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19 hours ago, Stu said:

Cobham, Gadd, etc.. have corps experience and that is why I chose Beauford, Katche, and Shelia E. as my examples. Their non-corps professional musical experience and perspective are just as musically valid as Prosperie and Davila, but because they view drumming, time, rhythm, etc in a vastly different artistic mind-set they would be deemed incompetent to judge DCI by many within the marching realm because what they see as great rhythmic art is different than what academic/marching drummers see as great rhythmic art. That is why I countered Jeff when he claimed Prosperie and Davila are from a different mind-set mold when in fact they are way more alike than unlike (see their background experiences I posted earlier). And DCI wants like-minded judges for consistency sake; and that is fine. But an unintended yet real consequence of that is the general slotting which does occur each season in DCI.

 

Being an amazingly talented musician in any genre does not translate automatically into being able to rank and rate DCI ensembles on whatever caption they are evaluating.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MikeD said:

Being an amazingly talented musician in any genre does not translate automatically into being able to rank and rate DCI ensembles on whatever caption they are evaluating.

 

 

So.... Wynton would only be deemed competent to adjudicate brass as long as he ranks and rates the ensembles in the same order as the current crop of DCI brass judges. Now that is funny right there!!! And it says quite a lot about the insular secterian mind-set which permiates many views within DCI.

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16 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

a few years ago, someone came out early throwing out 18's in percussion. the world revolted...even hop asked to cut the guy a break.

 

some days crazy #### happens. Look at the back and forth in guard last year. GE most years. if the hive mindset you allude to being in place really was, you'd have the top corps winning every sheet. it just doesnt happen now.

Or the reaction you describe above is a symptom of a hive mindset?

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7 hours ago, Stu said:

So.... Wynton would only be deemed competent to adjudicate brass as long as he ranks and rates the ensembles in the same order as the current crop of DCI brass judges. Now that is funny right there!!! And it says quite a lot about the insular secterian mind-set which permiates many views within DCI.

Where did I say that? Being an amazing performer and being able to look at a group of ensembles and give them a worthwhile evaluation are not the same skillsets.

In drum corps terms, add to the mix the different types of shows being presented and it greatly increases the difficulty for someone to just walk in and be expected to give a fair and accurate evaluation of the groups.

Add to that the written criteria for judging the captions that has been created by the member corps, and IMO it becomes an impossible task for a virtuoso performer with no background in DCI and/or evaluating other groups in general to accomplish. 

Wynton Marsalis, given his work with students, as well as his performances in a variety of ensembles from jazz to classical, might actually come close to being able to judge brass in DCI. However, why do you think he would automatically see things different than the DCI judges do today, if using the same criteria for performance? This past season the top 4 brass lines, score-wise, were Crown, BD, SCV and Bluecoats. How different do you think he would place them in brass performance? You really think he would take the 12th place Scouts brass and place them in the top 3 or 4? Do you believe that Crown does not deserve to be 1st in brass, with BD close at their heels?

 

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9 hours ago, Stu said:

So.... Wynton would only be deemed competent to adjudicate brass as long as he ranks and rates the ensembles in the same order as the current crop of DCI brass judges. Now that is funny right there!!! And it says quite a lot about the insular secterian mind-set which permiates many views within DCI.

his feedback i am sure would be incredible.i know of a few judges that give incredible tapes, and couldn't manage numbers to save their life. Judging is an artform of it's own.......you have to rank, rate, and give good feedback, and in a situation where you have to have a critique, you have to be able to explain why your ranking and rating was what it was, as well as offer constructive feedback on how to improve without getting caught up in the "but you gave so and so...." or "what do we do to catch....".

 

I don't judge on a national level, but it ain't easy and i work at it all year. I scrounge for old tapes to gain insights, i ask questions of legends and folks doing it now, and not just those working the sheets I do. Just being a great musician alone doesn't mean you can be a great judge.

 

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2 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Or the reaction you describe above is a symptom of a hive mindset?

oh i think there's a segment of the fan base that expects everything to follow a certain order, and some of that segment is the segment of homers whofeel no matter what their team gets, it's not good enough due to politics.

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9 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

... I know of a few judges that give incredible tapes, and couldn't manage numbers to save their life. Judging is an artform of it's own.......you have to rank, rate, and give good feedback, and in a situation where you have to have a critique, you have to be able to explain why your ranking and rating was what it was, as well as offer constructive feedback on how to improve without getting caught up in the "but you gave so and so...." or "what do we do to catch....".

See bold; which inevitably results in various types of slotting over the course of the season using a small rotation of judges who are intimately familiar with every corps over many seasons. A conundrum created when there is a conflict of saying each corps is to be strictly evaluated based on the sheet criteria yet also added to that is another subjective evaluation that this corps has to be ranked, without a tie, along with 31 other corps by those who know a lot about DCI historical rankings. Thus, by the third week each season, general slotting occurs; it is an unintended consequence but it is inevitable. And that is why if a competent professional who was provided the sheets for study but knew nothing of the the corps and their past scores and rankings over the years (and that's the key) came in as as guest judge for finals, their independent opinion would really upset the apple cart.

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14 hours ago, Stu said:

See bold; which inevitably results in various types of slotting over the course of the season using a small rotation of judges who are intimately familiar with every corps over many seasons. A conundrum created when there is a conflict of saying each corps is to be strictly evaluated based on the sheet criteria yet also added to that is another subjective evaluation that this corps has to be ranked, without a tie, along with 31 other corps by those who know a lot about DCI historical rankings. Thus, by the third week each season, general slotting occurs; it is an unintended consequence but it is inevitable. And that is why if a competent professional who was provided the sheets for study but knew nothing of the the corps and their past scores and rankings over the years (and that's the key) came in as as guest judge for finals, their independent opinion would really upset the apple cart.

actually not being able to manage numbers doesnt lead to slotting in many cases. I'd say 50% of the time it can create chaos by totally throwing the rankings out of whack. That small rotation of judges has expanded a lot. some only worked 3-5 shows all season. Some worked more. A large majority of the roster is certified to do 2 or more sheets.....so just because they see a corps 4 times, it doesnt mean it was always on the same sheet. 

 

and honestly, if someone came in, studied the sheets as you say and didnt know a thing about a corps past....I doubt you'd see a major change. the criteria on the sheets is the criteria on the sheets. 

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23 hours ago, MikeD said:

Where did I say that? Being an amazing performer and being able to look at a group of ensembles and give them a worthwhile evaluation are not the same skillsets.

In drum corps terms, add to the mix the different types of shows being presented and it greatly increases the difficulty for someone to just walk in and be expected to give a fair and accurate evaluation of the groups.

Add to that the written criteria for judging the captions that has been created by the member corps, and IMO it becomes an impossible task for a virtuoso performer with no background in DCI and/or evaluating other groups in general to accomplish. 

I was in total agreement with you about evaluating and performing being different skill sets.  But fresh input from people with that skill set would be priceless.

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