Cappybara Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, ContraFart said: I'm am not saying I want compulsories, I am saying the lack of them puts more weight on pure subjective opinion. I am just trying to point out the inadequacies in the system, I'm not proposing any fixes. That is just stating the obvious. Everyone already knows it's a subjective activity. It's art, that's self explanatory. So the inadequacies are a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, Stu said: I only referenced your posts, added nothing to your quotes, never made any personal remarks, posed direct questions based on your own claims within context of other things you post, asked you to support why your evaluations are better than the judges, asked you a math question because you divulged your career choice, placed your math answer in context with adjudicating ... and all of that is me being condescending and smug? Okey Dokey then. No you use statements out of context. You take statements meant to make a different rhetorical point and use them to dance around and even ignore the premise at hand and you do it with smug superiority. You have no interest in having a productive conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenanne_1536 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 6 hours ago, MikeRapp said: The most important aspect of the results is NOT whether a corps improved or regressed. But rather, whether the corps is "better" or "worse" than the corps ahead of it. That is the problem because current scoring does not reflect that. One judge might see one corps as better, but still scores them lower because of herd-judging mentality. I see that with BD's GE and Visual scores at finals, where for the first time they were placed first in every single subcaption. Which is bollocks in my opinion, even though I think the overall result was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, queenanne_1536 said: That is the problem because current scoring does not reflect that. One judge might see one corps as better, but still scores them lower because of herd-judging mentality. I see that with BD's GE and Visual scores at finals, where for the first time they were placed first in every single subcaption. Which is bollocks in my opinion, even though I think the overall result was right. There will be flaws in any subjective scoring system. I think everyone understands this. While there are aspects of how dci does things that I don't like, and more that I believe are pretty useless due to their self fulfilling nature, it's currently quite difficult to legitimately question what are the final outcomes at the top. It's all going to come down to what you personally value over something else. In the end, the worrisome aspect of the current system, imo, is that it is practically impossible to climb into medal contention for corps that have rarely if ever been there. Again, it's the nature of the system, plus the fact that older kids want to march with kids their own age and experience. They also want to win a medal before they age out. Which, again, only further solidifies the "herd mentality" of the current scoring system. I want to say thank you to Jeff Ream' DeusGreen and others here who are or have been active judges. I appreciate your time and perspectives on the matter. Edited August 23, 2017 by MikeRapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: here they showed the GE sheet when the new system launched: http://www.dci.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=33500&ATCLID=209936977&SPID=166025&SPSID=965782 oh here's all of them http://www.dci.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=33500&ATCLID=209937964&SPID=166025&SPSID=965782 Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenanne_1536 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: There will be flaws in any subjective scoring system. I think everyone understands this. While there are aspects of how dci does things that I don't like, and more that I believe are pretty useless due to their self fulfilling nature, it's currently quite difficult to legitimately question what are the final outcomes at the top. It's all going to come down to what you personally value over something else. In the end, the worrisome aspect of the current system, imo, is that it is practically impossible to climb into medal contention for corps that have rarely if ever been there. Again, it's the nature of the system, plus the fact that older kids want to march with kids their own age and experience. They also want to win a medal before they age out. Which, again, only further solidifies the "herd mentality" of the current scoring system. I want to say thank you to Jeff Ream' DeusGreen and others here who are or have been active judges. I appreciate your time and perspectives on the matter. Yes, but that system is heavily flawed, and there's really no logical defense of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraFart Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: There will be flaws in any subjective scoring system. I think everyone understands this. While there are aspects of how dci does things that I don't like, and more that I believe are pretty useless due to their self fulfilling nature, it's currently quite difficult to legitimately question what are the final outcomes at the top. It's all going to come down to what you personally value over something else. In the end, the worrisome aspect of the current system, imo, is that it is practically impossible to climb into medal contention for corps that have rarely if ever been there. Again, it's the nature of the system, plus the fact that older kids want to march with kids their own age and experience. They also want to win a medal before they age out. Which, again, only further solidifies the "herd mentality" of the current scoring system. I want to say thank you to Jeff Ream' DeusGreen and others here who are or have been active judges. I appreciate your time and perspectives on the matter. I think judges get it in the ball park, but when 1-3 are separated by less than a point, arent there legitimate questions about the limits of the system? As for the worrisome part. I totally agree, but I think that is an overall structural problem. There is no way to legislate parody and keep the overall growth of the activity going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 44 minutes ago, ContraFart said: I think judges get it in the ball park, but when 1-3 are separated by less than a point, arent there legitimate questions about the limits of the system? As for the worrisome part. I totally agree, but I think that is an overall structural problem. There is no way to legislate parody and keep the overall growth of the activity going. I tend to be against legislating for outcomes in general. I don't know how you would or could change the situation we have now, other than to find ways to expand the number of legit world class corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeusExGreenMachina Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MikeRapp said: In the end, the worrisome aspect of the current system, imo, is that it is practically impossible to climb into medal contention for corps that have rarely if ever been there. Again, it's the nature of the system, plus the fact that older kids want to march with kids their own age and experience. They also want to win a medal before they age out. Which, again, only further solidifies the "herd mentality" of the current scoring system. I honestly don't think it's herd mentality as it is other dynamics with the competing corps not involving the judging. It is plausible to assume you are correct, but I simply don't see it due to my experiences with judging what I see at any particular show. I was ready to disagree with you about corps that have earned DCI medals but you have a point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only 14 units that have ever earned a medal in DCI championships; to my understanding, they are as follows: BD Blue Stars Bluecoats Cadets Cavaliers Crown Madison Phantom Troopers Vanguard 27th Lancers Anaheim Kingsmen Bridgemen Star of Indiana In which the latter four are currently inactive with DCI*. Now I'm tempted to throw every recap from 1972 to 2017 into a spreadsheet and see which judges gave top 3 to each competing unit for their respective caption and analyze their history with the judging community. I wonder if it could tell an interesting story. Perhaps for a later post after this madness I started dies down. *Note: I believe Anaheim Kingsmen and Bridgemen still have some ongoing non-DCI activities, so please correct me if I am wrong. Edited August 24, 2017 by DeusExGreenMachina Grammar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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