BRASSO Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Tim K said: It's interesting you say this. I know some have claimed for years that dance and body movement are a part of drum corps, and believe the judges may understand precision, but in many cases they do not know how to judge dance. One person I know who has claimed this has followed drum corps for years, marched as a young woman, has instructed guards and now teaches dance, but she did not instruct at a time dance was part of most drum corps shows. Now as I write this, I know dance folks are often detail oriented and perfectionists, and that would apply to this woman, but I do wonder as we see more and more added: electronics, the use of props, different instruments in the front ensemble, narration, vocals, etc., judges know what is good, and how the pieces come together, but do they know the intricacies of all the parts individually? Beyond the experience,training, credentials, with judging " dance " routines in DCI... we have the added dilemna on the qualifications, credentials, experience, etc on judging " Voice "... and/ or Voice Ensembles, ie " Choirs ".... or the degrees, training, etc in " Engineering " that judges might increasingly need to possess now in order to effectively judge shows that now are so heavily imbued with electronic manipulations of the sounds coming from either real. live musicians/ singers and / or artifically created electronically produced musical passages and/ or singing voices. Its getting hard to judge these days imo... as how does one score a real voice( s) in competitiion ( with its potential human flaws ) vs an engineered created faux voice that is guaranteed to be perfectly" sung" at each performance ? or adding elecrtonic wizardry to augment and change the brass and/ or percussion sounds in competition vs. real, live, brass and/ or. percussion playing without such engineering manipulations ? And 50 other things that make modern judging so difficult an undertaking now, imo Edited October 8, 2017 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Older shows (pre, say 1985) would not score well under today's system. And today's shows would not score well under the old system (even adjusting for show length and instrumentation differences - in other words no over/under-time penalties, or DQ over Corps size, instrumentation, or electronics). If you took one of today's Corps, say Blue Devils, and made them conform to the 1976 rules, they would look a lot like the 1976 Blue Devils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 It's possible today's judges feel the older judging systems were off the mark. I doubt many feel the actual judges were bad or that they didn't get it. Judges from the 1970s did not deal with electronics, amps, singing, the more casual use of props, and the modern design and integration of guard into the total show. The judging system was setup to penalize mistakes more so than to reward great design. It was ultimately about who marched and played the best, with some GE thrown in for good measure. The Blue Devils and SCV were masters of this period, with Madison giving us a perfect show in 1975. The 80s saw a shift to the Build-Up system (1984 I think). Judges from this era -- 1984 through the 1990s or so -- were asked to look for artistry is design, demand and exposure to error, and the GE caption began to take on more importance. Design trumped performance providing the corps with the better design could clean enough to be in the ballpark of the corps that performed the best. The Garfield Cadets were the classic example of a corps built to take advantage of this style. From 1983 to 1998 they won 7 titles with smart design, excellence performance (even if not the best in some areas), plenty of demand, and great integration of all show elements. The main differences I see today compared to the 70s, 80, and 90s are as follows: You need to CLEAN. Effect is better than demand. How difficult does something really need to be? Tough question. There is a fine line. But I believe today's judges are looking for a cross between good demand with excellent effect qualities. What is considered demand? Simply marching blazing fast traditional drill and playing a killer music book are no longer the only things judges consider to be demanding. Body movement, dance, jazz running, guard integration, artistic performance qualities, and other elements have been tossed in. Hence the reason some are saying "variety" is the new king. They are right. I think judges today have great respect for their predecessors, but today's judges clearly have different criteria to consider. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 7 hours ago, BRASSO said: Yes. But it works both ways too. There are former long time DCI judges, long time staffers/ show designers in Corps that are no longer involved in the activity that believe that too many of today's judges/ staffers/ show designers are " badly off the mark " now too. It happens sometimes in sports too. There are lots of former HOF basketball players, HOF Basketball Coaches that are on record stating they would never sit thru a current NBA Basketball game anymore. Its true in lots of other sports too. yes, when was the last time you heard the BB ref call travelling, palming, or 3 seconds? Besides all the nets should be raised to 12 feet if the average of the heights of players is above 6"2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Land_Surfer Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 hours ago, BRASSO said: in order to effectively judge shows that now are so heavily imbued with electronic manipulations of the sounds coming from either real. live musicians/ singers and / or artifically created electronically produced musical passages and/ or singing voices. Those corps "so heavily imbued with electronic manipulations of sounds and/or artificially created electronically produced musical passages" are not drum and bugle corps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Land_Surfer said: Those corps "so heavily imbued with electronic manipulations of sounds and/or artificially created electronically produced musical passages" are not drum and bugle corps! DUCK AND COVER Land_ Surfer !!....... INCOMING !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, BRASSO said: DUCK AND COVER Land_ Surfer !!....... INCOMING !!! For the time being maybe, only from those on the West Coast and further West. But, there's always tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Ghost said: For the time being maybe, only from those on the West Coast and further West. But, there's always tomorrow. Maybe others here know what you mean with this, but whatever you mean, at the moment that message has just flown right clear over my head, Ghost... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, BRASSO said: Maybe others here know what you mean with this, but whatever you mean, at the moment that message has just flown right clear over my head, Ghost... lol I'm guessing most DCP folks East of the West Coast are in bed or off of DCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Land_Surfer Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) What's wrong with the exclusivity of drums (all percussion), bugles and color guard? The thrill of watching & listening to an "unplugged" drum and bugle corps is to hear & watch how they can do so much with so little. It's called creativity and it isn't artificial and makes for a true meaningful educational, entertaining and memorable experience for all (designers, instructors, performers, judges and audience). I cant imagine any benefit that electronic instruments or amplification could lend to improving a show so well performed as this. This is real drum and bugle corps at its finest. My fear is that we aren't too far away from corps not being able to perform like this any more. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9pIxU03To Closer with visual M&M https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YYVaHmgrLr8 Edited October 9, 2017 by Land_Surfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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