not the case today.  Today, "drum corps" is nothing BUT esoteric, high concept preachiness, rolled up in interpretive dance performed on rickety, dangerous props that take up a quarter of the field, all wired up to sound systems dialed up to 11 belting out synthesized bass and piano, choir aahs, and ambient white noise while 2 or 3 people hop on microphones to explain to the audience what's going on.  Oh, and somewhere behind all that crap there are brass instruments and drums playing music some of the time, marching some of the time, playing and marching some of the time, and auxillary spinning rifles some of the time, and twirling flags some of the time, all when they're not too busy laying their equipment down on the field and dancing or rolling on the ground pretending like they're 3 years old.  What it genuinely feels like to us today is that the only reason the brass, percussion and color guard are even on the field is so that DCI can still call it "drum corps".  Otherwise, they're not doing a dang thing out there that a dance team and a MIDI keyboard couldn't do, at a fraction of the expense.

 

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Am I getting through to you at all?  Because I'm trying really, REALLY hard.  It's not because it isn't the same activity it was in the 90s, or the 80s, or the 70s, or even the bloody 1840s.  It's because it's not the same activity.......AT.  ALL.

 

I never said you only like 90s drum corps. But there are a lot of drum corps alums that think that all changes that happened after they marched are generally bad changes, and you seem to be one of those. The change that allowed drum corps to be what it was when you marched is ok, but that natural change continuing after you marched is somehow not, and you arbitrarily get to decide what is and what is not drum corps. 

And i say that as one who has also watched plenty of drum corps. I may have marched starting in 05, but i started following a few years before that, and watched a lot of dvds back in the day. They were all enjoyable in their own ways, but the universal constant was that those things kept changing. 

The fact that you think this

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Today, "drum corps" is nothing BUT esoteric, high concept preachiness,

and

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There is still some good music being played on the field, and there's still some good drill being executed.  But it's buried.  It's buried under a bunch of self indulgent crap

Just makes me feel sorry for you. You apparently go into shows just so blinded with hate  that you're unable to see the amazingness that is out there right now. 

Honestly though, if it has this effect on you, you probably should just walk. The one universal truth of drum corps is change and growth. It is not going to revert to what you want it to be. 

Edited by AlexL
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No, it's not blind hate.  It's eyes-wide-open sadness.  With the level of talent on the field, and the amount of money that goes into corps today.....there should be a heck of a lot more "amazingness" than there is.  And no one shoud have to grit their teeth and look/listen so hard to find it.

But you don't have to feel sorry for me.  I made an honest effort to reach out to you, and to try to establish some common ground, but you rebuked that effort.  So we're done.

Edited by Bobby L. Collins
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18 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Sure, and I get that.  I mean, I don't know anyone personally who enjoys it, outside of a handful of colleagues who are currently teaching with a drum corps and are being paid to enjoy it.....and not even all of them actually do enjoy it. But that doesn't mean what's happening in modern drum corps is good, or right, or even beneficial to anyone but the handful of executives and corps directors who push it.

What you're apparently asking me (and anyone else who loathes it) is to accept it is what it is, and to accept that it can't be toned down to reasonable, TOLERABLE levels.  And I can't accept that.  I won't.  If you twist my arm, sure I'm going to say that I think it's an abomination, and it should be banned, but I know that's not going to happen.  All I'm asking at this point is for corps to stop shoving high concept art down our throats, reel in the electronics and amplification, and stop putting the entire music department on the field.

I get that you like it, and that you want the narrative to be that the majority of fans like it, which is demonstrably untrue.  So perhaps instead of trying to open your eyes, I should simply ask you this.  Did YOU ever stop to consider that maybe...just maybe...some people actually DON'T enjoy the things that you do?

you dont have to accept it...you can move on.

 

DCI for 2 decades tried to appease the past while trying to grow the future. as a result, attendance levels crated twice. Finally they said "#### it", started going after the future, and the numbers are on the rise, Indy, Allentown, san Anotnio, and many other shows across the country. Slowly but surely new corps are starting. so they're on to something, and it's slowly starting to pay off. You dont have to like it, but no amount of online pissing and moaning will change it.

 

trust me, those of opposed to amps and electronics learned the hard way on here in 2003

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18 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

I agree with Jeff here, and I think he hits on a few key points. 

1) We still get plenty of brass, percussion, even marching (despite what some think) and some fabulous guard work

2) Much of the technology that was not around in the 70s or 80s (or it was too pricey) started to appear more and more in the commercial market in the 90s. With the availability of these tools it was only a matter of time before someone tried them. That came when top competitive bands began using these tools, especially in BOA. Some of this was overdone, even then. But there were glimpses of great ideas, and whether people like it or not drum corps designers were bound to take notice and eventually implement ways to use it themselves. We can ask the question "Was there more that could have been done to stop it?" but I don't know how you stop ideas and creativity. We live in a free country where ideas should be celebrated even when you disagree with them. It was never DCI's job to tell people "your ideas suck, go away." Nor was it DCI's job to say "there is only one way to do drum corps and we only wish to appeal to a certain type of person." Eventually someone was going to convince DCI and its' directors that trying amplification and electronic instruments needed to be tried.  I am certainly not against them and have seen some great shows use these tools well (Bluecoats for example).  So I do not wish to see electronics and amps leave, but I do believe we have hit a wall in terms of overuse and it may be time to pull back a bit. 

3) Jeff's point about his teaching experiences and how proud he is of his students who have marched and loved it is important to keep in mind.  I have had similar experiences. I've had many students march drum corps. Here is a quick example for you: I had one young man who marched a corps (will not name that group here) and it was a show I really didn't enjoy.  Every time I saw him that summer he was full of joy and loving the show and the tour experience.  It always reminded me that 1) we are not going to like everything, 2) the activity must remain about our youth, and they definitely live in a different culture from the one I grew-up in, and 3) drum & bugle corps is often a reflection of society, as are many forms of art, music, dance, theater. If you think you can stop these cultural forces from breaking through barriers and finding their way into the marching arts then you do not understand the human spirit and those who intend to push it, change it, modify it, expand it, and (in their minds) improve it. 

it was a former student marching in 2008 that got me to go back to Allentown after a 4 year absence. Then I saw Phantom. Then I fell back in love with drum corps

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18 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

I see no improvement in drum corps today.  Tougher drill designed by a computer algorithm, sure, but that was already happening before DCI went full techno.

It doesn't matter how much better the instruction or playing is today when it's buried beneath electronics or trickery.  It doesn't matter how impressive the choreography and drill is when they're all wearing ridiculous outfits that even the most socially awkward nerds on the planet would tease and bully them for wearing.  And it doesn't matter how hard the kids work when all their hard work is being overshadowed by the hubris of the design team and the corps' bank account.  

What I see and hear today is a parody of drum corps, if not a parody of performance art at large.

and what my grandfather who marched in the 40's and 50's saw in 76 Bayonne was viewed the same way.

 

it wont change back.

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25 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

you dont have to accept it...you can move on.

 

DCI for 2 decades tried to appease the past while trying to grow the future. as a result, attendance levels crated twice. Finally they said "#### it", started going after the future, and the numbers are on the rise, Indy, Allentown, san Anotnio, and many other shows across the country. Slowly but surely new corps are starting. so they're on to something, and it's slowly starting to pay off. You dont have to like it, but no amount of online pissing and moaning will change it.

 

trust me, those of opposed to amps and electronics learned the hard way on here in 2003

No, I'm sorry, I fundamentally and emphatically disagree with you.  And I simply can not move on from all this.  I put in too many years as a fan, a member, and a supporter to just "move on" and accept that this is ok simply because George Hopkins and his entourage of enablers say it's ok.

Well it's NOT ok.  This is not the way of the future.  It's a gigantic step backwards.

Edited by Bobby L. Collins
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18 hours ago, ShortAndFast said:

Objectively this is false. DCI tracks and publishes total season attendance, movie theater attendance, regionals attendance, championship attendance, live stream viewership. All are improved over the late '00s, and much improved over the mid 90s, and are trending up. Maybe they aren't as good as 1985 or 1975 - let's assume for the sake of argument they're not - they are still pretty good and improving.

Can I ask - why are you concerned that DCI markets itself successfully to band kids? This would seem like a success - where else are you going to get future participants and fans? - but you've raised it as a point of concern in several of your posts.

agreed. the fan who loves yesterdays shows are dying off. look at the once thriving alumni corps activity....shrinking a lot.

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17 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Disturbing?  Well good.  You SHOULD be disturbed.  You SHOULD be disturbed that entire drum corps are wearing spandex and lycra color guard outfits.  Because that SHOULD tell you exactly where Drum Corps International's priorities currently lie.

being modern and not beholden to 1972?

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17 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

by selling the souls of everyone involved to the Devil.

No.  Unacceptable.

 

And trying to market drum corps as a musical activity, when the music is being aggressively and shamelessly sidelined by interpretive dance and transcendental spirituality isn't going to fly much longer.

my soul is firmly with my God thank you, and I like where the activity is in many ways.But I appreciate your passion, even if misguided

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I have to look at Guardians from Texas, It was founded a few years ago by some 18 and 19 year olds, I think the director is 23 now.  I didn't care for their show but they had no problem getting 150 kids to pay money and perform with them.  I think the real issue with old school corps is finding kids who want to do it. It would almost be like doing civil war re-enactments of how things used to be.  I hate that it is no longer someone, a veteran or a priest taking a bunch of teenagers off the street, teaching thenm something musically and giving them a competivie drive to beat teh kids from the town next door. BUt that phase of corps is gone and I don't think it will ever come back,

 

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