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Madison Scouts survey: all male v.s. Co ed


Madison Scouts survey  

212 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Madison Scouts remain all male or go Co ed?

    • Remain all male
      141
    • Go Co ed
      71


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4 hours ago, seen-it-all said:

It depends on whether or not the tradition is still relevant and not something that could possibly be hindering growth or even survival.

Tradition is always relevant to an organization, sort of know thyself.  I don't see Madison's survival at stake.  Hindering growth, perhaps.

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1 hour ago, Cadevilina Crown said:

Yep.

Also, I think it's interesting that I don’t recall Madison (or any corps for that matter) responding to this article in any way, while almost every corps issued some sort of statement and/or took action after the Hopkins news broke. 

Forward Performing Arts had taken action on this issue before publication of the article.  Facebook post from October 26, 2017:

Over the past few years, the Madison Scouts have received an increasing number of membership inquiries from transgender people interested in joining the corps. In the absence of any formal policy, we have cited sexual assignment at birth as the eligibility standard and helped students who did not meet that criteria find a suitable option with other drum corps. Accordingly, in September, I asked the Forward Performing Arts Board of Directors to consider this issue, and a committee was formed to examine this matter more closely.

At the October 16th board meeting, the committee presented a recommendation to the board to amend its existing eligibility policy to include transgender males beginning in 2018. The board unanimously approved the recommendation and has been working with the National Center for Transgender Equality over the past two weeks to draft a policy with appropriate language. Eligibility for the 2018 Madison Scouts will be based on the gender identity indicated by the applicant, including transgender males.

Since its beginning in 1938, the Madison Scouts has a long and commendable history of diversity and inclusion. For 80 years, the corps has been racially integrated and was led by an African-American drum major its inaugural year. Originally started as a Boy Scout Troop, the organization was all-male by regulation. Over time, the corps has evolved within the activity and within society to serve a diverse membership, with different races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and economic backgrounds. These differences have helped make the Madison Scouts what it is today—a place where a young person can explore their world via performance.

The Madison Scouts is no longer associated with the Boys Scouts of America, but has chosen to maintain its “all-male” membership requirement, not in an effort to circumvent gender equality, but rather to create an environment where young men are taught the characteristic standards of being a better man without mixed-sex influences. We believe that we provide a unique and experiential offering based on the all-male environment that is unique within the pageantry world, where other co-ed opportunities exist.

The Madison Scouts will continue to provide an educational environment where our membership develops life skills that will serve them effectively in their adult lives. We do so by creating an environment of both adversity and diversity, a place and an activity where one can push themselves beyond what they currently understand. We will continue to explore our changing world and adapt in the most appropriate means necessary to serve this mission.

Chris Komnick - Executive Director
Gregg Auby - President, Board of Directors

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3 hours ago, Cadevilina Crown said:

Wasn’t there an article a year ago about a transgender MM who wanted to march Madison but couldn’t because the organization wouldn’t allow it?

EDIT: I found it in case anyone wants to read it again. https://medium.com/@chadwickmichael/bias-in-the-brotherhood-ee75dead4a6d

Interesting that the next-to- last paragraph of the story says that ultimately Madison intends to "remove all gender barriers to entry"

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1 hour ago, msesq said:

 

Forward Performing Arts had taken action on this issue before publication of the article.  Facebook post from October 26, 2017:

Over the past few years, the Madison Scouts have received an increasing number of membership inquiries from transgender people interested in joining the corps. In the absence of any formal policy, we have cited sexual assignment at birth as the eligibility standard and helped students who did not meet that criteria find a suitable option with other drum corps. Accordingly, in September, I asked the Forward Performing Arts Board of Directors to consider this issue, and a committee was formed to examine this matter more closely.

At the October 16th board meeting, the committee presented a recommendation to the board to amend its existing eligibility policy to include transgender males beginning in 2018. The board unanimously approved the recommendation and has been working with the National Center for Transgender Equality over the past two weeks to draft a policy with appropriate language. Eligibility for the 2018 Madison Scouts will be based on the gender identity indicated by the applicant, including transgender males.

Since its beginning in 1938, the Madison Scouts has a long and commendable history of diversity and inclusion. For 80 years, the corps has been racially integrated and was led by an African-American drum major its inaugural year. Originally started as a Boy Scout Troop, the organization was all-male by regulation. Over time, the corps has evolved within the activity and within society to serve a diverse membership, with different races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and economic backgrounds. These differences have helped make the Madison Scouts what it is today—a place where a young person can explore their world via performance.

The Madison Scouts is no longer associated with the Boys Scouts of America, but has chosen to maintain its “all-male” membership requirement, not in an effort to circumvent gender equality, but rather to create an environment where young men are taught the characteristic standards of being a better man without mixed-sex influences. We believe that we provide a unique and experiential offering based on the all-male environment that is unique within the pageantry world, where other co-ed opportunities exist.

The Madison Scouts will continue to provide an educational environment where our membership develops life skills that will serve them effectively in their adult lives. We do so by creating an environment of both adversity and diversity, a place and an activity where one can push themselves beyond what they currently understand. We will continue to explore our changing world and adapt in the most appropriate means necessary to serve this mission.

Chris Komnick - Executive Director
Gregg Auby - President, Board of Directors

Thanks for bringing that statement up. Like I said, I wasn’t aware of any corps publishing any sort of statement about the article.

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2 minutes ago, MikeD said:

The corps should do what those who make the decisions feel is best for the organization.

 

 

Boom!!!!

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7 hours ago, MikeN said:

...Recruiting struggles due to all-male status, especially in guard, were very much front and center in their discussions for literally years.

Mike

Much of this had to do with M.S.'s approach to guard and who they hired as faculty for this. Occasionally a name head designer-instructor but not often.

Compare this to the Cavaliers who since their WGI winning legacy have never struggled to find a full and talented guard.

As other corps (Cadets, Phantom, SCV, BD, BAC, Crown, Bloo) went to co-ed guards, Madison has struggled in this caption. 

With the arrival of Jim Mason and team and under the leadership of Chris K., much of Mad's guard culture had to change (initiations, off field activities, etc.)  3 different talented cg members I had sponsored for Mad's guard left in the years prior to Mason due to these problems and found homes in other and higher placing corps where they were much happier and better utilized.

Edited by xandandl
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Another aspect that no one has mentioned. How much does the design of the show depend upon the "maleness" or "femaleness" of the performers? When the Scouts performed Alice in Wonderland and Carmen they brought in a performer specifically to exhibit that "femaleness". There have been several shows over the past few years in which the Cavaliers design team required a "male" persona from the performers. We are getting to the point in this activity where the designers are creating very specific roles that are required to be filled by performers with very specific characteristics, not unlike a movie or Broadway play.  Could you imagine Robert De Niro filling a sex discrimination suit because he wasn't considered for the title role in Wonder Women? My point being, let the design team dictate the characteristics of the performers. 

Edited by DAvery
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1 hour ago, DAvery said:

Another aspect that no one has mentioned. How much does the design of the show depend upon the "maleness" or "femaleness" of the performers? When the Scouts performed Alice in Wonderland and Carmen they brought in a performer specifically to exhibit that "femaleness". There have been several shows over the past few years in which the Cavaliers design team required a "male" persona from the performers. We are getting to the point in this activity where the designers are creating very specific roles that are required to be filled by performers with very specific characteristics, not unlike a movie or Broadway play.  Could you imagine Robert De Niro filling a sex discrimination suit because he wasn't considered for the title role in Wonder Women? My point being, let the design team dictate the characteristics of the performers. 

Right....but as a few other posters have mentioned in this thread, Gen Zers have truly thrown traditional notions of masculinity, feminity, gender roles, and gender itself out the window. Honestly, that ship has sailed. I imagine the vast majority of Gen Z kids would have classified the Scouts’ show last year as aggressive, tribal, primitive, and raw, as opposed to masculine or testosterone-heavy. Not a single lady in that generation would have had trouble getting deep into that role. Same with Cavies last year —- if anyone thinks the female performers of this generation couldn’t have easily assumed the bravado & swagger of that show and fit in seemlessly, said person really just hasn’t spent enough time working with Gen Z kids. Conversely, it’s rare to see a scholastic guard in WGI nowadays (and never, ever a world class guard in DCI) that doesn’t have male performers comfortably exploring more traditionally-feminine forms of movements and dance. Seriously, the gender role ship has sailed for this generation, and they don’t give a hoot about what’s supposed to be or isn’t supposed to be.

On a separate note, but still to the point of this thread, tradition for tradition’s sake is empty and useless. “It’s just the way we’ve always done it” has never been a valid response in any field. However, sound & logical procedures and policies take on extra strength when they are also closely-held traditions. So, I suppose Scouts need to strip away the tradition and figure out if the reason they’re holding on to an all-male membership is a solid and good policy regardless of tradition —— if they discover it is, then tradition will only strengthen the policy. If they find it has no meaning once the tradition aspect is removed, then it doesn’t serve the organization anymore and needs to go.

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