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are brass soloists allowed to improvise


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41 minutes ago, JAZZER said:

I think a visit to a competitive/adjudicated jazz festival highlighting the talents of under 21 aged musicians might change your opinion.

 

 

 

 Its not " my opinion" that counts for anything on this ( nor yours, or others here for that matter ). The reality... the " FACT "  of the matter is.... that just about all the World Class and Open Class Corps since the beginning of DCI itself have discouraged, if not completely disallowed, their brass soloists to improvise their brass solos from show competition to show competition. How do we know this for " a fact ". ? Well, because, 99% of the time we hear very little change in the brass solos in just about all these 50 some odd Drum Corps from show to show over the years. If Corps were granting exclusive rights for their brass soloists to wing it from show to show in their brass  solos we'd be hearing it. But.... we don't. The brass solos, are pretty much identical in arrangements from show to show. When the changes ARE made in the solos arrangements, it is almost exclusively changed by the Brass people that are PAID to make such show performance decisions. On some rare ocasions, a brass soloist ( such as in BD ) has input with the instructors to allow minimal manipulatiion in the prescribed solo from show to show, but even in these cases, there is no on the fly improvisational brass arrangement change from show to show that is of much noticeable change. Certainly not in most people's understanding of the conventional understanding of " improvisational brass playing " in the music world anyway. Brass arrangers typically are leary of brass solos improvisational playing due to the very real threat that potential timing issues with such improvisational brass solos can wreck havoc with other Corps sections. Corps marchers are notorious creatures of precision & practice habits. Change the brass solo in any substantive way without their preparation during a show performance and it can easily throw off their timing. So its not an " opinion " that just about all DCI Brass arrangers frown on brass solo improvisation to any large degree, its a " fact " that most all either discourage it, or outright disallow it without their permission.

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11 minutes ago, Stu said:

IMO, most symphony orchestras suck at jazz; most concert wind ensembles suck at jazz; their approach of 'play the notes on the page as clinically exact and precise as possible' butcher the feel and sound. The same holds true for most of the competitive marching ensembles.

An orchestra is an ensemble, we are talking about individuals improvising, correct?

 

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Just now, JAZZER said:

An orchestra is an ensemble, we are talking about individuals improvising, correct?

 

Sure, but the ensemble in a jazz band does not read and perform the black notes on the page in a clinical manner the way a symphonic orchestra does.

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2 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Its not " my opinion" that counts for anything on this ( nor yours, or others here for that matter ). The reality... the " FACT "  of the matter is.... that just about all the World Class and Open Class Corps since the beginning of DCI itself have discouraged, if not completely disallowed, their brass soloists to improvise their brass solos from show competition to show competition. How do we know this for " a fact ". Because, 99& of the time we hear very little change in the brass solos in just about all these 50 some odd Drum Corps from sghow to show. If Corps were granting exclusive rights for their brass soloists to wing it from show to show in their brass  solos we'd be hearing it. But.... we don't. The brass solos, are pretty much identical in arrangements from show to show. When the changes ARE mase in the solos arrangements, it is almost exclusively changed by the Brass people that are PAID to make such show performance decisions. On some rare ocasions, a brass soloist ( such as in BD ) has input with the instructors to allow minimal manipulatiion in the prescribed solo from show to show, but even in these cases, there is no on the fly improvisational brass arrangement change from show to show that is of much noticeable change. Certainly not in most people's understanding of the conventional understanding of " improvisational brass playing " in the music world anyway. Brass arrangers typically are leary of brass solos improvisational playing due to the very real threat that timing issues can wreck havoc with other Corps sections. Corps marchers are creatures of precision habit. Change the brass solo in any substantive way without their preparation and it can easily throw off their timing. So its not an " opinion " that just about all DCI Brass arrangers frown on brass solo improvisation to any large degree, its a " fact " that most all either discourage it, or outright disallow it without their permission.

Haha!

So you KNOW, for 'fact".....hahahaaaa... I can't stop laughing....excuse me. That soloists at BD, mind you......Hahahaha....still laughing,..... have a conversation, in which he/she discusses the....oh, I can HARDLY type this..."manipulation" of a solo.

By goodness! You do have connections on the "inside".............even to witness a "Rare" event which you describe......

BTW who disallowed it? 

Which Brass arrangers are leary of it?

Again, stop with the "wing it" terminology. Improvisation involves decisions. 

I suggest you listen to some Kilties & Bridgeman  as verification!

Look, I have NO doubt that today's talent in DCI, with their, as you say "threat to timing issues" can handle those scenarios involving an improvised soloist. Gee, hard to believe, but yes, They ARE that good........ c'mon man. Remember, in your description....they are "creatures of precision habit".  It is my opinion that you have never been on a jazz stage when I consider this slam to the abilities of fellow performers. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Stu said:

Sure, but the ensemble in a jazz band does not read and perform the black notes on the page in a clinical manner the way a symphonic orchestra does.

Incorrect.

Ensembles play the written chart, the solo sections have improvisation.

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14 minutes ago, JAZZER said:

 

Which Brass arrangers are leary of it?

 

 All of em. Every one of the dozens I've met over the years, anyway. Sometimes they'll allow a brass soloist to hit a triple C or some such if they feel comfortable at the moment in a show performance. They're can be some ever so slight variations sometimes heard in the solos from show to show in a Corps performance. But the OP's question is asking us here if there is " improvisational brass playing " in brass solos from show to show. The answer is " No". If we are looking for improvisational brass solo playing in DCI ( with the conventional definition of " improvisational brass playing " ( as uniquely differet from show to show ), we don't find it in DCI  Corps competition. The brass solos tend to be the same from show to show, unless changed at practice beforhand. There is very little individual " winging it " in brass solos that have ever occured in DCI, even with " the Kilties, Bridgemen  et al". Their brass solos were pretty much identical in arrangement playing from show to show, with very little " improvisation " in the playing. Where we DO see brass solo improvisation is in DCI I & E INDIVIDUAL competitions over the years.  But in DCI Corps competitions ? No. I don't detect it.'never have either. Even with BD. BD's brass solos this year from show to show were remarkably the same from show to show... not different thru " improvisational brass playing " in the least. Maybe you heard BD at different shows than I did though... who knows.

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36 minutes ago, Stu said:

IMO, most symphony orchestras suck at jazz; most concert wind ensembles suck at jazz; their approach of 'play the notes on the page as clinically exact and precise as possible' butcher the feel and sound. The same holds true for most of the competitive marching ensembles.

True, but many ensembles have multi-talented musicians [jazz competent soloists]. Quite honestly, almost without exception, every competent jazz soloist I know can play "the spots off the page". Really easy, actually .

I look at some of the Bluecoats years with their great arrangements of jazz standards. Truly wonderful creations. I would not be surprised if there was a soloist in their ranks that could have performed a killer improvised solo during one of those arrangements.

Never mind that "some" would downgrade the presentation as "winging it". 

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14 minutes ago, JAZZER said:

Incorrect.

Ensembles play the written chart, the solo sections have improvisation.

I did not say the ensembles improv, I said there is a vast difference in the interp of the written notes in both feel and sound. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra will approach the music of Duke Ellington in a vastly different manner than the Harry Connick Jr. Big Band. They both will play in triplet, but the CSO will be clinical and the HACK band will swing hard!!

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4 minutes ago, JAZZER said:

True, but many ensembles have multi-talented musicians [jazz competent soloists]. Quite honestly, almost without exception, every competent jazz soloist I know can play "the spots off the page". Really easy, actually .

I look at some of the Bluecoats years with their great arrangements of jazz standards. Truly wonderful creations. I would not be surprised if there was a soloist in their ranks that could have performed a killer improvised solo during one of those arrangements.

Never mind that "some" would downgrade the presentation as "winging it". 

Most symphonic trained players cannot swing. Some can crossover, like Wynton, but most are way to clinical in their sound and feel. Which is wonderful for symphonic, but square as #### for jazz.

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2 minutes ago, Stu said:

I did not say the ensembles improv, I said there is a vast difference in the interp of the written notes in both feel and sound. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra will approach the music of Duke Ellington in a vastly different manner than the Harry Connick Jr. Big Band. They both will play in triplet, but the CSO will be clinical and the HACK band will swing hard!!

AGREED! nor did I.

But, they will not improvise the written, as per the meaning of improvisation.[soloing over chord changes]

We agree .

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