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Enough Judging Conspiracy Theories


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36 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

I think that wild shifts especially on the night that it counts most is a problem. I understand what you are trying to say, I just think its crappy.

So it leads me to my next question. How can the sheets account for such radically different styles among the corps. How do they really assess who is "better?" The perfect example is the brass caption. Both BD and Crown are exceptional horn lines, but they use very different balance structures, different tonality and different attack methods that are designed to compliment the musical style they are playing. I prefer the sound of Crown, I know others who swear up and down that BD is better and they have a great argument. The whole thing is like comparing an apple an orange a banana and a kumquat and saying which one is better. Sure they are all fruits, but how do you compare them to fairly judge which is better? 

Here is an example: say you are judging Harry Conick Jr. Big Band, Chicago Symphony, and Dave Matthews Band. What you do 'not' do is compare them to each other, but to the criteria on the sheets which does accommodate that situation. How well does Conick Jr. do Jazz, how well does Chicago do symphonic, how well does Matthews do rock, compared to the sheets. Then the scores and rankings will fall into place. And if there is a time, well did Connick Jr. do their jazz better than Chicago do their symphonic? That is how you judge the different generas to the same sheets.

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2 minutes ago, Stu said:

Here is an example: say you are judging Harry Conick Jr. Big Band, Chicago Symphony, and Dave Matthews Band. What you do 'not' do is compare them to each other, but to the criteria on the sheets which does accommodate that situation. How well does Conick Jr. do Jazz, how well does Chicago do symphonic, how well does Matthews do rock, compared to the sheets. Then the scores and rankings will fall into place. And if there is a time, well did Connick Jr. do their jazz better than Chicago do their symphonic? That is how you judge the different generas to the same sheets.

But since I am the biggest DMB fan in the world, I am always going to value what they do more than Chicago Symphony and Harry Connick Jr. See the problem there?

Edited by ContraFart
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2 hours ago, garfield said:

Now wait a second.  I'm not as convinced as you that Stu is off-point.  The OP DID make the statement Stu is harping on and I, too, would like some specific examples to legitimize the OP's position.

Without substantiation of actual situations, or even allusions to them, the OP's opening missive is nothing but opinion.

 

But it IS opinion.  As stated in my original post:

13 hours ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Yes, this is a traditional activity and that I quite understand.  

Furthermore, most design and tech staff who have been a part of the top competing units are of a separate generation with separate visions working alongside older generations with progressive acuities.  There's a lot of subjectivity with the sheets and what is put on the field or floor.  A few older judges see this.  Most, however, don't.  This is, in my honest opinion, the main disconnect between the overall numbers and what the fans want to see rewarded.  

Thank you.

 

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2 hours ago, garfield said:

But you did.  And now you have a choice of three actions:  Substantiate your opinion if you choose, change the original contention that Stu is picking on, or go away quietly and leave those remaining to discuss the validity of your points.

That's how it works but, because you've been lurking for a long time, you know that.

It is a little confusing that you came on to defend that there are no conspiracies but then make comments that clearly suggest some of the current crop of judges would do well to quit and move on.

 

Thank you for your response.  Also, thank you providing lots of interesting discourse over the years.  Great reading material.

If you--and others reading this--have had the patience/curiosity to go over the recaps from show-to-show, from year-to-year, unit-to-unit, and caption-to-caption, and do some true analysis, you'll see what I mean.  Do you take notes on the names below the caption header?  Do you know who they are?  Their history?  Their trends?  Why XYZ flux in numbers?  Did you actually watch XYZ show(s)?

Regardless, I kindly and politely refuse to comply to your 3 ultimatums.  I said I'm here to answer questions.  Not to defend a dissertation.  I stand by my original post and those thereafter.

Thank you.

 

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2 hours ago, Cappybara said:

Dude, please give it a rest... you are not going to get anything out of him, this is bordering on harassment now. 

I agree that he SHOULD cite examples to substantiate and legitimize his claims, but if he doesnt after the first, say, 10 times you pester him, I think it's just safe to conclude that his point in that particular respect does not have much merit. Easy as that. 

It's just a reflection and just an opinion from years of judging with many skilled people on various levels.  I am absolutely not going to provide examples because that would be rude and unprofessional.  I work with these people.  Write me off as having no merit--it does not matter.

If you want, you can throw some numbers into your favorite spreadsheet software and see what I mean.  Or argue with me (or others).  That's cool too. 

My main point is that readers of this forum and fans of the activity who aren't judges, regardless of their age, should consider judging.  We need more passionate analytical people involved.

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54 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

But since I am the biggest DMB fan in the world, I am always going to value what they do more than Chicago Symphony and Harry Connick Jr. See the problem there?

For a trained person who is judging, say, a music caption, the type of music they personally like is not a factor. 

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1 hour ago, ContraFart said:

Changing one spot by half a point when they won the majority of head to head match ups including the prior 2 nights is a wild shift in my book.

And if there is no answer to "who is better?" Then why in the hell do we have scoring in the first place?

If you are referring to the CG caption between BD and SCV, which i think you are (please correct me if wrong) BD was 10-4 head to head against SCV in guard all season. I did not count Allentown since they performed on different nights, but if we count that one, BD beat SCV 18.80-18.65.

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1 hour ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

 

My main point is that readers of this forum and fans of the activity who aren't judges, regardless of their age, should consider judging.  

 However, you quite clearly stated above that there are current judges that need to retire because of their " age ", as ( your words ) " most of them don't see the progressive acuities ". I thought they were ( BD, for example ), but you apparently don't.

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4 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 However, you quite clearly stated above that there are current judges that need to retire because of their " age ".

Nope.  Because they have been judging for a long time.  And I said many.  Not all.  Not most.  Many.

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9 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Nope.  Because they have been judging for a long time.  And I said many.  Not all.  Not most.  Many.

 No. To be more precise you stated " most older DCI judges above " above , not " many ".

 Also, what about more females in the ranks of DCI ?  DCI had no females judging Finals. DCI has few Corps Directors, few Show Designers, few on Corps BOD's, few in executive positions of DCI,  none in the broadcast booth. The guys are all interviewing other guy Show designers up in the booth every year, every broadcast. Does DCI recognize the progressive things that have happened over the last 35 years in the cultural, social, work day world ... at ALL?  So what exactly " progressiveism do you have in mind ? Where are the judges that are female ?... The DCI judging ranks an " Old Boy " network, is it not ?

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