Missing!

[Kamarag]

2 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

I had to laugh.  "Give examples of DCA emulating DCI, but not amplification, electronics, trombones, or any other recent rule changes."  That, along with the unifying theme as required element, is precisely how DCA has been emulating DCI.  They are a bit behind with the body vocabulary, props and tarps, but those are coming too.

From this, it sounds like you find it advantageous for DCA to align with DCI.  How would you feel about adopting DCI rules and sheets?  

 

The rules are already quite similar, save the performer cap. DCI and DCA have had a back and forth synergy with rules and scoring systems going back decades. DCA's current sheets, in my opinion, are actually a little bit better than DCI's. DCA, for example, places the brass judge in the box (which DCI will eventually do, or at least add one there), and they['ve eliminated field judges completely in the  interest of safety. The major difference between the judging systems is that DCA places more emphasis on general effect and how general effect numbers are derived. The performance and ensemble captions are essentially nearly identical in most respects, which makes total sense.

DCA and DCI are already aligned, and are loose partners in the overall activity. I absolutely do believe the two organizations can grow closer, and should. I'm absolutely no expert in how drum corps are administered, but partnerships on the micro and macro levels are really no-brainer decisions.

It's interesting that you cite "unifying theme" as a "required" element. It isn't. I just reread the DCA sheets and cannot find that anywhere. Corps tend to choose unifying themes because it's just good design...not drum corps design, but production design in general. Corps don't program "variety show" style shows anymore because it's not effective design anymore, especially given the time constraint of the 17 minute performance window.

You also have to consider the evolution of DCA over time. Not from a rules standpoint per se, but in terms of the membership. Members today aren't interested in the same things members were decades ago. They are more intelligent, sophisticated, and have a deeper understanding (in a general sense) of the modern activity. It's only natural that they want to perform shows that have more depth in their programming. Yet they still want to be entertaining, and they are. 

Folks that pine for the days of the Empire Statesmen and that style of programming may not like today's shows, and that's ok. But to intimate that DCA needs more shows like that? Ugh. I found DCI in 2017 to be the most entertaining year in decades, and maybe ever (and I marched my DCI years in the 80's). I think DCA this years was far and away the most entertaining that I have seen (been watching or performing/teaching since 2003).

I was there for the paradigm shift in design (2005 Bucs). I think it's one of the best things to happen to DCA in it's history. But to say DCA isn't wildly entertaining today is again, patently absurd. There's room for a Statesmen or a Statesmen-like corps. Then again, you have to ask yourself why they aren't around anymore (a topic for another day).

Imagine if we'd had ten corps in finals this year all like Statesemen? It would be the most boring show in the history of the activity.

[KeithHall]

I was never a member of the Empire Statesmen! I almost was in 1990 but chose Crusaders instead. That being said, Vince Bruni's idea of being entertaining to the audience is sorely missed IMO. The fact that they (ES) are gone today saddens me every year! Would love to see all the DCA corps say "Screw it!" and play a show that drum corps fans of all ages can just say they LOVE! I am NOT against what the corps do today but feel that DCA could be more entertaining than their counterpart DCI. EVERYTHING that DCI does eventually gets to DCA and makes the shows less entertaining. 

I LOVE the shows today and the playing is better than ever (the marching? eh) but lets hear something that gets me humming the songs or tapping my foot.

 

WHERE in this post did I say that Empire was the standard bearer for entertainment in drum corps???? I said Vince's idea is missed by me (IMO). 

 

I also said I like what the corps are doing today! My opinion is DCA corps could be more entertaining! That's all! MY OPINION! BTW as far as I know we can still have an opinion in this country. I try not to criticize others. On DCP and any social media it just leads to bad feelings. Ya know what I mean?

 

[cixelsyd]

46 minutes ago, Kamarag said:

The rules are already quite similar, save the performer cap. DCI and DCA have had a back and forth synergy with rules and scoring systems going back decades. DCA's current sheets, in my opinion, are actually a little bit better than DCI's. DCA, for example, places the brass judge in the box (which DCI will eventually do, or at least add one there), and they['ve eliminated field judges completely in the  interest of safety. The major difference between the judging systems is that DCA places more emphasis on general effect and how general effect numbers are derived. The performance and ensemble captions are essentially nearly identical in most respects, which makes total sense.

DCA and DCI are already aligned, and are loose partners in the overall activity. I absolutely do believe the two organizations can grow closer, and should. I'm absolutely no expert in how drum corps are administered, but partnerships on the micro and macro levels are really no-brainer decisions.

It's interesting that you cite "unifying theme" as a "required" element. It isn't. I just reread the DCA sheets and cannot find that anywhere. Corps tend to choose unifying themes because it's just good design...not drum corps design, but production design in general. Corps don't program "variety show" style shows anymore because it's not effective design anymore, especially given the time constraint of the 17 minute performance window.

The performance window has been roughly the same for 90 years.  Yet, variety shows were effective design for decades, but now they are not?

Quote

You also have to consider the evolution of DCA over time. Not from a rules standpoint per se, but in terms of the membership. Members today aren't interested in the same things members were decades ago. They are more intelligent, sophisticated, and have a deeper understanding (in a general sense) of the modern activity. It's only natural that they want to perform shows that have more depth in their programming. Yet they still want to be entertaining, and they are. 

I hope you are not equating "depth" to the presence of a unifying theme.  More importantly, I wish the judging community would not equate the two.  I just find it to be a silly, pseudo-intellectual exercise.  Yes, you can still have a variety of music in a show, provided you contrive a theme like "old, new, borrowed and blue" that somehow justifies those choices.  It is more important to the judges that you play along with that silly game, and less important (no longer necessary, actually) to demonstrate mastery of different musical styles.

Quote

Folks that pine for the days of the Empire Statesmen and that style of programming may not like today's shows, and that's ok. But to intimate that DCA needs more shows like that? Ugh. I found DCI in 2017 to be the most entertaining year in decades, and maybe ever (and I marched my DCI years in the 80's). I think DCA this years was far and away the most entertaining that I have seen (been watching or performing/teaching since 2003).

I was there for the paradigm shift in design (2005 Bucs). I think it's one of the best things to happen to DCA in it's history. But to say DCA isn't wildly entertaining today is again, patently absurd. There's room for a Statesmen or a Statesmen-like corps. Then again, you have to ask yourself why they aren't around anymore (a topic for another day).

Imagine if we'd had ten corps in finals this year all like Statesemen? It would be the most boring show in the history of the activity.

If you really have that big a beef with the Empire Statesmen, take it up with the OP.  My favorite Empire Statesmen shows were in the late 1990s, when they were doing shows with a unifying theme.

[Kamarag]

2 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

It is more important to the judges that you play along with that silly game, and less important (no longer necessary, actually) to demonstrate mastery of different musical styles.

 

I'm not bothering with the rest of your response, but I will take issue here.

Variety of musical styles and variety of effect are both bullets on the music and GE sheets. So yes, it is necessary, and the corps that scored best in effect absolutely display a wide variety of musical styles and skills.

[Kamarag]

8 minutes ago, KeithHall said:

I said Vince's idea is missed by me (IMO). 

 

 

Vince's ides on entertainment are alive and well in DCA.

[Jeff Ream]

12 hours ago, Fred Windish said:

Obviously, everything is personal preference. There is no wrong statement of what someone saw, or would prefer to have seen. But, I'll play along . . .

I saw . . .

more than enough requisite body movements and standardized individual 'frozen poses.'

an increase in short brass 'flourishes,' rather than melodic development. 

show designs reminiscent of Blue Knights, as opposed to an Academy-style I think would be more appropriate.

overuse of bass goo to give the impression of bigger brass sections.

 

Because championship attendance continues to fall, I did not get the impression of a new body of interested customers. I also noted a small number of DCP followers. Particularly troubling was during the announcement of scores.  What was recently 300-400 logged-in, this time stayed at about 50.

You saw something quite different. Fine.

 

 

 

 

odd i thought a lot of that stuff was less this year than the past 2

[Jeff Ream]

12 hours ago, Fred Windish said:

I certainly hope you are right!

Williamsport currently has less available seating than Rochester, so purchase your tickets early!

did today. sadly the map doesnt show me exactly where i am.

[Jeff Ream]

11 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

I had to laugh.  "Give examples of DCA emulating DCI, but not amplification, electronics, trombones, or any other recent rule changes."  That, along with the unifying theme as required element, is precisely how DCA has been emulating DCI.  They are a bit behind with the body vocabulary, props and tarps, but those are coming too.

From this, it sounds like you find it advantageous for DCA to align with DCI.  How would you feel about adopting DCI rules and sheets?  

I dont think they need to adapt the sheets...there's plenty of similarities already, and some things that are unique to DCA.

 

the most confusing is communication. I've seen the sheet and it's basic GE lingo, but it's still perceived as a fans clapped a lot sheet

[Jeff Ream]

11 hours ago, Kamarag said:

 

The rules are already quite similar, save the performer cap. DCI and DCA have had a back and forth synergy with rules and scoring systems going back decades. DCA's current sheets, in my opinion, are actually a little bit better than DCI's. DCA, for example, places the brass judge in the box (which DCI will eventually do, or at least add one there), and they['ve eliminated field judges completely in the  interest of safety. The major difference between the judging systems is that DCA places more emphasis on general effect and how general effect numbers are derived. The performance and ensemble captions are essentially nearly identical in most respects, which makes total sense.

DCA and DCI are already aligned, and are loose partners in the overall activity. I absolutely do believe the two organizations can grow closer, and should. I'm absolutely no expert in how drum corps are administered, but partnerships on the micro and macro levels are really no-brainer decisions.

It's interesting that you cite "unifying theme" as a "required" element. It isn't. I just reread the DCA sheets and cannot find that anywhere. Corps tend to choose unifying themes because it's just good design...not drum corps design, but production design in general. Corps don't program "variety show" style shows anymore because it's not effective design anymore, especially given the time constraint of the 17 minute performance window.

You also have to consider the evolution of DCA over time. Not from a rules standpoint per se, but in terms of the membership. Members today aren't interested in the same things members were decades ago. They are more intelligent, sophisticated, and have a deeper understanding (in a general sense) of the modern activity. It's only natural that they want to perform shows that have more depth in their programming. Yet they still want to be entertaining, and they are. 

Folks that pine for the days of the Empire Statesmen and that style of programming may not like today's shows, and that's ok. But to intimate that DCA needs more shows like that? Ugh. I found DCI in 2017 to be the most entertaining year in decades, and maybe ever (and I marched my DCI years in the 80's). I think DCA this years was far and away the most entertaining that I have seen (been watching or performing/teaching since 2003).

I was there for the paradigm shift in design (2005 Bucs). I think it's one of the best things to happen to DCA in it's history. But to say DCA isn't wildly entertaining today is again, patently absurd. There's room for a Statesmen or a Statesmen-like corps. Then again, you have to ask yourself why they aren't around anymore (a topic for another day).

Imagine if we'd had ten corps in finals this year all like Statesemen? It would be the most boring show in the history of the activity.

here's the thing about Empire people don't get...they had unifying themes. Look at the 96 show, or the musical years of 97-00. 01? Sinatra all show. ( had fun teaching it too. Wish we had had 2 more weeks). Even their last season...Empire's greatest hits. What makes people forget that is Empire often chose to go with more popular known music or standards....Begin the Beguine, Rio, anything Rat Pack. Their last title was music from City of Angels, yet the theme was different. Now corps are being more diverse in their musical offerings, and in fact, i felt at times this year it was getting to be DCi's last 10 years greatest hits, but the corps made it work.

 

and what did this years champion play? 2001. Cabs played Led ####### Zeppelin. who doesnt know App Spring? CV played Firebird. so one cant claim there was all kinds of esoteric stuff when you had Radiohead played on the field.

[Jeff Ream]

10 hours ago, KeithHall said:

I was never a member of the Empire Statesmen! I almost was in 1990 but chose Crusaders instead. That being said, Vince Bruni's idea of being entertaining to the audience is sorely missed IMO. The fact that they (ES) are gone today saddens me every year! Would love to see all the DCA corps say "Screw it!" and play a show that drum corps fans of all ages can just say they LOVE! I am NOT against what the corps do today but feel that DCA could be more entertaining than their counterpart DCI. EVERYTHING that DCI does eventually gets to DCA and makes the shows less entertaining. 

I LOVE the shows today and the playing is better than ever (the marching? eh) but lets hear something that gets me humming the songs or tapping my foot.

 

WHERE in this post did I say that Empire was the standard bearer for entertainment in drum corps???? I said Vince's idea is missed by me (IMO). 

 

I also said I like what the corps are doing today! My opinion is DCA corps could be more entertaining! That's all! MY OPINION! BTW as far as I know we can still have an opinion in this country. I try not to criticize others. On DCP and any social media it just leads to bad feelings. Ya know what I mean?

 

here's the thing...and I loved my time at Empire and miss them.....but for all the claims of being universally beloved....they had just as many people saying "oh God not this stuff". Really, they did. Just as many as people saying Cabs played ####, #### ####, same old ####, #### ####