A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?

[Bobby L. Collins]

Wrong.

You're attempting to counter my arguments with non-arguments.  

Let's define "insult".

"speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse."

Being small-minded is a human condition.  It's not an insult.  And instead of trying to use that as a threat to cajole me into silence, it might make more sense to try to figure out why being called small-minded is such a button-pusher with you guys, and why it causes you to instantly lash out and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's true.

Furthermore, it's not an insult to point out that kids in corps today are wearing color guard outfits.  They ARE color guard outfits.  They're spandex leotards, and they look ridiculous.  That's not an insult.  That's apparent to every single objective member of the drum corps community who doesn't have their head buried in George Hopkins' sandbox.  It's not an insult to point out that they're there to march and play, and not to dance or roll around.  It shouldn't cost $4,000.00 a year to dance and roll around on a football field....in leotards.  These aren't insults.  They're common sense.  You're only labeling them as "insults" because I'm striking a nerve.  A nerve which, deep down, is telling you that I'm right.  And you don't like, not one bit.  I don't care.  I want you to not like that.  I WANT you to come to terms with what you've helped bring into being.  I want you to wake up, open your eyes, look on the field and listen to the mess out there and say "What have I done?".  THAT is the only way forward for drum corps.  Opening our eyes and ears and saying "Ok, we've gone too far.  We need to scale this back, before we destroy ourselves".

I will treat those who treat ME with respect in like kind.  You lot don't do that here.  You lot have NEVER done that.  When someone disagrees with you, you do precisely what oldcadetscorps and stu have been doing for pages and pages.  You talk bollocks and make personal attacks.  You won't do that to me and expect any level of respect from my end.

So stop trying to invent insults just because you aren't comfortable with what I'm saying.  Trust me, I can think of some actual insults that would make your ancestors cry.  But I won't give you the satisfaction.  My business is with drum corps, where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.  Not with hive-mind trolls.

And guys, if you don't want to be labelled by me as a troll......then stop acting like one.  Let's talk about the issues, instead.  Otherwise, get ignored.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Bobby L. Collins

[BRASSO]

20 minutes ago, garfield said:

 

If DCI announces that 35,000 paid receipts were totalled at finals, and they reported on 20,000 actual on their 990 reporting, what do you think the IRS would ask?

 

 

 It depends on the IRS Agent(s) handling the Audit. Anyone that thinks they know what questions the IRS agent(s) will ask in an IRS  Audit with any assumption of either the type of questions that will be asked, and what it will lead to from there is exhibiting a confidence not shared by most Accountants. CPA's Tax Attorney's that I know.. But we really are getting into the weeds here with the creation of fictional dialogues. Its a huge leap to think that DCI in 1981 inflated their paid receipt numbers, and intentionally  misrepresented themselves to the public with an intentionally inflated Finals Night Attendance Figure. My guess, the very same small numbe of DCI apologists here on DCP that are willing to accept that DCI  might have inflated the attendance figures in 1980's ( with NO Evidence to support the charge ) would get a case of the vapors if someone came onto DCI this morning with the charge that DCI inflated their Attendance figures this season and they are somehow bogus. That cadre of DCP'ers would be calling that poster all sorts of names and demanding over and over again for proof that DCI was engaging in fraud. So no. Most people accept that DCI reporting of paid receipt attendance figures is not cooked up numbers. Not in 1981. Not in 1997. And not this year. And when DCI  has their annual filings, they are providing their Accountants, Tax attorney's honest, ethical and legitimate paid receipt numbers, in order to file with the IRS, numbers that represent true numbers, not fictional, made up numbers.

Edited August 16, 2017 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

3 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Wrong.

You're attempting to counter my arguments with non-arguments.  

Let's define "insult".

"speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse."

Being small-minded is a human condition.  It's not an insult.  And instead of trying to use that as a threat to cajole me into silence, it might make more sense to try to figure out why being called small-minded is such a button-pusher with you guys, and why it causes you to instantly lash out and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's true.

I will treat those who treat ME with respect in like kind.  You lot don't do that here.  You lot have NEVER done that.  When someone disagrees with you, you do precisely what oldcadetscorps and stu have been doing for pages and pages.  You talk bollocks and make personal attacks.  You won't do that to me and expect any level of respect from my end.

So stop trying to invent insults just because you aren't comfortable with what I'm saying.  Trust me, I can think of some actual insults that would make your ancestors cry.  But I won't give you the satisfaction.  My business is with drum corps, where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.  Not with hive-mind trolls.

And guys, if you don't want to be labelled by me as a troll......then stop acting like one.  Let's talk about the issues, instead.  Otherwise, get ignored.

There seems to be many people here who have that impression of your posts SO with that said maybe it's time to evaluate HOW you deliver your message. Something tells me it's not the 1st time you have heard this. Just sayin.

[oldcadetsop]

5 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Wrong.

You're attempting to counter my arguments with non-arguments.  

Let's define "insult".

"speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse."

Being small-minded is a human condition.  It's not an insult.  And instead of trying to use that as a threat to cajole me into silence, it might make more sense to try to figure out why being called small-minded is such a button-pusher with you guys, and why it causes you to instantly lash out and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's true.

I will treat those who treat ME with respect in like kind.  You lot don't do that here.  You lot have NEVER done that.  When someone disagrees with you, you do precisely what oldcadetscorps and stu have been doing for pages and pages.  You talk bollocks and make personal attacks.  You won't do that to me and expect any level of respect from my end.

So stop trying to invent insults just because you aren't comfortable with what I'm saying.  Trust me, I can think of some actual insults that would make your ancestors cry.  But I won't give you the satisfaction.  My business is with drum corps, where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.  Not with hive-mind trolls.

And guys, if you don't want to be labelled by me as a troll......then stop acting like one.  Let's talk about the issues, instead.  Otherwise, get ignored.

LOL .  Bollocks. Personal attacks by me...........where?

 

LOL make my ancestors cry. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM tuff guy.

You say you are an educator? If my sons had you as a teacher I would pull them out of your class in a second.

 

oh and BTW, its oldcadetsop. Not oldcadetcorps. Just saying there Rocky Top

Edited August 16, 2017 by oldcadetsop
addition

[GUARDLING]

13 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 It depends on the IRS Agent(s) handling the Audit. Anyone that thinks they know what questions the IRS agent(s) will ask in an IRS  Audit with any assumption of either the type of questions that will be asked, and what it will lead to from there is exhibiting a confidence not shared by most Accountants. CPA's Tax Attorney's that I know.. But we really are getting into the weeds here with the creation of fictional dialogues. Its a huge leap to think that DCI in 1981 inflated their paid receipt numbers, and intentionally  misrepresented themselves to the public with an intentionally inflated Finals Night Attendance Figure. My guess, the very same small numbe of DCI apologists here on DCP that are willing to accept that DCI  might have inflated the attendance figures in 1980's ( with NO Evidence to support the charge ) would get a case of the vapors if someone came onto DCI this morning with the charge that DCI inflated their Attendance figures this season and they are somehow bogus. That cadre of DCP'ers would be calling that poster all sorts of names and demanding over and over again for proof that DCI was engaging in fraud. So no. Most people accept that DCI reporting of paid receipt attendance figures is not cooked up numbers. Not in 1981. Not in 1997. And not this year. And when DCI  has their annual filings, they are pervding their Accountants, Tax attorney's honest and ethical and legitimate paid receipt numbers, in order to file with the IRS, numbers that represent true numbers, not fictional numbers.

I think most people don't really care. You ask for proof of inflated numbers yet the only proof you have they weren't is an announcement or a jumbotron.  IRS reported numbers are one thing, a campaign can be quite different. BUT does it really matter anyway. Maybe for some it might. who knows.

Edited August 16, 2017 by GUARDLING

[BRASSO]

24 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

, announcements to the general drum corps public should be taken with a grain of salt.

 However, we have DCP posters on here talking a lot about DCI increased attendance figures this season and recent seasons. Now, you're saying we should  take those DCI attendance figures at Regionals, Championships this season and most recent season's... " with a grain of salt " ? Why ? I accept them. Don't you ?

Edited August 16, 2017 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

9 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 However, we have DCP posters on here talking a lot about DCI increased attendance figures this season and recent seasons. Now, you're saying we should  take those DCI attendance figures at Regionals, Championships this season and most recent season's... " with a grain of salt " ? Why ? I accept them. Don't you ?

Naw I take it all with a grain of salt I guess. But I see what youre saying

[Bobby L. Collins]

53 minutes ago, ShortAndFast said:

Who do you believe should set the direction of DCI?

I agree with you that there are thousands of ex-DCI fans who left because of changes since 2000, but ... so what? What gives them the right to direct the activity?

I, like you, am just a guy who marched a long time ago. I buy tickets & recordings, buy some souvenirs, make some donations. And I don't love many of the changes. I don't believe I should have any voice in where the activity goes because I have very little skin in the game. My choice is pretty simple: I can watch if I still enjoy it, or do something else if I don't.

The people who have skin in the game are the current members - paying $4K for their tour - and the corps directors & instructors who make this their career. They are the ones setting the direction, and they should be IMO. If audience size fell, or members stopped auditioning, I'm sure you'd see changes. But both are the best they've been in more than a decade right now.

It's always been this way, The DCI that you marched in 1997 was a totally different thing from the DCI of 1972. Those changes drove plenty away too, but they happened because that's what the people in charge in the 70s and 80s wanted.

 

It's not sustainable.

They cannot continue to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars per years on an arms race to see how much more crazy crap they can do than all the other corps for G.E. points.  It has escalated well beyond the point of ridiculousness.  Corps have forgotten not only where they came from, but who they are now, and they have absolutely no idea where they're going.  Every corps looks and sounds exactly the same now, with no means of identification beyond Brandt Crocker's announcement and the over-produced hype video that plays on the jumbotron.  They have GOT to stop spending so much money on props, costumes, electronics, and consultants.  They can't keep asking more and more from corporate sponsors like they're doing today just to be competitive.  The bubble IS going to burst, unless they scale back and reel themselves in.  It shouldn't take millions upon millions of dollars to field a corps in the 21st century, any more than it should take a staff that is nearly 1/2 the size of the corps to teach them how to play and march.  They're wasting money on things that are driving people away from the activity.  No, those people being driven away aren't here at this very moment to corroborate the previous sentence, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does that mean you shouldn't be concerned for the loss of their support.

The naysayers on here are trying to make it a question of what I do or don't like.  But that's not the question, at all.  It's a question of how much longer can DCI survive like this.  The frivolous and needless expenses are DISPROPORTIONATE to the growth.  No one in their right mind could possibly believe that it's sustainable.  But, as evidenced by the hive-mind on this message board.....there's not a lot of thinking at all going on in the activity today (not an insult, there is ample evidence in this thread alone that proves this is abundantly true).

Sure, I'd love to see corps on the field in uniforms, playing bugles, spinning rifles and staying on their feat for the entire production, marching drill instead of dancing, and treating drum corps with the respect it deserves.  But I know DCI doesn't want to go back there.  All I'm saying is that it would be nice for fans (and, more importantly, performers) to have a wider choice of styles beyond "Whatever last years's champion is doing".  And if that's not going to happen, then I would really like for DCI to acknowledge that the activity is no longer drum corps, and to change its name to something more appropriate to what it actually is.  "Summer Guard International", "Fine Arts International", whatever.  Just call a spade a spade, and quit pretending to be something they stopped being almost two decades ago.  At that point, they can dance and amplify and distort and roll around and wear figure skating outfits all they want to.  The day they stop dishonoring the drum corps activity, one way or the other, I'd be satisfied.

However, more and more it feels like that day will only come when DCI files bankruptcy.  Not even I want that.  But if they continue down the road they're on today.....that's the only logical outcome.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Bobby L. Collins

[BRASSO]

16 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

 BUT does it really matter anyway. Maybe for some it might. 

 I suppose it mattered to Jeff Ream, as he brought up 1981 Montreal Finals Attendance, and numbers of Corps from Quebec/ Ontario that were there and so forth, with an attempt to make the case that DCI inflated the announced numbers that nite. Since i was there that entire week, I could add some personal experience to the issue that he raised that was important enough to him to bring up. So we had a lively discussion on it.. now we can move on from it.

[MikeD]

29 minutes ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Wrong.

You're attempting to counter my arguments with non-arguments.  

Let's define "insult".

"speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse."

Being small-minded is a human condition.  It's not an insult.  And instead of trying to use that as a threat to cajole me into silence, it might make more sense to try to figure out why being called small-minded is such a button-pusher with you guys, and why it causes you to instantly lash out and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's true.

Furthermore, it's not an insult to point out that kids in corps today are wearing color guard outfits.  They ARE color guard outfits.  They're spandex leotards, and they look ridiculous.  That's not an insult.  That's apparent to every single objective member of the drum corps community who doesn't have their head buried in George Hopkins' sandbox.  It's not an insult to point out that they're there to march and play, and not to dance or roll around.  It shouldn't cost $4,000.00 a year to dance and roll around on a football field....in leotards.  These aren't insults.  They're common sense.  You're only labeling them as "insults" because I'm striking a nerve.  A nerve which, deep down, is telling you that I'm right.  And you don't like, not one bit.  I don't care.  I want you to not like that.  I WANT you to come to terms with what you've helped bring into being.  I want you to wake up, open your eyes, look on the field and listen to the mess out there and say "What have I done?".  THAT is the only way forward for drum corps.  Opening our eyes and ears and saying "Ok, we've gone too far.  We need to scale this back, before we destroy ourselves".

I will treat those who treat ME with respect in like kind.  You lot don't do that here.  You lot have NEVER done that.  When someone disagrees with you, you do precisely what oldcadetscorps and stu have been doing for pages and pages.  You talk bollocks and make personal attacks.  You won't do that to me and expect any level of respect from my end.

So stop trying to invent insults just because you aren't comfortable with what I'm saying.  Trust me, I can think of some actual insults that would make your ancestors cry.  But I won't give you the satisfaction.  My business is with drum corps, where it's been, where it is, and where it's going.  Not with hive-mind trolls.

And guys, if you don't want to be labelled by me as a troll......then stop acting like one.  Let's talk about the issues, instead.  Otherwise, get ignored.

Calling people who disagree with you small-minded exactly fits your definition of insult you yourself quoted above. it is disrespectful and scornfui.

You don't like modern uniforms/costumes...fine! Lots of people here do not and agree with you on the basic concept. But others DO like the trend.Why insult them with this scornful statement? Make your point and respond to those who disagree calmly and respectfully. I happen to like the modern trend, and IMO it will continue along that road.

You say it shouldn't cost $4,000 to "to dance and roll around on a football field....in leotards." Why characterize what the modern members do in such a light? It lessens any point you are trying to make about cost. $4K to march an entire summer is a great deal, IMO. Compare that to the cost of a top-level music camp like Interlochen...it is less than half the cost for twice as long a time. 

You are not "striking a nerve" with those who disagree with your insulting attitude in that deep inside they really agree with you. They do not, at least I do not. I am just an audience member at this point, and have been that for almost 30 years. I happen to like the overall direction of DCI, and I hope it continues. Saw my first show in 1963 and my latest in 2017, and I loved it then and now.