A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?

[GUARDLING]

22 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

Social media apps and the WWW have absolute helped drum corps. I see that as a great thing. Whether or not today's shows would have been successful in the 80s or 90 -- and vice versa -- is anyone's guess; but it doesn't matter. It's only the present time that matters, and it seems to be working today. Youth today seem to like the activity. Who are we to tell them what they should like?  The activity back in the day had plenty of faults and I, for one, have no interest in returning to those days. 

True and although we do tell them what to do, same can be said for back in the day. These kids are very proud of everything they do and to say otherwise  imo is  disgraceful on so many levels. Sure do MMs like everything? maybe not everything BUT neither did we back in the day

If kids were so not into what they do they have millions of other choices out there. Way more than we ever had.

[jwillis35]

25 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Who are we to pigeonhole them into embracing all the sweeping changes they may or may not have asked for any more than we did?  They don't have a choice.  They either put on a spandex leotard and dance while playing into microphones, or they don't participate in the activity.

There ARE young people out there who would rather spin rifles and sabres and twirl flags instead of sashaying around the field waving jazz hands.  There ARE young people out there who would rather march intricate and well-polished drill instead of rolling around on the ground and dancing from one scatter drill to the next.  

As for your first paragraph, these kids do have a choice. They get to choose the corps they wish to march with, or they can stay home and march with their HS bands, or they can do something else. Those that are marching DCI seem pretty happy. Some of the changes made to DCI were done so because of student/marcher evaluations. I taught marching band techniques for many years during my college band director days. Over my last 8 years it was obvious that today's students have way different taste. I remember showing a class some Madison Scouts (1995, as part of drill vs music discussion) and while they liked it, they thought it was too old school and awkward. They liked the modern corps much better.  DCI cannot be all things to all kids. If it's not what some kids want, well too bad. Go find something else to do then. Life is tough and it's not DCI's job to ensure every kid who has a desire for a specific type of show gets what he/she wants. There are a variety of styles going on in DCI, and even more in HS/College marching band. Not everyone gets their way.

As for paragraph #2, I am sure there are young people that want those things. Why don't you do a survey of all the high school band kids in America and collect data on what they want in marching band and drum corps. Find out what kind of shows they like, styles, types of music, uniforms, etc. Until you do that you have no proof that somehow these kids are suffering and that somehow the kids presently marching DCI are also suffering and being forced to do things they dislike.  I mean, for crying out loud I probably disagreed with any number of things when I marched with a competitive youth band, my HS band, and my college band. So what? I still had fun and learned.  But until you start providing real evidence of some horrible circumstance in which DCI is keeping away thousands of poor souls who just can't stand today's styles then you're just guessing.  

To put it another way, you do not get to decide what is best for these kids. Neither do I.  The collective whole of the activity and the kids decide that. If audition camps are empty and corps begin struggling to find marchers, then they will adjust. Market 101. A single person with an idea on how things "SHOULD BE" can only do so much, and if you wish to be one of those people then get involved and start designing, teaching, administrating. Until then you're just another person with an idea.  I don't hate your ideas. Look, I grew up loving the 80s and early 90s. That doesn't mean I want to see them now. I don't. I am also progressive when it comes to art. Nonetheless, I have no problem with your ideas, it's simply that you want the activity to emulate YOUR vision. It will never do that. It will become what a collective of thousands of people make it. You have no control over that and neither do I. We can have a teeny bit of control if we get involved, but even then it's only a small fraction. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by jwillis35

[ShortAndFast]

33 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Who are we to pigeonhole them into embracing all the sweeping changes they may or may not have asked for any more than we did?  They don't have a choice.  They either put on a spandex leotard and dance while playing into microphones, or they don't participate in the activity.

There ARE young people out there who would rather spin rifles and sabres and twirl flags instead of sashaying around the field waving jazz hands.  There ARE young people out there who would rather march intricate and well-polished drill instead of rolling around on the ground and dancing from one scatter drill to the next.  And there ARE young people out there who would rather just throw down with some banging tunes instead of constantly exploring the transcendental boundaries of electronic sound like a bunch of avant-garde musicologists from the 1960s.  Those young people are for all purposes bared from the activity, unless they agree to abandon their convictions and personal integrity in order to fit in with the "cool kids".  Not every single high school marching band out there has adapted BOA's "Flash-Over-Substance" philosophy......not yet.  THOSE kids no longer have an activity like DCI, because what goes on in DCI isn't cool, or relevant, or even respectable to them.  Not only is DCI limiting accessibility to its audience of fans and vets, but it is also limiting accessibility to the very individuals it claims to represent and work for; Youth.

Supposing for the sake of argument that everything you said about young people these days was true ... so what?

If corps way down the lineup have big audition camps and full rosters, then they are finding plenty of young people who want what modern DCI has to offer.

Back when you marched, there were doubtlessly some kids who would have liked to experiment with electronics, or wanted to play more instruments in the front ensemble, or to sing on the field, or to dance rather than do drill. DCI and the corps of the time, politely I'm sure, told them to stuff it. If you wanted to do that stuff in 1997, then you did band, or winter guard, or dance, or musical theater or any number of other activities that suited your tastes/skills better than DCI. It's no different today.

[Bobby L. Collins]

3 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

As for your first paragraph, these kids do have a choice. They get to choose the corps they wish to march with, or they can stay home and march with their HS bands, or they can do something else. Those that are marching DCI seem pretty happy. Some of the changes made to DCI were done so because of student/marcher evaluations. I taught marching band techniques for many years during my college band director days. Over my last 8 years it was obvious that today's students have way different taste. I remember show a class some Madison Scouts (1995) and while they liked it, they thought it was too old school and awkward. They liked the modern corps much better.  DCI cannot be all things to all kids. If it's not what some kids want, well too bad. Go find something else to do then. Life is tough and it's not DCI's job to ensure every kid who has a desire for a specific type of show gets what he/she wants. There are a variety of styles going on in DCI, and even more in HS/College marching band. Not everyone gets their way.

As for paragraph #2, I am sure there are young people that want those things. Why don't you do a survey of all the high school band kids in America and collect data on what they want in marching band and drum corps. Find out what kind of shows they like, styles, types of music, uniforms, etc. Until you do that you have no proof that somehow these kids are suffering and that somehow the kids presently marching DCI are also suffering and being forced to do things they dislike.  I mean, for crying out loud I probably disagreed with any number of things when I marched with a competitive youth band, my HS band, and my college band. So what? I still had fun and learned. 

But until you start providing real evidence of some horrible circumstance in which DCI is keeping away thousands of poor souls who just can't stand today's styles then you're just guessing.  To put it another way, you do not get to decide what is best for these kids. The collective whole of the activity and the kids decide that. If audition camps are empty and corps begin struggling to find marchers, then they will adjust. Market 101. A single person with an idea on how things "SHOULD BE" can only do so much, and if you wish to be one of those people then get involved and start designing, teaching, administrating. Until then you're just another person with an idea.  I don't hate your ideas. Look, I grew up loving the 80s and early 90s. That doesn't mean I want to see them now. I don't. I am also progressive when it comes to art. Nonetheless, I have no problem with your ideas, it's simply that you want the activity to emulate YOUR vision. It will never do that. It will become what a collective of thousands of people make it. You have no control over that and neither do I. We can have a teeny bit of control if we get involved, but even then it's only a small fraction. 

 

It's not "my" vision.  It's the framework that DCI had already initiated, before it abandoned reason for madness.

But at the end of the day, my comments aren't really for you.  They're for the corps directors and techs who read the comments on this site.  Let them read mine, and let them read yours.  Let THEM decide if they should listen to former supporters who have become disenfranchised with the direction of the activity, or listen instead to enablers who blindly praise everything they do without question, and whose mantra is "leave the past in the past".  You say "If you want to change things, do something about it".  I AM doing something about it.  At least I'm trying.   All you're doing is saying that I shouldn't even bother to try.

I don't expect drum corps to go back to 2 valve bugles and high step marching.  But the sweeping changes that are transforming the activity from drum corps into summer guard and marching band MUST be reigned in, they MUST be scrutinized, and they MUST be re-evaluated.  By and large, 2017 shaped up to be a fairly forgettable season, whose recap sound byte on the DVD box set will be "This was the year of leotards, faulty electronics, and even bigger props".  The corps can not keep relying on total sensory overload just to win a medal.  At some point, things MUST go back to a sensible balance between "innovation" and "expense", or else even the founders are going to fold.

 

[Bobby L. Collins]

35 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

 same can be said for back in the day.

THERE IT IS.  Been wondering when you were going to post that.

[BRASSO]

3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

We have already debunked that assertion, as there were nowhere near the number of Quebec/Ontario corps that Jeff claimed, and most of them did attend DCIs beyond just the Montreal years.  But if the Canadian draw really had such record-breaking gravity, maybe DCI should have kept staging events in Canada.

My question is the logical corollary to your #1.  If changes are so good, then why did attendance and participation decline all through the 70s and 80s despite the massive changes DCI made in those years?

 In fairness to DCI, the loss of Drum Corps numbers predates the formation of DCI itself in 1972. The1960's saw a lot of Corps fold, for a host of reasons... loss of VFW/ AL support....loss of Church funding support for others.... the reinstitution and escalation of a military draft in the 60's.....a myriad of other reasons, both social, political, cultural, economic. ( too many to go into in detail at the moment)

 The loss of more Corps did take place and escalates under DCI's watch it must be said too however, as there were far more Corps, marchers in the early years of DCI than there are at present. With the loss of Corps, naturally there becomes the battle to both retain fans as well as grow new fans. When Corps fold, sometimes their fan bases, alums, familiies, friends of those Corps stop going to shows. DCI also changed its Corps more than any other similiar youth endeavor has ever transformed itself. Such radical transformation in the activity did not sit well with lots of fans from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and DCI lost hundreds of thousands of followers of the activity. In the 70's, 80's, DCI was on live TV telecast on PBS. For over  a decade, pledges came in in sufficient numbers for DCI and PBS to carry the Finals Night live. However, pledges began to decline, viewership numbers began to fall... eventually PBS decided to no longer broadcast the Finals either Live or on a Delayed Broadcast basis.  Ironically, The DCI Super Corps were getting bigger stronger and better during this national TV exposure loss.. Attendance at Championships remained static, within a few thousand, no matter the venue selected. DCI was bringing in new fans, but it could never grow its fan base, as for each new fan that arrived, another 1 or 2 left for one reason or another. DCI has been able to stem the loss of fans the last few years and has had a very slight uptick a Regionals and at Championships in attendance the last couple of years... but the number of Corps, shows, attendance pales to what it was in the 80's. DCI does not see its primary " customers " as its fans that purchase $ 35-100 tickets. it sees its primary customers as " students" that pay thousands of dollars each for the right to participate in its offerings. So its focus has been on meeting their needs, and to that extent then, DCI has been an undeniable success, imo.

Edited August 15, 2017 by BRASSO

[oldcadetsop]

5 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

 

It's not "my" vision.  It's the framework that DCI had already initiated, before it abandoned reason for madness.

But at the end of the day, my comments aren't really for you.  They're for the corps directors and techs who read the comments on this site.  Let them read mine, and let them read yours.  Let THEM decide if they should listen to former supporters who have become disenfranchised with the direction of the activity, or listen instead to enablers who blindly praise everything they do without question, and whose mantra is "leave the past in the past".  You say "If you want to change things, do something about it".  I AM doing something about it.  At least I'm trying.   All you're doing is saying that I shouldn't even bother to try.

I don't expect drum corps to go back to 2 valve bugles and high step marching.  But the sweeping changes that are transforming the activity from drum corps into summer guard and marching band MUST be reigned in, they MUST be scrutinized, and they MUST be re-evaluated.  By and large, 2017 shaped up to be a fairly forgettable season, whose recap sound byte on the DVD box set will be "This was the year of leotards, faulty electronics, and even bigger props".  The corps can not keep relying on total sensory overload just to win a medal.  At some point, things MUST go back to a sensible balance between "innovation" and "expense", or else even the founders are going to fold.

 

LOL. give it up already . It is now becoming pathetic.

 

As I said yesterday, at times you bring up points, but the second you make comments like "This is the year of leotards etc.  You again lose credibility. Grow up and find a new hobby if you dislike DCI so much.

[GUARDLING]

6 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

THERE IT IS.  Been wondering when you were going to post that.

Wanna deny it?or dont you have actual experience to address the statement

[oldcadetsop]

4 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

Wanna deny it?or dont you have actual experience to address the statement

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GUARDLING]

4 minutes ago, oldcadetsop said:

LOL. give it up already . It is now becoming pathetic.

 

As I said yesterday, at times you bring up points, but the second you make comments like "This is the year of leotards etc.  You again lose credibility. Grow up and find a new hobby if you dislike DCI so much.

 

3 minutes ago, oldcadetsop said:

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's so many good people out there from Back in the day who either still teach, judge, volunteer, are on Boards, etc etc. You can look to so many corps this year who their alumni came out in full support. It's a shame that apologies constantly have to be made for a few...A very few