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2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

while i think SCV should have won, on 8/13, per fromthepressbox.com, SCV had a 94.3 and Madison had a 93.9

 

on 8/6, SCV had a 92.2, and Madison 90.4. so in a week Madison knocked 1.4 off of the deficit. Going down South energized Madison because on 8/3, they were .1 behind The Cadets

No matter how it is sliced or spun, the fact is that whether someone uses the last regular season scores or an average of all season, on the morning of 8/19/88, the day of Semi-Finals the Scouts were seeded 7th behind SCV, BD, Cavaliers, Cadets, Regiment, and Star. But by the end of that day, yet not known to the public until 24 hrs later, the Scouts jumped 5 points and leaped from 7th to 1st in that one show.

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11 hours ago, Stu said:

If not the secrecy of score/ranking from Fri Semis in 1988, what else would explain an immediate 5 point jump and a leap from a 7th seed going into Semis to first going into Finals? Did they really increase that drastically in quality from the previous show just prior to Semis?

Thank you for proving my point.  

FWIW, Madison was within .4 of SCV a week before finals, and no one would have said boo if Vanguard had won on Finals night, since there was a general consensus among those who know what was what that it was a title-worth show and performance. Unless one wants to believe that it's impossible for a corps to make up .4 in a week's time, there's no reason for anyone to doubt the legitimacy of Madison's win. Unless that anyone is a complete d-bag, of course.

Edited by Slingerland
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1 hour ago, Slingerland said:

Thank you for proving my point.  

FWIW, Madison was within .4 of SCV a week before finals, and no one would have said boo if Vanguard had won on Finals night, since there was a general consensus among those who know what was what that it was a title-worth show and performance. Unless one wants to believe that it's impossible for a corps to make up .4 in a week's time, there's no reason for anyone to doubt the legitimacy of Madison's win. Unless that anyone is a complete d-bag, of course.

So... taking the agrigate scores and rankings from 7/9 to 8/18, especially when going head to head, I have somehow proved your point that it was understandable and reasonable that they leaped ahead of BD, Cadets, SCV, etc.., which they had never beaten prior to 8/19, and jumped in quality a whole 5 points as well as 7 placements from Joplin 92.7, their last show before Semis, to 97.8 and 1st place at Semis; and that 'proves' your understandable and reasonable point how?

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16 hours ago, Stu said:

If not the secrecy of score/ranking from Fri Semis in 1988, what else would explain an immediate 5 point jump and a leap from a 7th seed going into Semis to first going into Finals? Did they really increase that drastically in quality from the previous show just prior to Semis?

Why not? As Jeff says, the last time Madison had faced any of the top six corps, six days before Semifinals, they had finished just 0.4 pts. behind Vanguard. That was a week since the previous time Madison had faced any of the top six corps, when they had finished 1.8 pts. behind Vanguard. If they had cut their deficit by 1.4 pts. in that week, who would have been shocked to find they'd improved by that much again (and a little more) in the subsequent week?

In short, there's no "5 point jump". Every year, people remind each other on these forums of the risk in comparing scores from different shows. That score of 92.7 you cite as the last Scouts earned before championships saw them facing corps that would finish ninth, tenth, and fifteenth. If Scouts were only 0.4 behind SCV on Aug. 13, but only 3.0 ahead of Spirit on Aug. 14, does that mean that SCV was really only 3.4 ahead of Spirit? Should everyone have been shocked that SCV was 7.3 pts. ahead of Spirit in Finals?

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4 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Why not? As Jeff says, the last time Madison had faced any of the top six corps, six days before Semifinals, they had finished just 0.4 pts. behind Vanguard. That was a week since the previous time Madison had faced any of the top six corps, when they had finished 1.8 pts. behind Vanguard. If they had cut their deficit by 1.4 pts. in that week, who would have been shocked to find they'd improved by that much again (and a little more) in the subsequent week?

In short, there's no "5 point jump". Every year, people remind each other on these forums of the risk in comparing scores from different shows. That score of 92.7 you cite as the last Scouts earned before championships saw them facing corps that would finish ninth, tenth, and fifteenth. If Scouts were only 0.4 behind SCV on Aug. 13, but only 3.0 ahead of Spirit on Aug. 14, does that mean that SCV was really only 3.4 ahead of Spirit? Should everyone have been shocked that SCV was 7.3 pts. ahead of Spirit in Finals?

Granted all judging is subjective; but it is not only raw scores that can be pointed out. They also were 'seeded' around 7th going into Semis, had never beat BD, SCV head to head, and had bounced around being in front of and behind Star, Regiment, Cavaliers, Cadets head to head all season especially being behind them in Aug going into Finals. Moving from 7th at the end of regular season to 4th or 3rd in Semis/Finals would be understandable and reasonable; 7th to 1st within just a single show..... that does not pass the sniff test unless both a) they drastically increased in quality in that very short time, 'combined' with b) none of the other six increased in quality that much in the same short time period. As for viability, item a) yep possible; but item b) not seeing that as viable. One or two of those other six would have also increased in quality at the same pace or better as they did which would have put them in 4th or 3rd after Semis. And the secrecy of the Fri scores allowed the masking of scores until after Finals were over on Sat.

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Except that they didn't jump from seventh to first in a single show. To claim they did is fantasy. Tell me, in the last show before finals week where they placed 0.4 behind SCV, where between these two did the other five corps fit?  They didn't. SCV finish the season in second. That tells me Scouts "jumped" from second to first, not much of a conspiracy. 

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1 hour ago, HockeyDad said:

Except that they didn't jump from seventh to first in a single show. To claim they did is fantasy. Tell me, in the last show before finals week where they placed 0.4 behind SCV, where between these two did the other five corps fit?  They didn't. SCV finish the season in second. That tells me Scouts "jumped" from second to first, not much of a conspiracy. 

These are the facts (hat tip to fromthepressbox)

A) From 7/9/88 to Semis on 8/19/88 the Scouts never beat BD, SCV, the Cadets, or Star in regular season 'head to head' competition; and they only beat Regiment and The Cavaliers once each in July but not in Aug.

B) As for the very last regular season scores for each corps prior to the secret scoring 1988 Semi-Finals:

Cadets 94.8 on 8/14
Regiment 94.5 on 8/15
Star 94.3 on 8/13
SCV 94.2 on 8/15
The Cavaliers 93.6 on 8/15
BD 93.5 on 8/13
Scouts 92.7 on 8/14

So, no matter how you want to spin it,  A, B, or a combination of AB, they were seeded 7th, maybe 6th, going into Semis. And they scored a 97.8 in Semis, a full 5 points from their previous show and over 3 points over the last SCV show, not .4.

Edited by Stu
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2 hours ago, Stu said:

So, no matter how you want to spin it,  A, B, or a combination of AB, they were seeded 7th, maybe 6th, going into Semis. And they scored a 97.8 in Semis, a full 5 points from their previous show and over 3 points over the last SCV show, not .4.

But all you're really saying with this is that where a corps is seeded, as you describe it, doesn't mean as much as head-to-head scoring.

In that regard, Scouts went:

--from 3.1 points behind SCV on Aug. 2,

--to 1.8 points behind SCV on Aug. 4 and Aug. 6,

--to 0.4 points behind SCV on Aug. 13,

--to 1.4 points ahead of SCV at Semifinals on Aug. 19.

During that time, nobody else beat SCV until Semifinals, where they were also 0.3 points behind BD.

(Actually, it looks like SCV had not beaten BD at all during the season until they finally overtook them at Finals. Is that right? If so, I'm surprised we don't hear more complaints from BD fans that they didn't win that year.)

So the careful observer would have seen that Madison was making great strides against SCV, and might have predicted Scouts would overtake them in less than a week, regardless of the championship format.

 

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24 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

But all you're really saying with this is that where a corps is seeded, as you describe it, doesn't mean as much as head-to-head scoring.

In that regard, Scouts went:

--from 3.1 points behind SCV on Aug. 2,

--to 1.8 points behind SCV on Aug. 4 and Aug. 6,

--to 0.4 points behind SCV on Aug. 13,

--to 1.4 points ahead of SCV at Semifinals on Aug. 19.

During that time, nobody else beat SCV until Semifinals, where they were also 0.3 points behind BD.

(Actually, it looks like SCV had not beaten BD at all during the season until they finally overtook them at Finals. Is that right? If so, I'm surprised we don't hear more complaints from BD fans that they didn't win that year.)

So the careful observer would have seen that Madison was making great strides against SCV, and might have predicted Scouts would overtake them in less than a week, regardless of the championship format.

 

But we are not talking them overtaking just SCV at the last moment, but also Cadets, BD, and Star; all of which they had never beaten the entire season, and overtaking The Cavaliers and Regiment, two corps that they had only bested once weeks earlier back in July after they returned to DCI competition on 7/9. That still makes them a 7th to 1st Jump in just the Semis. That type of thing happens on occasion in objective scoring sports with an upset, but in subjective competitions like DCI, Olympic Ice Dancing, Cheerleading, etc... that is a huge aborition boardering on downright unbelievability.

Edited by Stu
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