Inside the Arc – Color Pre or Take a Knee

[BRASSO]

44 minutes ago, ironlips said:

Well, OK. The leadership of the Reveries formed a new corps. Perhaps "morphed" was a bit of a stretch there.

Still, the point is that a protest produced a result. The thrust of the article was the freedom of expression, and the purpose was to generate a discussion thereof, within the context of how that played itself out in drum corps.

It is, after all, a microcosm or "the real world", after all.

Thanks for your thoughts, wherever they lead.

  Its true that all protests produce some degree of " consequences " ( some good, some neutral, some bad). The " results " of protests can be productive, counterproductive, meaningful, or meaningless,.. and I suppose everything under the sun. We did have a good discussion on this thread on the subject matter of Protest, Freedom of Expression, the Flag,  ( not so much on" Color Presentations " or Kneeling " ) Honor, and " Honor Guards " their history,  All Male Guards, Co- Ed Guards, and even how other Countries handle their citizens found dishonoring their Nation's Flag, and so forth. Thanks for your input, as well.

Edited October 27, 2017 by BRASSO

[cixelsyd]

11 hours ago, ironlips said:

So, just to bring this full circle and back to drum corps, protests always produce results of one kind or another. When the Immaculate Conception Reveries protested their placement by occupying the starting line in a sit-down demonstration years ago, they were summarily DQ-ed.

Technically, no.  The Reveries had already been eliminated in prelims.  There was nothing left for them to be "disqualified" from by the time they staged their starting-line protest during finals.

[BRASSO]

3 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Technically, no.  The Reveries had already been eliminated in prelims.  There was nothing left for them to be "disqualified" from by the time they staged their starting-line protest during finals.

 This is also accurate. After about a 15 minute delay as they sat on the starting line on finals night, the VFW show officials after huddling did allow the Corps to perform in the show, but without judges, and without any scoring... essentially they did an exhibition performance.

Edited October 27, 2017 by BRASSO

[ironlips]

So let's talk about the kneeling part, as opposed to, say, raising a fist or turning one's back on a public official.

Historically, to kneel suggests submission, no? One kneels to the king, or the pope, or at the altar. Does this not show respect?

Urban legend holds that the left-handed use of a dinner fork derived from a subtle code  signalling sympathy for the Colonial cause during the American Revolution. If so, it was a "protest" of common etiquette, British etiquette.

To the extent that it bolstered confidence and unity among the rebels it contributed to their success and the eventual constitution guaranteeing the right of protest.

(Well, that's a bit of a stretch, too.)

Meanwhile, von Steuben was developing drill and ceremonies which actually would morph into certain flag etiquette protocols that ultimately led to the "Flag Code" observed for a long time in drum corps, the Byzantine requirements of which resulted in restricting and frustrating drill writers for years.

Many a show was lost on penalties like "trailing violations", whereby the National Color was preceded on the same plane by another banner anywhere else on the field, even for an instant.

All this was to show deference to our national symbol. Eventually there was enough protest among the corps themselves that the requirement for displaying the flag itself was dropped.

(Aside: It was becoming difficult to defend "requiring" overt patriotism as the ranks of young Americans, many of whom were drum corps-connected, had been decimated by conscription into a war increasingly seen as absurd. But that is another discussion for another day.)

The flag, however, remains a most important symbol, more important than those who use it for political purposes, whether burning it or wrapping themselves with it, or anything in between.

[BRASSO]

1 hour ago, ironlips said:

 

Historically, to kneel suggests submission, no? One kneels to the king, or the pope, or at the altar. Does this not show respect?

 

 Context determines this... as well as motive. If you are asking us if the NFL " kneelers " for example were, by the actions, coupled with their " kneeling " were  suggesting " submission ", or " respect " to the Flag, anthem, well of course the undeniable answer is... " no ". Heck, even the NFL " kneelers", themselves would not suggest they were demonstrating " submission " to anyone or anything, nor demonstrating " respect " to the Flag.. So I'm not quite getting what you are driving at with the analogy here to Kings, Pope's, the altar, and so forth regarding the " kneeling " in these circumstances by these " kneelers " out of " submission" honor, and/ or" respect".

Edited October 27, 2017 by BRASSO

[ironlips]

Of course I agree with Brasso.  The footballers are not showing submission; quite the opposite I expect.

My personal opinion is that their kneeling is a rather odd gesture for protest. Still, that's their choice. And from their perspective it's not really about the flag at all. I think they are protesting what they perceive as an injustice and are simply taking the opportunity to do so very publicly.

The kneeling gesture in this context is  lame in my opinion, albeit completely "legal".

Others want to spin this as some disrespect for the flag. I do not believe that is the intent.

Since 9/11 there has been a resurgence of respect for what the colors represent, I think. In my view, that is a good thing. It matters not if one is a Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Federalist or whatever. This is our country, collectively. Drum Corps has always been one of the manifestations of that, flag or no flag.

 

[Stu]

16 hours ago, BRASSO said:

...Heck, even the NFL " kneelers", themselves would not suggest they were demonstrating " submission " to anyone or anything,,.

 

5 hours ago, ironlips said:

...The footballers are not showing submission; quite the opposite I expect...

But the players are paid millions of dollars each year to submit to the directions of their employer while in uniform. And if the command from the employer was 'knock it off', and they did not submit, that is grounds for their dismissal. Again, when someone is on the clock working for an employer, that person is a representative of the employer not a representative of self; the freedom of speech of the employer in that situation takes precident over the freedom of speech of the employee and the employee should submit or get removed from the field. So either the NFL admins and team owners agree with the kneeling, or the NFL and team owners are just too scared of the players to tell them to knock it off and remove them from the field.

[Stu]

God how I miss Tom Landry and Vince Lombardi. If coaches of true character like them would stand up to this current nonsense it would be over in a hurry for those players who did not submit!!!

[skevinp]

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Edited October 28, 2017 by skevinp

[elphaba01]

On 10/26/2017 at 11:05 PM, BRASSO said:

 The I.C. Reveries did not become the 27th Lancers however.. nor did they " morph " into anything else. The 1.C. Reveries continued on as a Drum Corps for more than a decade after the 1966 incident at the VFW Nationals.. The Mgt of the 27th Lancers left the I.C. Reveries after the '66 incident, and started their own Drum Corps, and named their brand new Corps the 27th Lancers, and copywrited the name. Years later, for example, when an alumni/ reunion Corps " 27th Lancers " group decided to keep that " 27th Lancers " name ( beyond '94), the original owners of the ' 27th Lancers " name went into court and got a court order for that Corps to drop the name . They  protested that court order,  but then acquiesced, and agreed to change the name  from the" 27th Lancers" to "The Light Brigade". Ironically, neither the 1.C. Reveries, 27th Lancers, nor The Light Brigade  ( all once fine Corps )perform any longer in either competitions, nor exhibitions. Finally, I'm not quite sure what any of this has to do with the subject matter, which is principally the American Flag, Color Presentations, its history, Freedoms and/ or Protests with the Flag, etc and so forth. Oh well.. we  occasionally digress from time to time on here, and thats fine too, imo.

"I.C. Reveries to 27th Lancers"

"Legend" has it that the "I.C" Reveries (of 1966 VFW sitin fame), continued through the 1967season participating in the World Open show (Among others),  and the instructors, members and the eventual director of "Two Seven"  the late George Bonfiglio (Who had been a quartermaster for Revere),  founded the Lancers in the Fall of that year.

"Legend" also has it that there was another "Reveries" junior corps that continued until the 1974 season, after which most of it's membership were absorbed by the 27th Lancers.

If there are any Reveries, or Lancers alums out there PLEASE jump in and lend clarification to all of this.      

Elphaba