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2018 Rules proposals


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3 hours ago, SFZFAN said:

I see George Hopkins decided against submitting his "Amplified Flatulence" proposal - at least for this year. 

the ozone just felt it needed to thicken up

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1 hour ago, Stu said:

(By the way I have high respect for Jeff and Julie); but let's test your claim that their backgrounds are so vastly different that they bring a lot of diversity to the adjudicating system: Jeff Graduated from The University of North Texas; Julie graduated from The University of North Texas; Jeff was a member of the UNT PASIC ensemble; Julie was a member of the UNT PASIC ensemble; Jeff has been associated with the PAS Marching Percussion Committee; Julie has been associated with the PAS Marching Percussion Committee; Jeff has written for, instructed, and adjudicated many High School Marching Bands; Julie has written for, instructed, and adjudicated many High School Marching Bands; Jeff was a Professor of Percussion at a University; Julie was a Professor of Percussion at a University; Jeff has written marching percussion books for Row-Loff publications; Julie has written marching percussion books for Row-Loff publications; Jeff has been associated with DCI corps prior to becoming a DCI judge; Julie has been associated with DCI corps prior to becoming a DCI judge; ..... Oh, sorry, you are correct... Jeff is with the Hellcats and Julie is with CAIXA Trio,... and that makes their backgrounds so diverse that they bring vastly different mindsets to the DCI judging table.  which brings me to the next comment:

The reason that Jeff and Julie view the sheets, and the performances, in the same way is directly related to their extremely common backgrounds (see above) combined with that is the exact way DCI wants adjudication provided from their judges.  Put Carter Beauford in there to judge, who has no background similarity to Jeff and Julie whatsoever, and his scoring-ranking results would be way different.  And although his scoring-ranking would be valid based on his professional musical background, he would be deemed incompetent by most, including you, if his 'professional and authoritative' subjective opinion varied from that of the rest of the judges (who also have similar backgrounds to Jeff and Jule and not Beauford).  So because of that, slotting, not at a strict single position, but slotting in a very small ranking range is inevitable because cookie-cutter artistic views and evaluations is what DCI wants from their adjudicators; that does bring consistency, but it also brings slotting.

You called me an A**; that is personal. I do not mind the sarcastic humor, the sarcasm of say linking to an Ernest Save Christmas video clip to counter a point in which you disagree, but when you call someone an A**, that is "extremely personal". Oh, and thanks for the apology!

ah yes i am well aware of their resumes. that doesnt mean they have a Force mind meld ala Kylo Ren and Rey. If you've ever heard their tapes, you'd know there's differences...and thats a good thing!

 

And if you have ever heard their tapes, you'd know they don't view the sheets the same way. Again, having asked a lot of questions to people who have judged for years and also those who recently went through the training process, in the broad strokes you seem to think they're told how to judge....just don't exist. 

 

and as a guy who Jeff and Julie as my double panel on the same sheet....yeah the results differed. I got over being mad at Julie after a few listens....she was spot on, but just wasn't as generous as Jeff in the top box as I would have liked. Learned a lot from both tapes too. Or was it mp3's then...I can't remember. LOL I know it wasn't competition suite yet.

 

oh and you're welcome. 

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On 12/17/2017 at 11:52 AM, flugelswerebugels said:

 

As for the idea of objective scoring, and comparing drum corps to competitive sports, can you show me where drum corps play defense? Unlike competitive sports, drum corps can have no effect on the performance of their competitors. Hence, we're left with a subjective scoring system, just like ice skating and gymnastics. 

I suppose watering down a part to make it easier to clean could be considered defense.  Probably more applicable in the tick era 

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5 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

ah yes i am well aware of their resumes. that doesnt mean they have a Force mind meld ala Kylo Ren and Rey. If you've ever heard their tapes, you'd know there's differences...and thats a good thing!

 

And if you have ever heard their tapes, you'd know they don't view the sheets the same way. Again, having asked a lot of questions to people who have judged for years and also those who recently went through the training process, in the broad strokes you seem to think they're told how to judge....just don't exist. 

 

and as a guy who Jeff and Julie as my double panel on the same sheet....yeah the results differed. I got over being mad at Julie after a few listens....she was spot on, but just wasn't as generous as Jeff in the top box as I would have liked. Learned a lot from both tapes too. Or was it mp3's then...I can't remember. LOL I know it wasn't competition suite yet.

 

oh and you're welcome. 

Yes I have heard 'DCI' adjudication recordings from both. They may structure their comments differently, but they end up scoring and ranking DCI units extremely close to each other's scores and ranks. If they were on a DCI split panel, judging the exact same caption, with Jeff placing SCV first and Julie placing them second with a 0.1 point difference, DCI would say that is fine. But if Jeff placed SCV in first with viable reasoning and Julie placed them fifth about a point behind also with viable reasoning, one if them would get canned. But that would not happen due to their extremely similar backgrounds, experiences, and musical value sets. Not only is adjudicating subjective, but varaition of subjectivity is minimalized by securing judges with similar backgrounds like Jeff and Julie not disimilar backgrounds like Jeff and Shelia E. Oh, and no personal attack from you this time; keep refraining from the personal and things will be fine.

Edited by Stu
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21 minutes ago, Stu said:

Yes I have heard 'DCI' adjudication recordings from both. They may structure their comments differently, but they end up scoring and ranking DCI units extremely close to each other's scores and ranks. If they were on a DCI split panel, judging the exact same caption, with Jeff placing SCV first and Julie placing them second with a 0.1 point difference, DCI would say that is fine. But if Jeff placed SCV in first with viable reasoning and Julie placed them fifth about a point behind also with viable reasoning, one if them would get canned. But that would not happen due to their extremely similar backgrounds, experiences, and musical value sets. Not only is adjudicating subjective, but varaition of subjectivity is minimalized by securing judges with similar backgrounds like Jeff and Julie not disimilar backgrounds like Jeff and Shelia E. Oh, and no personal attack from you this time; keep refraining from the personal and things will be fine.

I hear you about having folks from outside the activity having a different perspective, when it comes to judging a drum corps show... but I figure even if, say, Wynton Marsalis or Billy Cobham, two world-class musicians, wanted to judge drum corps brass, percussion, or music,  they would have to be "trained" per se... meaning they would have to learn the criteria that DCI has set for its judges, and then do their best to adhere to such criteria. They couldn't just throw out numbers... even though, I gotta be honest, I would love to see their numbers, and hear their comments/insight.

Between the two guys I mentioned, I'm guessing Billy Cobham might have a leg up here, since he's a drum corps alum... from back in the day, true.... but he's kept in touch with some folks involved today. 

Edited by Fran Haring
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10 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

I hear you about having folks from outside the activity having a different perspective, when it comes to judging a drum corps show... but I figure even if, say, Wynton Marsalis or Billy Cobham, two world-class musicians, wanted to judge drum corps brass, percussion, or music,  they would have to be "trained" per se... meaning they would have to learn the criteria that DCI has set for its judges, and then do their best to adhere to such criteria. They couldn't just throw out numbers... even though, I gotta be honest, I would love to see their numbers, and hear their comments/insight.

Between the two guys I mentioned, I'm guessing Billy Cobham might have a leg up here, since he's a drum corps alum... from back in the day, true.... but he's kept in touch with some folks involved today. 

Cobham, Gadd, etc.. have corps experience and that is why I chose Beauford, Katche, and Shelia E. as my examples. Their non-corps professional musical experience and perspective are just as musically valid as Prosperie and Davila, but because they view drumming, time, rhythm, etc in a vastly different artistic mind-set they would be deemed incompetent to judge DCI by many within the marching realm because what they see as great rhythmic art is different than what academic/marching drummers see as great rhythmic art. That is why I countered Jeff when he claimed Prosperie and Davila are from a different mind-set mold when in fact they are way more alike than unlike (see their background experiences I posted earlier). And DCI wants like-minded judges for consistency sake; and that is fine. But an unintended yet real consequence of that is the general slotting which does occur each season in DCI.

Footnote. Gadd slurs the heck out of the Crazy Army cadence he used to open Legend of a One-Eyed Sailor; it lays back so far it takes you back to last Sunday. Compare that to the way BD just recently played it; not only as a tribute to their own past but also a tribute to him. If Gadd was judging (a groove he made famous mind you), even though he went to Eastman, even though he has drum corps experience, if he whacked the BD clinically strict non-slured style and application of that cadence he would be deemed an incompetent judge!!! That is what I am getting at!!!

Edited by Stu
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16 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

I suppose watering down a part to make it easier to clean could be considered defense.  Probably more applicable in the tick era 

ah yes the old prevent defense.

 

otherwise known as "hey remember that part you USED to play there?"

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15 hours ago, Stu said:

Yes I have heard 'DCI' adjudication recordings from both. They may structure their comments differently, but they end up scoring and ranking DCI units extremely close to each other's scores and ranks. If they were on a DCI split panel, judging the exact same caption, with Jeff placing SCV first and Julie placing them second with a 0.1 point difference, DCI would say that is fine. But if Jeff placed SCV in first with viable reasoning and Julie placed them fifth about a point behind also with viable reasoning, one if them would get canned. But that would not happen due to their extremely similar backgrounds, experiences, and musical value sets. Not only is adjudicating subjective, but varaition of subjectivity is minimalized by securing judges with similar backgrounds like Jeff and Julie not disimilar backgrounds like Jeff and Shelia E. Oh, and no personal attack from you this time; keep refraining from the personal and things will be fine.

it actually wouldn't happen because in percussion SCV is annually that ###### good. But even know you see differences between upstairs and downstairs. kills your hive mindset theory yet again.

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11 hours ago, Stu said:

Cobham, Gadd, etc.. have corps experience and that is why I chose Beauford, Katche, and Shelia E. as my examples. Their non-corps professional musical experience and perspective are just as musically valid as Prosperie and Davila, but because they view drumming, time, rhythm, etc in a vastly different artistic mind-set they would be deemed incompetent to judge DCI by many within the marching realm because what they see as great rhythmic art is different than what academic/marching drummers see as great rhythmic art. That is why I countered Jeff when he claimed Prosperie and Davila are from a different mind-set mold when in fact they are way more alike than unlike (see their background experiences I posted earlier). And DCI wants like-minded judges for consistency sake; and that is fine. But an unintended yet real consequence of that is the general slotting which does occur each season in DCI.

Footnote. Gadd slurs the heck out of the Crazy Army cadence he used to open Legend of a One-Eyed Sailor; it lays back so far it takes you back to last Sunday. Compare that to the way BD just recently played it; not only as a tribute to their own past but also a tribute to him. If Gadd was judging (a groove he made famous mind you), even though he went to Eastman, even though he has drum corps experience, if he whacked the BD clinically strict non-slured style and application of that cadence he would be deemed an incompetent judge!!! That is what I am getting at!!!

a few years ago, someone came out early throwing out 18's in percussion. the world revolted...even hop asked to cut the guy a break.

 

some days crazy #### happens. Look at the back and forth in guard last year. GE most years. if the hive mindset you allude to being in place really was, you'd have the top corps winning every sheet. it just doesnt happen now.

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