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George Dixon

Time for NO size limit in WC (or at least up it from 150)

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16 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:
7 hours ago, Stu said:

Out of everything I have helped out with over the years, securing housing sites has been the the most difficult by far. And it is getting harder each year.

they also do not see the economics of it all. the casual fan may feel priced out because prices will have to rise to offset the costs associated with more bodies

 

8 hours ago, joe mama said:

These are interesting but irrelevant points when you consider the real aspects of managing such a change.  Increasing the allowable corps size would create e

8 hours ago, joe mama said:

These are interesting but irrelevant points when you consider the real aspects of managing such a change.  Increasing the allowable corps size would create extreme logistical and other challenges regardless of the any corps' ability to afford and manage.  Additionally, the vast majority of available housing sites would simply not be able to handle the increased numbers.   Acceptable housing is perhaps the biggest challenge to any show promoter.  Just ask anyone who has ever managed an event.  I've done about 50 and in some areas, it's a nightmare.

xtreme logistical and other challenges regardless of the any corps' ability to afford and manage.  Additionally, the vast majority of available housing sites would simply not be able to handle the increased numbers.   Acceptable housing is perhaps the biggest challenge to any show promoter.  Just ask anyone who has ever managed an event.  I've done about 50 and in some areas, it's a nightmare.

 

 

8 hours ago, joe mama said:

These are interesting but irrelevant points when you consider the real aspects of managing such a change.  Increasing the allowable corps size would create extreme logistical and other challenges regardless of the any corps' ability to afford and manage.  Additionally, the vast majority of available housing sites would simply not be able to handle the increased numbers.   Acceptable housing is perhaps the biggest challenge to any show promoter.  Just ask anyone who has ever managed an event.  I've done about 50 and in some areas, it's a nightmare.

we know what some of the logistics problems are (one of which is schools opening Aug 1st in the Indianapolis area)  Pulling a tractor trailer from housing in the Cincinnati suburbs to and from Lukas Oil Stadium makes one graphically aware of the housing problem.  (what could go wrong there?) It has not happened yet, but at some point a corps is going to miss their appearance due to equipment breakdown, closed roads due to some catastrophe, or whatever else.  !!!  yes there are  logistical problems.  20 members more or less is not going to change that situation.  DCI seems to have little leverage with Indianapolis being locked into a contract at this time. In my regular job, having to pay up to $2000 above the norm in graft to get dockage for 30 hrs. in lagos, Nigeria or Forteleza, Brazil has me well aware of logistical problems. Not to mention politics  !

We do have to work at housing, and I can understand your concern. Just do not feel we have to constrain the activity (within reason) if there could be workable solutions to the problem

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1 hour ago, bluehull said:

 

we know what some of the logistics problems are (one of which is schools opening Aug 1st in the Indianapolis area)  Pulling a tractor trailer from housing in the Cincinnati suburbs to and from Lukas Oil Stadium makes one graphically aware of the housing problem.  (what could go wrong there?) It has not happened yet, but at some point a corps is going to miss their appearance due to equipment breakdown, closed roads due to some catastrophe, or whatever else.  !!!  yes there are  logistical problems.  20 members more or less is not going to change that situation.  DCI seems to have little leverage with Indianapolis being locked into a contract at this time. In my regular job, having to pay up to $2000 above the norm in graft to get dockage for 30 hrs. in lagos, Nigeria or Forteleza, Brazil has me well aware of logistical problems. Not to mention politics  !

We do have to work at housing, and I can understand your concern. Just do not feel we have to constrain the activity (within reason) if there could be workable solutions to the problem

Your international name dropping doesn't add to the discussion.

If corps haven't been able to solve housing problems with current size units why do you think they will be able to get better housing with hippopotamus size units? A school gym only holds so many. Schools in session for Finals make available housing worse. Hotels for large groups are also not that available. College dorms are already in use by colleges.

So many of the bandos are avoiding the aspect of that drill charts by DCI standards , not the park and bark Saturday afternoon h.s. and college bands, will have to dummy down to accommodate the added members. The uniqueness of DCI has been the dynamicism of presentation doing so much on the field with 128, 135, and now 150.

Finally, drum corps and DCI were founded as means of a youth activity using drum corps performance as a way of forming teens into wonderful adults. When sponsoring organizations questioned whether mere performance was achieving that goal, scout groups, CYO, churches, community groups, and veterans posts began to fold smaller corps in light of the ever demanding and increasing fiscal budgets of the corps. Massachusetts alone went from 5 distinct circuits down to one competing junior corps whose membership is now international.

My point is the larger the unit, the more distant the members grow from guided character development except for hiring more musical technicians. As we see from other threads generating petitions, being good at music and being good as a person are not the same. Larger staffs will be needed not just as instrumental and marching faculty but as admins., volunteers, and counselors.  The growth is not arithmetic but geometric in numbers and demand.

Edited by xandandl
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25 minutes ago, xandandl said:

Your international name dropping doesn't add to the discussion.

If corps haven't been able to solve housing problems with current size units why do you think they will be able to get better housing with hippopotamus size units? A school gym only holds so many. Schools in session for Finals make available housing worse. Hotels for large groups are also not that available. College dorms are already in use by colleges.

So many of the bandos are avoiding the aspect of that drill charts by DCI standards , not the park and bark Saturday afternoon h.s. and college bands, will have to dummy down to accommodate the added members. The uniqueness of DCI has been the dynamicism of presentation doing so much on the field with 128, 135, and now 150.

Finally, drum corps and DCI were founded as means of a youth activity using drum corps performance as a way of forming teens into wonderful adults. When sponsoring organizations questioned whether mere performance was achieving that goal, scout groups, CYO, churches, community groups, and veterans posts began to fold smaller corps in light of the ever demanding and increasing fiscal budgets of the corps. Massachusetts alone went from 5 distinct circuits down to one competing junior corps whose membership is now international.

My point is the larger the unit, the more distant the members grow from guided character development except for hiring more musical technicians. As we see from other threads generating petitions, being good at music and being good as a person are not the same. Larger staffs will be needed not just as instrumental and marching faculty but as admins., volunteers, and counselors.  The growth is not arithmetic but geometric in numbers and demand.

Oh, the irony.

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Two thoughts:

We hear in many posts in other threads that there are some corps that have all kinds of funds available, almost as if they have money to throw around. We also hear about top corps that have financial issues and some that have trouble paying bills. Before corps are allowed to have an unlimited size, or even increase to let's say 200, it has to be well planned financially. I can't say that I recall all the discussions prior to increasing to 150, but I seem to recall that filling the coach busses was the strongest argument. Filling coach busses lowered the transportation costs of a corps since the average cost was spread across a larger number of riders. It added to food and other costs, but dues would have covered these costs, so it was a wise financial decision for some corps. Before corps are increased in size, viable financial plans have to be in order.

The thought if mega corps with unlimited talent is enticing, but there are a few downsides. As opera fans know well, dream team casts are expensive for the opera company and rarely live up to the hype. We've also had examples of dream teams in the athletic world that have sometimes amazed but have also been major disappointments. There would also be tremendous egos involved. Larger corps would also lead to losing the allure of being a Blue Devil, a Cadet, a Cavalier, a a Boston Crusader, etc. The larger the number, the less selective. 

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4 hours ago, bluehull said:

 

we know what some of the logistics problems are (one of which is schools opening Aug 1st in the Indianapolis area)  Pulling a tractor trailer from housing in the Cincinnati suburbs to and from Lukas Oil Stadium makes one graphically aware of the housing problem.  (what could go wrong there?) It has not happened yet, but at some point a corps is going to miss their appearance due to equipment breakdown, closed roads due to some catastrophe, or whatever else.  !!!  yes there are  logistical problems.  20 members more or less is not going to change that situation.  DCI seems to have little leverage with Indianapolis being locked into a contract at this time. In my regular job, having to pay up to $2000 above the norm in graft to get dockage for 30 hrs. in lagos, Nigeria or Forteleza, Brazil has me well aware of logistical problems. Not to mention politics  !

We do have to work at housing, and I can understand your concern. Just do not feel we have to constrain the activity (within reason) if there could be workable solutions to the problem

DCI is happy with Indy because of perks and financial incentives. if more corps stay in hotels, better for all!

 

but the issue is so much more than housing when it comes to costs increasing. And revenue wont offset it

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1 hour ago, skevinp said:

I must admit I didn't realize people couldn't find housing any closer to Indianapolis than Brazil or Nigeria.

makes Evansville look rural

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5 hours ago, bluehull said:

 

we know what some of the logistics problems are (one of which is schools opening Aug 1st in the Indianapolis area)  Pulling a tractor trailer from housing in the Cincinnati suburbs to and from Lukas Oil Stadium makes one graphically aware of the housing problem.  (what could go wrong there?) It has not happened yet, but at some point a corps is going to miss their appearance due to equipment breakdown, closed roads due to some catastrophe, or whatever else.  !!!  yes there are  logistical problems.  20 members more or less is not going to change that situation.  DCI seems to have little leverage with Indianapolis being locked into a contract at this time. In my regular job, having to pay up to $2000 above the norm in graft to get dockage for 30 hrs. in lagos, Nigeria or Forteleza, Brazil has me well aware of logistical problems. Not to mention politics  !

We do have to work at housing, and I can understand your concern. Just do not feel we have to constrain the activity (within reason) if there could be workable solutions to the problem

I believe corps have missed shows due to traffic issues. At some point during Boston's "Big Dig" I seem to remember a corps being late due to traffic. I can't remember the corps or the show, though it must have taken place in either Beverly or Lynn, MA and a few corps performed encores while we waited for them to arrive. However, when it comes to Indy, I think most corps give themselves ample time so they would not miss a performance and if there was a genuine catastrophe, accommodations would be made, and such catastrophes can happen in any city. Also, the housing issues are due to the school year begining prior to Labor Day in most parts of the country. So I wouldn't blame Indy for all these issues.

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