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Madison Scouts 2018


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On 6/6/2018 at 3:30 PM, Jeff Ream said:

the unique value of the corps has been slowly eroded by a decade of wandering in the wilderness of knowing who they are.Even in the slimmer years Cavies had recently, you knew they were the Cavies. Outside of a few years with Mason in charge ( I'll say 10-13)....who is Madison anymore? Trying to be The Men of Madison but yet not reverting to Malaguena the 100th time has left them in a design and identity quandry. 

 

is going co-ed the answer? I don't know. it could do more harm then good. But competitive success hasn't been an issue for the Cavaliers being all male. They'll do what they do, but it has the potential to back fire too

I agree with your points.

Coed Phantom Regiment not even a hundred miles from Madison to Rockford is also adjusting to find what is the Regiment charisma in contemporary DCI. Coed Blue Stars in LaCrosse/Indy have found a niche but they seem stuck, some years trying to prove they deserve to be in finals;  coed Colts in nearby Dubuque, Iowa (92 miles) also seek to be in finals but haven't always been successfully confident on how. And Wisconsin's third corps, Pioneer, also coed, struggles to make semi-finals. Only the all-male Rosemont, Illinois Cavaliers have been rather consistent in their purpose and competitive success. To make Madison a coed corps doesn't guarantee a female membership that is better than the near corps already fitting that niche for several decades.  What would make the Scouts unique beyond being all-male? Madison needs to find that answer first. One runs to something, not away from something.

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On 6/6/2018 at 5:28 AM, BigBadMadMan said:

I’m going to have to go back and look for specific examples of this, but I said that this year was a trial balloon for taking the corps coed and I was laughed at and told I was flat-out wrong. Turns out I was right, as that is an issue the admin is mulling right now. That will be a mistake, because it strips the corps of any unique value it has left. I’m sure @tesmusic is all for it and has his pom-pons in hand so he can play cheerleader, but this is why I don’t trust the leadership of the corps and think they need to be removed. I’ve just seen the product on the field and been distrustful of the direction. Just a gut thing. Nice to finally have my fears justified.

I think it will be a huge mistake for them to NOT go coed. You are eliminating 1/2 of the talent pool. At one time or another, many corps out there were all male, but have gone coed. We don't even remember those times they were all male, anymore. I think it would benefit them to open up the talent pool. 

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11 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I think it will be a huge mistake for them to NOT go coed. You are eliminating 1/2 of the talent pool. At one time or another, many corps out there were all male, but have gone coed. We don't even remember those times they were all male, anymore. I think it would benefit them to open up the talent pool. 

There is no lack of talent, seeing as there are only 2 all-male corps in existence today.

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8 hours ago, BigBadMadMan said:

There is no lack of talent, seeing as there are only 2 all-male corps in existence today.

  1. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at any point in the season was 1991.
  2. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at any point in the season was 1995.
  3. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at finals was 2000. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at any point in the season was 2005.
  4. The last time Madison beat Phantom at finals was 1999. The last time Madison beat Phantom at any point in the season was 2005.
  5. The last time Madison beat Santa Clara at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Santa Clara.
  6. The last time Madison beat Crown at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Crown.

Even with those statistics, it was a rare event, after 1988, for Madison to beat Phantom during successive seasons, and even a rarer event for them to beat Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers (until 2012, and since 2015), Santa Clara, and Star (until they left). From finals 1997 until 2012, Madison hadn't beaten Cavies once.

Obviously a huge huge huge problem. So, yes, there is a lack of talent going to Madison. Why cripple that further by remaining all male. It is a competitive activity, and things are different today than they were in 1995 or 1996. Corps don't get most of their membership locally, and the membership of the top corps is made up much more of serious musicians and dancers who want to learn from the best and be the best. Madison helps feed the top corps with membership now. That saddens me.

Can you honestly say if Madison had placed 13th in 1993 and 12th in 1994 that you would have wanted to march there? No judgement here - I wanted to march in one corps, but they weren't perennial top 3, so I marched else where because I wanted to march with the best and win. Still, Madison was always on my radar, along with the other top corps, because I never once thought we were guaranteed to beat Madison, at least at our first meeting. Now, those top corps don't give Madison a passing thought. That is sad.

I have always loved Madison - they are such a class act, and the guys that marched there when I marched were so cool and fun. I just want to see them kick some butt again.

Edited by queenanne_1536
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1 hour ago, queenanne_1536 said:
  1. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at any point in the season was 1991.
  2. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at any point in the season was 1995.
  3. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at finals was 2000. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at any point in the season was 2005.
  4. The last time Madison beat Phantom at finals was 1999. The last time Madison beat Phantom at any point in the season was 2005.
  5. The last time Madison beat Santa Clara at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Santa Clara.
  6. The last time Madison beat Crown at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Crown.

Even with those statistics, it was a rare event, after 1988, for Madison to beat Phantom during successive seasons, and even a rarer event for them to beat Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers (until 2012, and since 2015), Santa Clara, and Star (until they left). From finals 1997 until 2012, Madison hadn't beaten Cavies once.

Obviously a huge huge huge problem. So, yes, there is a lack of talent going to Madison. Why cripple that further by remaining all male. It is a competitive activity, and things are different today than they were in 1995 or 1996. Corps don't get most of their membership locally, and the membership of the top corps is made up much more of serious musicians and dancers who want to learn from the best and be the best. Madison helps feed the top corps with membership now. That saddens me.

Can you honestly say if Madison had placed 13th in 1993 and 12th in 1994 that you would have wanted to march there? No judgement here - I wanted to march in one corps, but they weren't perennial top 3, so I marched else where because I wanted to march with the best and win. Still, Madison was always on my radar, along with the other top corps, because I never once thought we were guaranteed to beat Madison, at least at our first meeting. Now, those top corps don't give Madison a passing thought. That is sad.

I have always loved Madison - they are such a class act, and the guys that marched there when I marched were so cool and fun. I just want to see them kick some butt again.

you are assuming the problems have to do with NOT having females, What makes you think females would be the answer. There's plenty of male talent out there . One has to look at what other issues there may or may not have been, in all areas of the organization. 

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4 hours ago, GUARDLING said:

you are assuming the problems have to do with NOT having females, What makes you think females would be the answer. There's plenty of male talent out there . One has to look at what other issues there may or may not have been, in all areas of the organization. 

I get where you are coming from. I am not saying females are the answer. I'm saying excluding them from your ranks excludes 1/2 of the talent pool. Example, if 100 people show up to audition for the guard and the best 30 (using an easy number here) are made up of 15 males and 15 females, but you exclude the females, you are already weakening yourself and those 15 females are either headed northwest to Lacrosse or south to Rockford, or some where else. Out of those 100, you are choosing members from the best to the very least successful.

Also, in my opinion Cavaliers are the biggest draw in the midwest, so that is why lack of females doesn't impact them nearly as much. In fact, in the midwest, Madison probably ranks 4th in terms of draw behind Cavies, Phantom and Blue Stars. Limiting yourself further but excluding 1/2 of the talent pool doesn't help.  

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31 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said:

I get where you are coming from. I am not saying females are the answer. I'm saying excluding them from your ranks excludes 1/2 of the talent pool. Example, if 100 people show up to audition for the guard and the best 30 (using an easy number here) are made up of 15 males and 15 females, but you exclude the females, you are already weakening yourself and those 15 females are either headed northwest to Lacrosse or south to Rockford, or some where else. Out of those 100, you are choosing members from the best to the very least successful.

Also, in my opinion Cavaliers are the biggest draw in the midwest, so that is why lack of females doesn't impact them nearly as much. In fact, in the midwest, Madison probably ranks 4th in terms of draw behind Cavies, Phantom and Blue Stars. Limiting yourself further but excluding 1/2 of the talent pool doesn't help.  

6
6

I get ya but you are looking I think at what may not be the issue with getting more talent. 

Your example of the 30 members,  you are creating a situation to match up with your assumption of incoming talent. What I mean, is one can also say out of 100 showing for auditions and taking only 30 are you possibly turning away extremely talented males because you want or have to take your quota of females?

Bottom line imo, I think if it were as simple as opening the guard and corps to females like many corps have done over the years was the answer, Madison would have already done that, especially if it meant saving the corps. IMO ( just my opinion ) Scouts have to look deeper because with any corps, lack of membership or at least struggling to get the best goes a lot further in most cases than the obvious to outsiders. There can be a dozen other reasons for this situation.  

I have always said, as much as I hate corps hoppers of the past, lack of loyalty compared to bitd staff sometimes always looking for the next best thing ( that can come back at sometimes to bite you in the azz too ) Corps have to stop blaming  others for offering something obviously you may not be. Look to oneself 1st I guess is what I am saying.

I know you are quite right about Cavaliers, so what are they offering that maybe Madison isn't. That's what has to be examined. I have had some concerns with decisions they have made in the past and still with the new staff have a few but bottom line Madison needs to do whats best for Madison. Personally, I have loved a lot of the changes they have made in recent years BUT have also loved the iconic Scouts. Either way, I wish them all the best. DCI needs an iconic corps like Madison to stay around. jmo

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6 hours ago, queenanne_1536 said:
  1. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat Blue Devils at any point in the season was 1991.
  2. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at finals was 1988. The last time Madison beat the Cadets at any point in the season was 1995.
  3. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at finals was 2000. The last time Madison beat Bluecoats at any point in the season was 2005.
  4. The last time Madison beat Phantom at finals was 1999. The last time Madison beat Phantom at any point in the season was 2005.
  5. The last time Madison beat Santa Clara at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Santa Clara.
  6. The last time Madison beat Crown at finals was 2005. 2005 finals was the last time Madison beat Crown.

Even with those statistics, it was a rare event, after 1988, for Madison to beat Phantom during successive seasons, and even a rarer event for them to beat Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers (until 2012, and since 2015), Santa Clara, and Star (until they left). From finals 1997 until 2012, Madison hadn't beaten Cavies once.

Obviously a huge huge huge problem. So, yes, there is a lack of talent going to Madison. Why cripple that further by remaining all male. It is a competitive activity, and things are different today than they were in 1995 or 1996. Corps don't get most of their membership locally, and the membership of the top corps is made up much more of serious musicians and dancers who want to learn from the best and be the best. Madison helps feed the top corps with membership now. That saddens me.

Can you honestly say if Madison had placed 13th in 1993 and 12th in 1994 that you would have wanted to march there? No judgement here - I wanted to march in one corps, but they weren't perennial top 3, so I marched else where because I wanted to march with the best and win. Still, Madison was always on my radar, along with the other top corps, because I never once thought we were guaranteed to beat Madison, at least at our first meeting. Now, those top corps don't give Madison a passing thought. That is sad.

I have always loved Madison - they are such a class act, and the guys that marched there when I marched were so cool and fun. I just want to see them kick some butt again.

placement is more than talent

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11 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

placement is more than talent

Is it though?

 

Talented members are required for excellent execution which secures higher placement since better execution guarantees higher rewards from judges since they have less to critique.

Talented staff is required to design excellent art for membership to execute at a level they can do so well so that a higher placement can be secured.

Talented administration is also required to maintain and manage talented membership and staff (think about how many professional sports teams waste talent by having a terrible front office).

 

I think talent is certainly a big part of it, and I agree with queenanne_1536 that limiting yourself to only a set pool of possible talent when other factors are already mitigating the availability of that pool of talent is not helpful.

 

I marched Madison not because it was all-male.  I had already marched co-ed organizations.  I marched Madison because I had always wanted to do so since I always enjoyed the shows they performed and the reaction they received from the crowd as a child before I was old enough to march.  This is the case for most of the members I know.  I do not really recall anyone wanting to march Madison solely because it was all-male (I could obviously be missing folks who did though).

 

I left Madison because the administration is an absolute #### show and has no idea how to properly manage or maintain talented members and talented staff.  Why would I (let alone anyone) want to age-out there when they disregarded appropriate input from staff (both design and teaching) and when they claimed to be all about self-governance by/for the membership but did nothing but circumvent what the membership (especially veteran members/leadership) were advocating for?

 

In 2009, the talent that was in Madison was nothing compared to the talent in 2008.  It was really hard for a lot of members to admit that in the pre-season and all-days.  It was glaringly obvious to some of us, and it was also glaringly obvious that the financial problems contributed to the issue since the administration forced caption heads to contract people who were not talented so that the corps could have money during the winter/spring when we could have waited for more talented cuts from higher placing corps.  This was something the administration refused to acknowledge even though pretty much all the staff made the issue absolutely clear to veteran members/leadership across the course of the season.  It also does not help that, like some other posters have mentioned both here and in other threads, this administration does not do a good job paying and securing/retaining talented staff.  I love James Sparling, and the percussion staff in general the last few years has been decent, but there is always awkward turnover that you do not see in other corps (and not just in percussion).  Further, in 2009, one of the ways the administration tried to cut costs was by absolutely decimating the food program.  How can you expect talented or not-so-talented members to perform well or maintain any consistent level of performance when they are not being fed adequately or appropriately?  It was not uncommon to run out of food at meals in 2009, and that really ###### me off since the corps had had an excellent food program since 2004.

 

The biggest reason I left Madison was because the administration inadvertently screwed up the design, teaching, and placement of the corps in 2009 and did not seem to care at all.  They seemed to see it as a success because they were able to recruit Mason into basically "buying" the corps.  What a waste.  If the administration had not tried to duck and cover the whole season and the leadership/veteran members were able to have an open and honest dialogue from the beginning everyone would have recognized that 2009 was not 2008, and was certainly more like 2007, and could have worked together to introduce and educate the newest members into the brotherhood in a way that talked about standing on the shoulders of those who come before you and being the shoulders of those who come after so we could have salvaged the season in a way that did not focus on trying to make finals when that was clearly, in my opinion, never a possibility from the get go.  I believe that all of this goes to show that it is quite certainly about talent.  In 2008-2009 I was in my first ever season in WGI competition with Rhythm X and we ended up winning and setting a WGI high score (at the time).  I did not know I was that talented, and still do not believe that I am.  However, that experience, of seeing what a different kind of organization does and how they do it (not that X is perfect, X is, and especially was at that time, far from perfect), made the obvious deficiencies of Madison 2009 quite painful and jarring for me and other members who thought like me.  Especially when it seemed like the vast majority of vets bought Dann Petersen's asinine mantra hook, line, and sinker.  Homie was passed out incoherent on finals day when we were supposed to chat about 2010 and whether or not I would return.  I had already known I was not returning, but that definitely was a send off that reinforced things for me.

Edited by ndkbass
typos/spelling
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4 minutes ago, ndkbass said:

Is it though?

 

Talented members are required for excellent execution which secures higher placement since better execution guarantees higher rewards from judges since they have less to critique.

Talented staff is required to design excellent art for membership to execute at a level they can do so well so that a higher placement can be secured.

Talented administration is also required to maintain and manage talented membership and staff (think about how many professional sports teams waste talent by having a terrible front office).

 

I think talent is certainly a big part of it, and I agree with queenanne_1536 that limiting yourself to only a set pool of possible talent when other factors are already mitigating the availability of that pool of talent is not helpful.

 

I marched Madison not because it was all-male.  I had already marched co-ed organizations.  I marched Madison because I had always wanted to do so since I always enjoyed the shows they performed and the reaction they received from the crowd as a child before I was old enough to march.  This is the case for most of the members I know.  I do not really recall anyone wanting to march Madison solely because it was all-male (I could obviously be missing folks who did though).

 

I left Madison because the administration is an absolute #### show and has no idea how to properly manage or maintain talented members and talented staff.  Why would I (let alone anyone) want to age-out there when they disregarded appropriate input from staff (both design and teaching) and when they claimed to be all about self-governance by/for the membership but did nothing but circumvent what the membership (especially veteran members/leadership) were advocating for?

 

In 2009, the talent that was in Madison was nothing compared to the talent in 2008.  It was really hard for a lot of members to admit that in the pre-season and all-days.  It was glaringly obvious to some of us, and it was also glaringly obvious that the financial problems contributed to the issue since the administration forced caption heads to contract people who were not talented so that the corps could have money during the winter/spring when we could have waited for more talented cuts from higher placing corps.  This was something the administration refused to acknowledge even though pretty much all the staff made the issue absolutely clear to veteran members/leadership across the course of the season.  It also does not help that, like some other posters have mentioned both here and in other threads, this administration does not do a good job paying and securing/retaining talented staff.  I love James Sparling, and the percussion staff in general the last few years has been decent, but there is always awkward turnover that you do not see in other corps (and not just in percussion).  Further, in 2009, one of the ways the administration tried to cut costs was by absolutely decimating the food program.  How can you expect talented or not-so-talented members to perform well or maintain any consistent level of performance when they are not being fed adequately or appropriately?  It was not uncommon to run out of food at meals in 2009, and that really ###### me off since the corps had had an excellent food program since 2004.

 

The biggest reason I left Madison was because the administration inadvertently screwed up the design, teaching, and placement of the corps in 2009 and did not seem to care at all.  They seemed to see it as a success because they were able to recruit Mason into basically "buying" the corps.  What a waste.  If the administration had not tried to duck and cover the whole season and the leadership/veteran members were able to have an open and honest dialogue from the beginning everyone would have recognized that 2009 was not 2008, and was certainly more like 2007, and could have worked together to introduce and educate the newest members into the brotherhood in a way that talked about standing on the shoulders of those who come before you and being the shoulders of those who come after so we could have salvaged the season in a way that did not focus on trying to make finals when that was clearly, in my opinion, never a possibility from the get go.  I believe that all of this goes to show that is quite certainly about talent.  In 2008-2009 I was in my first even season in WGI competition with Rhythm X and we ended up winning and setting a WGI high score (at the time).  I did not know I was that talented, and still do not believe that I am.  However, that experience, of seeing what a different kind of organization does and how they do it (not that X is perfect, X is, and especially was at that time, far from perfect), made the obvious deficiencies of Madison 2009 quite painful and jarring for me and other members who thought like me.  Especially when it seemed like the vast majority of vets bought Dann Peterson's asinine mantra hook, line, and sinker.  Homie was passed out incoherent on finals day when we were supposed to chat about 2010 and wether or not I would return.  I had already known I was not returning, but that definitely was a send off that reinforced things for me.

you can have the most talented group in the world...and bad design will keep it low every time. I think the Ellis show year had incredible talent....saddled with horrible design. I also think the talent for Judas was better than the material given. And the problem is Madison too often tries to dip back into the way machine for ideas to redo to be "Madison" and appease the alumni, while sacrificing good ideas that could get the corps further ahead in the standings.

 

You need more than talent in the administration. You need smarts. I know some great leaders who have talent, and their organizations do ok, but they never take those next steps because they're not smart. 

 

the Cavies are the example. They have continued to be the Cavaliers without feeling beholden to how it was done before. Even their bad years recently beat Madison for the most part. Sure they throw some cool little nods to Cavies past in there most years...but just touches. Not trying to reinvent 75, 88, 99, etc. And the admin does their job. The competition is deeper now than ever. This isn't 1980-1999 where your top 6 pretty much every year is BD, Cadets, Cavies, Madison Phantom and Vanguard. Crown and Bluecoats jumped up. Now Boston. Phantom kinda hanging on the edge, with Blue Knights and Blue Stars and Crossmen all in the neighborhood. Those last corps all made huge jumps, and Cavies jumped back up> Madison has stayed stagnant. They haven't offered up anything to make the crowd scream like it's 1995 again. outside of their uniform choice last year, I can't remember one thing about the show besides it looked like Music City Mystique on a football field.

 

I can tell you oodles about many Madison shows up til 13 going back to the 70's. But nothing since 14 other than Judas, and i don't have good memories of Judas

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