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A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?


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On 8/9/2017 at 6:45 PM, Bobby L. Collins said:

Absolutely they could have done more.  And to quote Saboo from The Mighty Boosh, "The box is there for a reason".

One of the biggest criticisms I read about G bugles is how hard to play they were and how out of tune they were (criticisms almost universally voiced by individuals who have never even held a bugle, much less played one).  Well let me tell you something.  The only thing wrong with G bugles was the individuals playing them, and the instructors trying to teach  said individuals how to play them.  You can't listen to Phantom 94's ballad or Spirit 80's closer or Madison 75's concert piece and try to act like those kids didn't know how to play those bugles.  In 1997, i spent the entire summer playing a 2 valve soprano, and it was no harder to play than my intermediate model Yamaha trumpet, or any Bach Stradivarius or Yamaha Xeno I had ever (or have still ever) played.  That bugle made me a better player and a better musician, and any intonation issues it had were entirely on MY end.  At the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the performer to play in tune, not the equipment.  And in many cases throughout the years with many different corps, the instructors simply didn't emphasize intonation, and it wouldn't have made a difference if they were playing on concert equipment, or bugles,  or even vuvuzelas.  Since that time I've played piston rotors and 3 valve bugles, and again, the only intonation issues I ever had were the result of the player, not the horns.  A lot of people like to act like playing bugles was like playing a Conn 16E mellophone, and the bottom line is that very few of those people ever even played a bugle (or a 16E, for that matter), and they don't know their brass from a hole in the ground.  And they have certainly never stood in front of a bugle line live.  They like to cite modern parking lot warmups of trumpets, mellophones, baritones and tubas playing unison lip slurs or alternating between fortissississimo pedal tones and open fifths, and gush about how great it sounds, and ask questions like "How can you even compare G bugles with this sound?"  and my response to them is "Because I've heard both live.  You're trying to compare digital audio recorded on a smartphone yesterday with low fidelity 20, 30 and 40 year-old analog clips you didn't hear live.  How can YOU compare them?".

I am a professional musician, composer and arranger.  It is my business to hear things.  And I can hear all the tricks they are pulling in the modern activity to prompt fanboys on the internet to gush about how in tune modern corps are.  Tricks like playing unisons or open fifths while a synthesizer plays the third (and before someone says "can you provide an example?", yeah I can......ALL of them).  Tricks like covering up intonation issues with ambient choir aahs or stacked whole-note clusters in the front ensemble.  And, most notoriously, tricks like amplifying the better players while those who can't play in tune run up and down props.  No, it's not the expensive concert instruments what has made corps sound more "in-tune", it's the level of trickery and deception of the audio engineers.  All you have to do is listen to corps in victory formations.  Sure, they sound terrific, but by God they're not in any better tune than bugle lines of yesteryear.  Madison's closer in 2011 is a beautiful arrangement, but their pitch was all over the place (particularly the miked soloists).  So I'm pretty fed up with people who don't know what they're talking about trying to rewrite history to suit their own agendas.  Bugles were no harder to play than any other brass instrument.  It all came down to the competence of the performers and the instructors.  And I strongly feel there is STILL a world to be explored with bugles and their timbre (not to mention their volume, which a lot of these bugle naysayers never once experienced for themselves, and constantly speak out of complete and utter ignorance). Imagine (if you can) your favorite 21-st century production, without amplification, played on the same equipment that Madison Scouts' hornline used to bring down the house in 1995....equipment that relied upon talented performers being allowed to explore the full power of their instruments, rather than upon the full power of their sound system and speakers.  

What it comes down to is that there are hardly any active instructors or techs today who have themselves ever played a G bugle, and are inherently intimidated by them, or the prospect of trying to teach anyone how to play them.  It's not rocket surgery.  Have the trumpets, baritones, and tubas hold down their third valve.  Guess what, now you're in the key of G, now let's pretend you're playing a two-valve bugle and go from there.  A little more complex for mellophones, but any instructor worth his/her salt could figure it out with a simple Google search.  Furthermore, none of the active instructors or techs savor having to teach the baritones and contras how to read treble clef.  Again, not rocket surgery. They teach that in elementary school, for pete's sake.  For a music educator, teaching brass students to play a G bugle is no different than teaching a brass student to transpose, and if a music educator can't teach someone to transpose, then perhaps they're in the wrong field of study.  It's all a matter of convenience, and it's just more convenient for modern corps' massive team of brass instructors to roll with marching band equipment than it is to try to learn how to use the equipment that gave this entire activity its identity.

The directors, meanwhile, cite money.  "Bugles are just too expensive to maintain".  They're no more expensive to maintain than the equipment they're using today.  The ONLY difference is that they can't flip their entire hornline at the end of the tour so they can go out and buy a brand new one the next year.  Whoopty-freakin-dooooo.  That's some entitled snowflakiness, right there.  There's nothing wrong with using your line of horns until they can no longer be repaired........that used to be the golden path.  THAT used to be how you saved money.  And it could very easily be that way again.  I know for a fact there are instrument repairmen out there struggling for work at this very moment, repairmen who would love nothing more than to refurbish your entire line of bugles at a competitive discount, or perhaps even offer their services on tour with your corps.  But that's not an option for corps today, they're so spoiled, and feel like they can't function or be competitive on used equipment.....horse hockey.  Buying new horns every year is a ludicrous, excessive, and needless expense, demonstrative of how misaligned DCI's priorities have become.

Now, all I've even covered is the G bugles, which was the first button of mine that DCI pushed.  I haven't even begun to answer your question, and I have MUCH more to say on this matter......MUCH more.......but there are only 24 hours in a day, so I'll simply say, more to come.

 

I actually just wanted to see where and how you entered this discussion and I almost TL-DR this.  But now I'm wondering who you're NOT going to bash in your rants, and I can't wait for you to demonstrate your expertise in the percussion section (presuming I read all of your posts here and elsewhere, which is questionable.

What's clear to me is that you don't understand the point of having equipment contracts that allow corps to sell their used horns.  Corps actually make money on the schemes, so your whole notion of keeping used horns around begs the question: Why?

 

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10 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 I don't care what you do. I was there. So I wouldn't need you, nor the DCI office from 1997 to tell me what I saw.  The DCI officials in 1981 reported what the Attendance was that night. They posted it. Paid numbers too.. I've got a picture stored in my computer files  of that 35,947 figure from the stadium jumbotron as announced by DCI that nite at the time too. So thats all I need. I don't need any further validation from anyone frankly. So we're cool.

I was there too. 45 yard line, side 2. I've also been in the venue for baseball games. When your dad housed players for the Expos AA affiliate, they remember you when they get to the show and send your freebies. 

 

and we all know over the decades DCI hasn't been honest about a lot of things

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10 hours ago, Stu said:

Star Wars; no.  Space Balls, good chance!

i dont wanna know how big your schwartz is

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:25 PM, Bobby L. Collins said:

Yesterday, I gave my thoughts on the loss of bugles.  Today, my thoughts on electronics and amplification.

For me, 2005 was the turning point where I went from "Well it sucks they stopped using bugles, but it's still drum corps" to "What in the name of Odin's Beard are they even doing out there??".  Without going back and watching 2005 finals (which I haven't done in a while), the things that really turned me off were not being able to hear brass ballads because of all the amplified marimbas and suspended cymbals, and being totally distracted and taken out of the moment when someone hopped on a microphone and either started trying to sing sprechstimme, or scatting drum features into microphones rather than actually performing them on their drums, which was the only reason in the world they auditioned to be in a drum corps in the first place.  It was even worse the next year, and just kept getting progressively worse each and every year.  The excessive narration has been a massive button of mine corps seem to enjoy pushing. I don't know which year "YOWZA YOWZA YOWZA" is from, nor do I care.  As far as I'm concerned, that is one of the worst top 12 productions to ever be put on the field.  Would have probably been fine if the guy hadn't been literally screaming into a microphone throughout the entire show, completely covering up anything that was happening musically (I really don't blame that guy, after all, he was just doing what they told him to do, but the sound of his voice still makes me want to blaspheme, even after all these years).  And I know that show has its fans, who defend it by reminding me how wonderfully it fit in with the theme of the show.  My response to them has always been "If I want to listen to a radio DJ narrate a dance competition, I'll turn on the bloody radio in 1953.  I certainly won't pay 50 bucks to try to listen to a drum corps play over that crap".

Then we got keyboard synthesizers, electric violins, drum machines, and prerecorded samples.  Synthesized bass that makes tuba lines superfluous and redundant.  Vocal choirs monopolizing an uncomfortable portion of the corps' allotted time on the field.  Sampled brass patches filling in the thirds and fifths for corps that only know how to play unison roots in tune.  Clip-on microphones.  And professional audio engineers that very likely get paid twice as much as any corps' entire staff combined.  And the same level of audio trickery that's employed today by audio engineers and mixers in pop music.  I didn't ask for any of this.  I don't know any who asked for any of this.  As far as I know, the only person who asked for any of this was George Hopkins.  But people in this activity like to put him on a pedestal and kow-tow to his every whim, so now there's a generation of drum corps instructors, members and age-outs who think it's all perfectly normal, and essential to win medals.  Well let me tell you something; there's absolutely nothing...NOTHING normal about this.  

If it were just one thing every now and again, that would be a different matter.  A miked marimba solo during a front ensemble feature.....ok.  But a miked marimba playing four-mallet rolls on soft yarn drowning out the hit of a ballad with the hornline at full power?  Come on.

A few seconds of synthesized ambiance during a transition where the colorguard is in the front and the hornline is stretching out a curve in the back?........ok.  But 8 to 10 minutes of synthesized ambiance drowning out an entire production?   Come on.

A sampled pitch bend near the final note of a production?  Well, ok.  I'd rather hear a full power chord, which the corps is more than capable of executing, but whatever.  But sampled (and autotuned) brass that is genuinely replacing the horns on the field for significant portions of a show, or filling in the 3rds and fifths of park'n'bark chords in order to give smug trolls on YouTube the satisfaction of boasting about how much better in tune corps are today?  Come on.

Vocal choirs consisting of uniformed members of the corps congregating for a 20-second, unamplified feature?  Sure, why not?  That is not without precedent.  But amplified groups of dedicated singers who don't march a single step during the entire production, both masking and drowning out the performers behind them as they stand front and center on costly and rickety props?  Come on.

A clip on microphone for a soloist?  Well, high schools have been doing that for a long time, and that's very much a high school thing to do.  But clip on microphones for all the ringers in the corps to give the illusion that the sound the audience is hearing is representative of what the corps actually sounds like?  Come on. 

Having an auxiliary member of the corps operate the on-off switch for a modest amount of electronics used tastefully and with at least a shred of restraint during a show?  Ok, still anathema to me, but at least it's a member of the corps doing it.  But paying a professional audio engineer to manipulate the sound of a production via trickery and deceit, cheapening the efforts of the entire cadre of corps members?  All in the name of "art" and "progress" and "G.E."??  COME ON!

A modern drum corps show looks and sounds like someone turned on every single television in the electronics department at Wal-Mart, then put each television on a different channel, then did the same thing with all the stereos and put them all on different radio stations, and then, for good measure, fired up some video games on top of all that...then pulled the fire alarm.  Whom does this serve??  Excess is the very word to describe it.  It's too much.  I feel like it caters to people with attention deficit disorder, or at the very least people who keep their nose buried in their smartphone all the time.  I mean, I'm not even joking when I say that I fully expect to see giant fidget spinners on the field next year.  It's an out-of-control circus of bedlam and sensory overload.  All the dinosaurs (and a growing number of milennials) are asking for at this point is to either ban it, or else to reel it in, practice some moderation and restraint, stop relying on it as a pure crutch to be competitive, and stop shoving it down our throats.

I have (well, had) a really good friend who is an alcoholic, who flat out refuses to seek help for his addiction, and who spends every waking hour validating his alcohol abuse.  I tried so hard to help him, but he simply became intolerable to the point where I felt like it was better for me to get as far away from him as possible.  That's very much what I feel like I'm dealing with when it comes to fans and proponents of electronics and amplification; people who are so addicted to that sensory overload that they refuse to even consider how damaging it is to the activity.  They make me so angry.  I know most of them don't even really like it, they just roll with whatever the "popular" opinion is, and among ticket holders the popular opinion is that esoteric avant-garde art performance is the future of DCI.  They are to drum corps what the New Vienna School was to classical music. Damaging.

Bottom line is that all the electronics and amplification are perverting DCI's mission statement, they're doing a gross disservice to the fans and to the young people participating in the activity, and they're cheapening the art form in the eyes and ears of many, many people.  While I fundamentally believe that electronics and amplification should be banned entirely from the activity, I know that's never going to happen.  The box is open.  But as stated yesterday, the box is there for a reason.  And at some point, someone is going to have to close that box.  Because this can't continue.  I think even George Hopkins understands that now.

Now, back to the OP's question.  Was all this a result of the drum and bugle corps running out of artistic creativity and innovation?  No.  It was born out of one man's vanity.  Drum and bugle corps had plenty of room to grow without the perversion of amplification or ProTools.  As stated before, Cavaliers 2002 was just a taste of what it could have become.  But that train is sailed.  It's no longer about innovation or artistic creativity.  At this point, it's all about damage control, and catering to the whims of Winter Guard International and Bands of America. 

Tomorrow, I'll address the third nodal point; Gesticulation (I'll try to come up with a better word for it before then).

This one, yea, forget it.  TL-DR.  Figure out how to make your point is less than War & Peace sized posts and I'll pay attention.

Please, why not just start a thread called "Bobby's view of Drum Corps and All the Rest are Wrong" and post all of your spewing in there.

I've never banned anyone, ever in DCP but I'm beginning to wonder where I find that Ban-Button (and something tells me you have yours at the ready all the time, to ban those who disagree with you like the alcoholic friend you abandoned). 

Edited by garfield
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2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

If the DCI office really provides such false and misleading information, that is truly sad.

Following is a list of the competing corps in the 1981 DCI Championships, and their state or province of origin.

All-Girl

Chatelaines (Quebec)
Arbella (MA)
St. Ignatius Girls (NY)
Ventures (Ontario)
Brantford Girls (Ontario)
Bandettes (Ontario)
CapitolAires (WI)
Mello-Dears (NY)
Suburbanettes (NH)
Joanettes (MA)

Class A

Southernaires (LA)
Fantasia III (NJ)
Pioneer (WI)
Dutch Boy (Ontario)
Etoiles Dorion (Quebec)
Golden Garrison (MI)
Bluewater Buccaneers (Ontario)
Amvet Brigadiers (MA)
Aventuriers (Quebec)
Greece Cadets (NY)
Cavalliers (MA)
General Putnam's Men (OH)
New York Lancers (NY)
Valley Airs (MA)
2nd Decade (Quebec)
Sundowners (WI)
Mt. Prospect Imperials (IL)
Alliance Musicale (Quebec)
Newmarket Ambassadors (Ontario)
Emerald Knights (IA)
Florida Wave (FL)
Fantasia (CT)
Coachmen (MI)
Spartans (WA)
Lockport Blazers (NY)
Vaqueros (IL)
Madison Jr. Scouts (WI)
Volunteers (NY)
Starisers (MA)
Malden Diplomats (MA)
Rochester Patriots (NY)
I.C. Queensmen (MA)
Citations (MA)
Gauchos (NY)
Pacific Blue (British Columbia)
Buccaneers (MA)
Niagara Frontiersmen (NY)
Firebirds (NY)
St. Andrew's (Ontario)

Open Class

Santa Clara Vanguard (CA)
Blue Devils (CA)
Madison Scouts (WI)
27th Lancers (MA)
Bridgemen (NJ)
Phantom Regiment (IL)
Garfield Cadets (NJ)
Crossmen (PA)
Spirit of Atlanta (GA)
Cavaliers (IL)
Troopers (WY)
Freelancers (CA)
North Star (MA)
Sky Ryders (KS)
Guardsmen (IL)
Blue Stars (WI)
Defenders (MA)
Memphis Blues Brass Band (TN)
Knights (IL)
Seattle Imperials (WA)
Suncoast Sound (FL)
Avant Garde (NY)
Rivermen (MN)
Valley Fever (CA)
Boston Crusaders (MA)
San Jose Raiders (CA)
Alliance (MA)
Colts (IA)
Squires (NY)
Pride of Cincinnati (OH)
Bluecoats (OH)
Imperial Guard (IN)
Velvet Knights (CA)
Eclipses (Quebec)
Arc-en-Ciel (Quebec)
Long Island Kingsmen (NY)
Saginaires (MI)
Glassmen (OH)
Southwind (AL)
Buckeye State Caballaros (OH)
General Butler Vagabonds (PA)
1st Canadian Regiment (Alberta)
Black Watch (NJ)
C.M.C.C. Warriors (NY)
Americanos (WI)
Cranford Patriots (NJ)
Royal Grenadiers (IL)
Valiant Knights (OK)
Kilts (WI)

Like I said before, only 14 of these corps were from Quebec or Ontario, not 30-40 as you or your alleged DCI office contact claim.  Do you or your DCI office source still wish to dispute that?

As for this myth that all Canadian corps were scholastic programs in 1981, please let us know which schools each of those corps was affiliated with.  My current understanding is that St. Andrew's was affiliated with a school by that name in Cambridge, Ontario, but that may be the only one.  The Brantford Girls began as a school sponsored corps (St. John's Girls), but that connection ended in 1964 when the school went all-male.

i have asked for clarification. 

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On 8/10/2017 at 3:02 PM, Bobby L. Collins said:

Am I wrong?

If so, then why don't you talk about it?  I've brought some insight to the table.  Can you do the same?

You haven't brought any insight here at all.  All of these discussion have been had many times here; you're only adding your opinions to the banter, that's all.  And your comments and opinions are no more weighty or insightful than the multitude of visitors to these pages in the past.

So far I only relate to you as a clown, lots of animation and not much to take seriously or remember.

 

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6 hours ago, Fred Windish said:

Always the possibility actual GENERAL ADMISSION tickets were issued to performing members back in the days before wristband admittance. I've seen that occur. I'll just say, I was at Montreal, too. The crowd in the seats appeared quite large.

Oh, yes . . .  chairback seating with armrests spreads things out from the bleacher look, too!

That might be a possibility. I miss the open seating days for dawn admission prelims in Whitewater. Early risers were rewarded and we waited in lines peacefully and preserved our seating area without resorting to fisticuffs.

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18 minutes ago, garfield said:

This one, yea, forget it.  TL-DR.  Figure out how to make your point is less than War & Peace sized posts and I'll pay attention.

Please, why not just start a thread called "Bobby's view of Drum Corps and All the Rest are Wrong" and post all of your spewing in there.

I've never banned anyone, ever in DCP but I'm beginning to wonder where I find that Ban-Button (and something tells me you have yours at the ready all the time, to ban those who disagree with you like the alcoholic friend you abandoned. 

See?  It's so easy to identify to people who have had been complicit in the dilution of this activity.  Your refusal to listen to those all around you who have been saying "This isn't right, this shouldn't be happening" for the past 17 years, coupled with your refusal to afford someone the courtesy of reading their thoughts on the subject, acting instead like a 12 year-old internet troll, that tells me precisely how closed-minded and vapid you are.  Fine, I'd rather know that now than later.  I'm not here to jump in the circle and scream along with you in your little echo chamber.  I'm here to voice the opinions and thoughts of a growing number of THOUSANDS of drum corps fans who have already written you off.  I don't care if you like it.  I don't care if you approve of it.  I don't even care if you read a single word I type.  But if you're not going to........then you have absolutely no business replying.  Because when you do so, you don't have a leg to stand on.  All you are is a troll, and everyone who isn't in your little group of sunshine pumpers will recognize and label you as such.

 

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1 minute ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

See?  It's so easy to identify to people who have had been complicit in diluting this activity.  Your refusal to listen to those all around you who have been saying "This isn't right, this shouldn't be happening" for the past 17 years, coupled with your refusal to afford someone the courtesy of reading their thoughts on the subject, acting instead like a 12 year-old internet troll, that tells me precisely how closed-minded and vapid you are.  Fine, I'd rather know that now than later.  I'm not here to jump in the circle and scream along with you in your little echo chamber.  I'm here to voice the opinions and thoughts of a growing number of THOUSANDS of drum corps fans who have already written you off.  I don't care if you like it.  I don't care if you approve of it.  I don't even care if you read a single word I type.  But if you're not going to........then you have absolutely not business replying.  Because when you do so, you don't have a leg to stand on.  All you are is a troll, and everyone who isn't in your little group of sunshine pumpers will recognize and label you as such.

 

Uhhh...wow.

Can someone who's been doing something for more than a decade be called a Troll?  LOL.  Troll.  I've been called lots of things here, but never a "troll".  LOL

I wonder how many more ways you can find to insult someone who disagrees with something you say.  But I don't think I'll have to wait long.

You have some real anger issues you need fixed, Bobby-boy.

"THOUSANDS"!  Show me, bub.

 

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12 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

See?  It's so easy to identify to people who have had been complicit in the dilution of this activity.  Your refusal to listen to those all around you who have been saying "This isn't right, this shouldn't be happening" for the past 17 years, coupled with your refusal to afford someone the courtesy of reading their thoughts on the subject, acting instead like a 12 year-old internet troll, that tells me precisely how closed-minded and vapid you are.  Fine, I'd rather know that now than later.  I'm not here to jump in the circle and scream along with you in your little echo chamber.  I'm here to voice the opinions and thoughts of a growing number of THOUSANDS of drum corps fans who have already written you off.  I don't care if you like it.  I don't care if you approve of it.  I don't even care if you read a single word I type.  But if you're not going to........then you have absolutely no business replying.  Because when you do so, you don't have a leg to stand on.  All you are is a troll, and everyone who isn't in your little group of sunshine pumpers will recognize and label you as such.

 

In before the ban.

If you gave him half a chance, you might have discovered some common ground and added some worthy discussion.

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