In The News – Amid Sexual-Misconduct Scandal, A New Code Of Conduct For Drum Corps

[N.E. Brigand]

8 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Example - "toxic masculinity". What does that mean to you? 

And to take it down a notch from mass murder, I think that, sticking just to some of the most notorious and/or egregious cases (most of which that emerged over the past nine months and which I largely pull from the much, much longer list on this Wikipedia page), that "toxic masculinity" was been seen in the actions alleged and/or admitted to have been taken by Bill Clinton, John Conyers, Bill Cosby, Blake Farenthold, Al Franken, Trent Franks, Eric Greitens, Mark Halperin, Garrison Keillor, Matt Lauer, James Levine, Roy Moore, Larry Nassar, Roman Polanski, Brett Ratner, Charlie Rose, Eric Schneiderman, Tavis Smiley, Glenn Thrush, James Toback, Donald Trump, and Harvey Weinstein.

What is "toxic masculinity"? It's the misuse of the masculine. It's men who think they are entitled to women and behave accordingly, whether that means groping them, or raping them, or punishing them for refusing to sleep with them, or, at the final extreme, murdering them.

(Femininity can also turn toxic, I'm sure, but so far, that's a much less common thing.)

[BigW]

10 hours ago, GUARDLING said:

not to get sucked into it again BUT what does DCI have to do with it.. They don't hire for corps, bands, guards percussion..Again I will say many women are to smart 

If they can find a female crazy enough to take the head job at the DCI office maybe that would be a good idea. In any job, the most qualified should get the job not to boost percentages.

Heard that elsewhere about Women being too smart/sane/grounded/sensible to run a corps. On one hand I grin at the humor, but my serious side also looks at Fusion and White Sabres and their success, and I think to myself, YES! there should be more talented and capable women doing this for every good reason anyone can think of. I sincerely hope there will be some more before I kick the bucket!

 

I agree that the most qualified person should get any job. But... I think there are more Women out there that could and should be Visual, brass, or percussion caption heads, and Corps Directors or Assistant Directors. Are they getting interviews, or even thought of as viable choices?  Maybe something is needed in the spirit and vein of the Rooney rule. Maybe initiatives similar to NASCAR where teams have been encouraged, not forced, to find and develop new talent in positions where there have been few, if any women in those positions. It's been bearing fruit there. The Rooney rule has seen some change, not as much or as fast as many would like, but the evolution is happening. I agree forcing is a bad idea. Actively Encouraging and Developing, maybe it's time and part of the overall solution to do that.

[HockeyDad]

10 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

 

 

And those are just the lowest-hanging fruit: three self-identified "incels" who explicitly linked their heinous acts to their fury that women were denying them the sex they felt they "deserved", plus, most topically, someone whose first victim allegedly was a girl who turned down his advances in public.

But the vast majority of mass murderers have a history of domestic violence. It's possibly the most common warning sign.

Deleted. Too far off topic. Sorry MikeD. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by HockeyDad

[MikeD]

Please keep the thread related to the topic of drum corps and the new policy. The thread is wandering far afield right now into decidedly non-drum corps areas. 

Thanks.

[cixelsyd]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:35 PM, N.E. Brigand said:

But how many corps directors are women? If that number is less than 40%, as I believe it is, that suggests there has been some historical bias in the activity, albeit one that is non-explicit and for the most part not consciously intended, that assumes women just can't hack it, which manifests in discouraging them from ever getting on a leadership track.

Well, since the number is more like 5%, for an activity with way more than 5% female participation for decades now, that is curious.  Your suggested conclusion, however, is just one of several possible explanations.

On 5/19/2018 at 9:16 PM, N.E. Brigand said:

A lack of (approximately) equal outcome does in fact mean that opportunity was never equal. 

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your logic in this context. 

What you are saying is that if females make up less than 40% of any given career, it can ONLY be systemic bias?  No chance that women exercise free will and judgment of their own in making life choices?  If less than 40% of professional kickboxers, drug gang mercenaries, or presidential candidates are women, does that prove systemic bias against women, or superior intelligence among women?

Have you spoken to actual, real-life women about this, and listened to their insights?

[MotoSurfBass]

19 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Now JimF, be fair. You know I said nothing about the metoo movement. Go back and read my post if you can bear to, as you seem to think it was so horrible. I said, there's been a war on men and boys going on for a very long time. I'm talking decades. I say this as a father of girls (that's plural) AND boys (that's also plural). I've experienced it first hand and will just throw a few things out here so this doesn't get long and preachy:  example - the movement to medicate boys with Ritalin for ADD or ADHD etc., whether real or perceived. Pressured by the schools. Boys are too out of control. Example - "toxic masculinity". What does that mean to you JimF?  Do you think masculinity is toxic?  Bad?  Is gender a social construct?  Is masculine nature something to be eradicated?  Example - "mansplaining". The height of bigotry. Men's thoughts are to be dismissed and belittled, because, well I guess because they're men. What hate. So, JimF, that's where I'm coming from. A place where one of my daughters with a lower ACT gets in the college that one of my sons with a higher ACT did not, where both attended the same high school and had very similar backgrounds. That's my reality. I'm sure in the spirit of inclusion you will validate it.  You will never build someone up by tearing someone else down. That doesn't work. And when I say "you" I'm speaking society in general not you specifically JimF. 

I won't get into an argument on here since I know it's political in nature, but assuming that the masculinity itself is the toxic part of "toxic masculinity" shows a huge lack of understanding of the concept. Masculinity and maleness is not the enemy in this discussion... it's society's demand and enforcement of these traits on young men and boys and it's callousness that it expresses towards those that don't conform to them that is toxic.

And this post is chock full of that ####.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see the cleanup on this page before I posted this. Delete this post or take it to my PMs if that works better.

Edited May 21, 2018 by MotoSurfBass

[JimF-LowBari]

3 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Deleted. Too far off topic. Sorry MikeD. 

At least you got a sorry lol...

[xandandl]

10 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:

And to take it down a notch from mass murder, I think that, sticking just to some of the most notorious and/or egregious cases (most of which that emerged over the past nine months and which I largely pull from the much, much longer list on this Wikipedia page), that "toxic masculinity" was been seen in the actions alleged and/or admitted to have been taken by Bill Clinton, John Conyers, Bill Cosby, Blake Farenthold, Al Franken, Trent Franks, Eric Greitens, Mark Halperin, Garrison Keillor, Matt Lauer, James Levine, Roy Moore, Larry Nassar, Roman Polanski, Brett Ratner, Charlie Rose, Eric Schneiderman, Tavis Smiley, Glenn Thrush, James Toback, Donald Trump, and Harvey Weinstein.

What is "toxic masculinity"? It's the misuse of the masculine. It's men who think they are entitled to women and behave accordingly, whether that means groping them, or raping them, or punishing them for refusing to sleep with them, or, at the final extreme, murdering them.

(Femininity can also turn toxic, I'm sure, but so far, that's a much less common thing.)

Maybe DCP isn't the ripe place to discuss this at this moment. 

It seems none of the DCP admins. or mods are female (unless Toby is a girl's name here.)  Pot can't call the kettle black... 

[GUARDLING]

5 hours ago, BigW said:

Heard that elsewhere about Women being too smart/sane/grounded/sensible to run a corps. On one hand I grin at the humor, but my serious side also looks at Fusion and White Sabres and their success, and I think to myself, YES! there should be more talented and capable women doing this for every good reason anyone can think of. I sincerely hope there will be some more before I kick the bucket!

 

I agree that the most qualified person should get any job. But... I think there are more Women out there that could and should be Visual, brass, or percussion caption heads, and Corps Directors or Assistant Directors. Are they getting interviews, or even thought of as viable choices?  Maybe something is needed in the spirit and vein of the Rooney rule. Maybe initiatives similar to NASCAR where teams have been encouraged, not forced, to find and develop new talent in positions where there have been few, if any women in those positions. It's been bearing fruit there. The Rooney rule has seen some change, not as much or as fast as many would like, but the evolution is happening. I agree forcing is a bad idea. Actively Encouraging and Developing, maybe it's time and part of the overall solution to do that.

2

Without a doubt, there are women out there very qualified to do any job in our activity ( always have been ) As I have said . I myself have encouraged many women in the past and a few have taken on the challenge and flourished. Some stayed many went after a while for numerous reasons.

Subject drifting again, If you want to continue conversation PM me.

Edited May 21, 2018 by GUARDLING

[MikeD]

28 minutes ago, xandandl said:

Maybe DCP isn't the ripe place to discuss this at this moment. 

It seems none of the DCP admins. or mods are female (unless Toby is a girl's name here.)  Pot can't call the kettle black... 

The topic is a valid one to discuss in terms of drum corps and how it relates. A few posts wandering away from that are probably not going to get a thread shut down, especially if they provide context. But when post after post goes far afield from drum corps, that is when a thread is apt to get closed. That has been the policy of DCP since it started.