F15_22 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, cowtown said: Won’t anyone think of the children who have roundly rejected it along with the audience? Haha ... people keep speaking in generalities and using terms like “all fans” or “the audience.” Please speak for yourself. From my seat at finals (100 series seats) I saw thousands of fans on their feet cheering all night. Fans of all ages. There also seems to be no shortage of “children” trying out for these corps. The young men and women I know in the activity enjoy being part of organizations that regularly push creative limits and explore new technology ... and they don’t prefer to be referred to as children. I enjoyed the Flo video and thought they did a great job articulating their position. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 3 hours ago, cowtown said: I had watched that Flo marching thing with Mr. Failed Professional Bluecoats Sound Designer that once again made the empty promise of ‘we’ll do better’ so of course I was annoyed. When? I’ve been hearing ‘we’ll do better’ with electronic since 2005. How will you do better, how will all corps do better? How will it be enforced? If they don’t do better what the other side? My objection to amps has nothing to do with them not being utilized when I marched; it has everything to do with how poorly they have been used and by the idiom. I like live brass. To dismiss my views on electronics as a product of my age is so disingenuous, insulting, bigoted and just wrong. But that’s the level dude is working on and yet, he’s in charge of the future of DCI? Good hands there folks. I snipped sections out to save space here. Whether I agree or disagree with anything you have posted here.. this is, without question, one of the best rants I've ever seen anywhere!!!! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 12 hours ago, F15_22 said: Haha ... people keep speaking in generalities and using terms like “all fans” or “the audience.” Please speak for yourself. From my seat at finals (100 series seats) I saw thousands of fans on their feet cheering all night. Fans of all ages. There also seems to be no shortage of “children” trying out for these corps. The young men and women I know in the activity enjoy being part of organizations that regularly push creative limits and explore new technology ... and they don’t prefer to be referred to as children. I enjoyed the Flo video and thought they did a great job articulating their position. You tell cowtown to speak only for himself... and then, in the very next sentence, you speak on behalf of thousands of fans? What makes you so special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 20 minutes ago, cixelsyd said: You tell cowtown to speak only for himself... and then, in the very next sentence, you speak on behalf of thousands of fans? What makes you so special? Except he is not speaking for thousands of fans.He is making factual observations on what he actually saw. "I saw thousands of fans on their feet cheering all night. Fans of all ages.". He did not make any note of their likes or dislikes on any single element, such as electronics. Just that they were on their feet cheering. Further he stated what is apparent from reading reports of audition camps...."There also seems to be no shortage of “children” trying out for these corps". Again, just stating that that there are lots of people trying out for the corps, so they must want to participate in an activity that has plugged in. Again, not trying to speak for them on what they think on this one topic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 14 hours ago, cowtown said: I had watched that Flo marching thing with Mr. Failed Professional Bluecoats Sound Designer that once again made the empty promise of ‘we’ll do better’ so of course I was annoyed. When? I’ve been hearing ‘we’ll do better’ with electronic since 2005. I have heard it since the 1970s, when amplification began in marching band. Quote How will you do better, how will all corps do better? How will it be enforced? If they don’t do better what the other side? It was such a one sided sales job that was based upon lies upon excuses upon arrogant, patronizing posturing and the mea culpa did nothing to assuage my utter disappointment with ‘the production’ they offered by way of poorly utilized and implemented electronics. DCI is incapable of enforcing their own rules or standards so we get these ‘hack’ designers corrupting the entire activity so they can get a paycheck and be relevant in their drum corps Hamlet syndrome. There is no enforcement. For all 14 years of A&E in DCI, there never have been any consequences for its failures, no matter how devastating their effects on the shows. (Well, there was one consequence - some fans were driven away from the activity. But the loss was not a large enough percentage to derail DCI, and those of us who remain appear willing to endure A&E abuses and pay for the privilege.) However, Hamlet syndrome is not the explanation behind it all. Consider this: Quote Amplified brass will never sound as good as ‘live’ brass. Absolutely. Yet, corps are clearly receiving encouragement from the judges to substitute more and more amplified brass for live brass. There is no such thing as an unamplified solo anymore. And in 2017, corps began amplifying the whole field ensemble, to the near unanimous displeasure of fans. Reaction to that was so negative that even George Hopkins agreed that we had gone too far. Yet, the expected rules adjustment did not come to pass. Why not? The activity is now driven by a clique of music education professionals and the equipment manufacturers who market to them (or pay them for product endorsements). When you observe how many designers (and more importantly, judges) are receiving $$$ from manufacturers, you can begin to understand why they campaign in favor of whatever those companies are selling. And face it - when you hear comments like you refer to... Quote My objection to amps has nothing to do with them not being utilized when I marched; it has everything to do with how poorly they have been used and by the idiom. I like live brass. To dismiss my views on electronics as a product of my age is so disingenuous, insulting, bigoted and just wrong. But that’s the level dude is working on and yet, he’s in charge of the future of DCI? Good hands there folks. ... that is campaigning, as ugly as in the political realm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 28 minutes ago, MikeD said: Except he is not speaking for thousands of fans.He is making factual observations on what he actually saw. "I saw thousands of fans on their feet cheering all night. Fans of all ages.". He did not make any note of their likes or dislikes on any single element, such as electronics. Just that they were on their feet cheering. Further he stated what is apparent from reading reports of audition camps...."There also seems to be no shortage of “children” trying out for these corps". Again, just stating that that there are lots of people trying out for the corps, so they must want to participate in an activity that has despite it being plugged in. Again, not trying to speak for them on what they think on this one topic. Fixed that for you. With all due sincerity - you two have applied more effort and provided more supporting detail to your generalizations so far. But in the end, they are still generalizations. Pot/kettle... no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 hours ago, cixelsyd said: Fixed that for you. With all due sincerity - you two have applied more effort and provided more supporting detail to your generalizations so far. But in the end, they are still generalizations. Pot/kettle... no. I guess we'll just disagree. Neither his post or mine are generalities pushing one POV and saying it applies to others.. They were statements of fact. What you changed it to IS a personal opinion that is a vague generality pushing your own POV. I posted ".... they must want to participate in an activity that has plugged in." . Your "correction" is not a pure piece of factual information....it is your own opinion being ascribed to other people,. I did not say everyone who participates likes electronics, but if they choose to participate they are participating in an activity that has plugged in, plain and simple. Some number may not like it and still participate as you describe, while others like what they see and hear....my statement made no distinctions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Can I mention again that Cowtown is my secret crush? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingusmonk Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 24 minutes ago, HockeyDad said: Can I mention again that Cowtown is my secret crush? Not if you want it be still be a secret. That's just not how that works. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 7 hours ago, cixelsyd said: Fixed that for you. With all due sincerity - you two have applied more effort and provided more supporting detail to your generalizations so far. But in the end, they are still generalizations. Pot/kettle... no. here i'll do a brief summarization of where DCI is since A&E first passed: from 2004 to 2010, numbers dropped...attendance, corps, kids.....economy was also an issue at the time the numbers hit rock bottom. since 2011, with a minor dip in 2012, numbers have continued to increase. Paying fans, corps, kids marching...... so something is obviously worked. in 2010 you had maybe what....11,000 people paid for finals? LOS is full on concert side now. Regionals keep posting huge numbers. DCi is doing better filling big stadiums day in and day out. web viewing is up, and theater attendance is up. if it ###### that many people off.....the numbers wouldn't be growing. I'm not a fan of everything trotted out with the changes. in fact, i'll contend SCV's reliance on the mic'd brass ensemble hurt their brass core and cost them a title.So in some ways i do think judges punish groups for it...just not enough. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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