ThirdValvesAreForWimps Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 3 hours ago, ChristmasInJuly said: I am pretty sure he is not a troll. I believe he marched Bluecoats and is upset with the fact Cavilers show beat the Bluecoats show. I 100% agree with him. I have never respected Cavilers or Madison Scouts for the simple fact that I think it is crap they do not allow women to march. I do not think they will ever win another championship until they change their mindset on allowing women to march. Women have just as much talent if not more than men. Also their show was 100% a **** you to women this year. I found totally disgraceful and trashy. It is already bad enough you don't allow woman to march but now you are going to have a show about men. I know you guys will bash this and tell me I am stupid but my opinion is my opinion. Both The Cavaliers and the Madison Scouts began as Boy Scout troops. I will not speak for the Scouts whom I deeply respect but as a Cavaliers alumnus I WILL speak for my corps. We, The Cavaliers, are a fraternity -- not just a drum corps. We are all-male and we always will be and our "mindset" is not anti-woman. Our corps exists to develop young men for life, not merely to win championships. It has nothing to do with talent because while women have talent, they are not members of a fraternity or brotherhood. There are many drum corps which welcome women in their ranks and we celebrate this fact. Also, lost in history is an important fact: There were MANY MORE all-girl corps than all-male corps. You didn't see men trying to change this! DCI even had an all-girl championship category back in the day. I'm not into this gender-bender "fluidity" movement which is rampant today. Sure, I respect people's life choices but please respect mine too. The Cavaliers WILL win more DCI championships, sooner rather than later, and no one will be prouder of my brothers than me. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoSurfBass Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, FancySnack said: And I agree with Moto that if they had male guard also in sexy red underwear that it would be less about women's dangerous sexuality and more a show about hedonism(?). Or maybe it would still come across as super prude and suggest that sex is bad and everyone should get married to be good? I don't know. The whole show is at least fun because you can talk about it for hours. It would have been a dirtier Boston 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgy Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, ChristmasInJuly said: 2006 doesn't count for men in the color guard!!! If you're referring to Madison I wasn't talking about that or what I was alluding to. Phantom has had men in the guard before ( 2005-2010 ) but now their policy now is a strictly an all female guard. So the question still stands, since you don't have any respect for Madison or the Cavaliers for their gender "policy", what about Phantom? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, whitedj2002 said: Was Scouts d Why should a judge take into account the audience reaction? Stanford audience differs from Allentown, Denver differs from Atlanta. I am so over Indianapolis and Lucas Oil Stadium that I won't go back for a very long time... why should any of this be factored? The rules should be written and the judging criteria should address this. If you want to acknowledge audience participation then make a new Finals award similar to "Spirit of Disney". Popular opinion isn't easily quantified and I don't want regional interests affecting the outcome. Finally I don't need people in the stands "voting" with more noise. You and I agree more than disagree. I've argued exactly what you're arguing before. What I am saying is that in order for the activity to survive, it needs to keep 1. The marching members happy 2. The paying audience happy Cesario noticed that the first point was being accomplished, but the second one was not. It is one thing for a nightBEAT crowd to be cheering more for Crown than any corps no matter what they put on the field, and it is a very different thing for an audience to be sitting on their hands at every single competition a corps performs in. Because of this, Cesario asked for judges to be allowed (this is the key word here) to take into account (another key phrase) audience reaction. This is not to reward some shows over others, but more as a push for designers to keep the audience in mind during the design process. We saw this immediately with BD as they moved from Rite of Spring to Felliniesque. I don't think judges should be scoring shows higher if they get a better crowd response from a different crowd at a specific venue. That's dumb. Having a diversity of shows -- esoteric to knock-your-socks-off entertaining -- is important, and I don't want corps' styles like that of the Blue Knights to go away for the sake of "more entertainment." BUT there has to be a balance, not everything should head in an esoteric direction, and that's the direction DCI was going before judges were allowed to take into account audience engagement. I think today's DCI has struck an excellent balance and I hope we can stay on track in this direction 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, ThirdValvesAreForWimps said: I'm not into this gender-bender "fluidity" movement which is rampant today. Your point would have been just as, if not even more valid and effective if you had not included this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedj2002 Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Cappybara said: You and I agree more than disagree. I've argued exactly what you're arguing before. What I am saying is that in order for the activity to survive, it needs to keep 1. The marching members happy 2. The paying audience happy Cesario noticed that the first point was being accomplished, but the second one was not. It is one thing for a nightBEAT crowd to be cheering more for Crown than any corps no matter what they put on the field, and it is a very different thing for an audience to be sitting on their hands at every single competition a corps performs in. Because of this, Cesario asked for judges to be allowed (this is the key word here) to take into account (another key phrase) audience reaction. This is not to reward some shows over others, but more as a push for designers to keep the audience in mind during the design process. We saw this immediately with BD as they moved from Rite of Spring to Felliniesque. I don't think judges should be scoring shows higher if they get a better crowd response from a different crowd at a specific venue. That's dumb. Having a diversity of shows -- esoteric to knock-your-socks-off entertaining -- is important, and I don't want corps' styles like that of the Blue Knights to go away for the sake of "more entertainment." BUT there has to be a balance, not everything should head in an esoteric direction, and that's the direction DCI was going before judges were allowed to take into account audience engagement. I think today's DCI has struck an excellent balance and I hope we can stay on track in this direction Appreciate your insight! I agree with your assessment of DCI overall direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdValvesAreForWimps Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Cappybara said: Your point would have been just as, if not even more valid and effective if you had not included this. Maybe. But I'm from Mars.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Pete Freedman said: Several points are being debated here. The show is not misogynistic, and as you say they make fun of maleness. However, they should let the girls play too. While people can join any corps in theory, it is in general a regional activity in that most people seem to come from somewhere in drive-able range to their corps. And unsurprisingly they drum up (ha!) support for the activity in their area. Membership demand, in other words, is likely to be higher in areas where top corps exist. In the midwest there are three top corps, but only one allows girls to play. That means only perhaps 75 out of 450 top corps members (or less) can be girls in a region that promotes drum corps intensely. So the fact that both of the all-male corps are in the same region is a problem, in my opinion. But yes, for the girls with the airfare to all those spring camps in California or wherever, it's not a problem. And the show was a fine show. The Cavaliers take risks of this type in their shows (like last year) which I appreciate. The regional argument does not hold up. At some point, someone will post a list of which states kids who march hail from, and it will show most kids who march do not hail from states that host corps, California and Texas bring the exception. At one time, Boston Crusaders has been jokingly called the Florida Crusaders because so many kids who marched lived in Florida. Some corps hold auditions in Southern states to make the process easier and affordable. My guess, of the 23 WC corps, Pioneer, Surf, Cascades, possibly Genesis, Spirit, Pacific Crest, Oregon Crusaders and Mandarins might be regional, and judging by this year's results, Mandarins and Spirit will be less regional next year. My understanding is Academy had more interest from around the country after 2016, Colts used to have quite a few kids from all over the country and I have no reason to believe that has changed. Troopers hail from everywhere. SCV and BD may have quite a few California residents in the corps, but California is a huge state area wise, do the marchers hail from the Santa Clara and Concord? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoSurfBass Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Pete Freedman said: In the midwest there are three top corps, but only one allows girls to play. That means only perhaps 75 out of 450 top corps members (or less) can be girls in a region that promotes drum corps intensely. So the fact that both of the all-male corps are in the same region is a problem, in my opinion. Just curious... I'm assuming you don't' consider the Bluecoats to be Midwest, but are you ignoring the Blue Stars or Phantom Regiment? Of the 12 Finalist Corps this year, 2 were from the West Coast, 1 Southwest, 2 Northeast, 1 Southeast, 1 from the Rockies, and 5, FIVE from the Midwest. Take away the two that don't have female members, and the Midwest still has the largest number of corps representing in Finals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdValvesAreForWimps Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, MotoSurfBass said: Just curious... I'm assuming you don't' consider the Bluecoats to be Midwest, but are you ignoring the Blue Stars or Phantom Regiment? Of the 12 Finalist Corps this year, 2 were from the West Coast, 1 Southwest, 2 Northeast, 1 Southeast, 1 from the Rockies, and 5, FIVE from the Midwest. Take away the two that don't have female members, and the Midwest still has the largest number of corps representing in Finals. The Midwest used to dominate DCI Finals: Taking The Cavaliers, Madison Scouts, and the pre-1978 Kilts out of the equation, Midwestern finalists included Phantom Regiment, Blue Stars, Guardsmen, Glassmen, Bluecoats, Star of Indiana, Colts, and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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