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Shootout at the BA/OK Corral (Broken Arrow, OK - July 17, 2018)


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23 minutes ago, GiveMeLibertyorGiveMeDebt said:

Because everyone's a victim these days.

Crown has a female-only brass feature this year....should the male victims, who were barred from this ensemble, cry foul?

Who is the "victim" when someone says that all-male corps should go co-ed? That seems like a victimless statement to me.

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22 minutes ago, jeffmolnar said:

Who is the "victim" when someone says that all-male corps should go co-ed? That seems like a victimless statement to me.

Should boy bands start admitting girls too? 

-the-Beatles-gifs-the-beatles-23078478-4

What about these gals? 

81PyGe1ak3L._SL1500_.jpg

 

Look, I’m in my early 20’s. I come from the generation that’s known to put a big emphasis on social issues like these. So I understand where you are coming from. However I think you are trying to find offense and inequality where this is none. The Cavies have never implied or explicitly signaled as an organization that they believe women to be inferior, untalented, or incompetent as compared to men. In fact, in their most recent shows they have been satirizing their own gender! When the principle of equality and respect is so important to you (and me!), what is the issue with the Cavaliers organization maintaining their identity of brotherhood while upholding that principle of respect? 

There are numerous other active corps who did not begin their roots as all-men or all-women organizations that would happily take all the talented female musicians out there, it is the Cavaliers’ loss! The Cavies organization has showed itself to be one of the most openly progressive drum corps out there. Unless they start going back on that, I will always support them being an all-men group.

Edited by Cappybara
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1 hour ago, Bsader said:

Ask yourself this. Why are so many working so hard to justify keeping young women out of the Cavaliers. It's not a big deal....their just women...they don't have cooties. 

 

I do not feel it necessary to ask, for I simply do not care. I tire very quickly of talking heads and their ardent disciples (aka “ilk”) that tell us what “should” or “shouldn’t” be funny or offensive. I choose what I find to be funny or offensive. For example, I find this entire Theatre of the Absurd-esque dialogue about Cavies to be quite funny. On the other hand, clubbing baby harp seals to death for their pelt is, in my view, horribly cruel and offensive. 

If any Boston Crusaders alum is reading this, that corps did an exceptional job with Animal Farm. I think Boston and a show based on Orwell’s 1984 would be another perfect fit. I’ll even contribute the show concept: the entire corps would come out and set up their equipment. They would then stroll into their opening set, which would be a clump on the front sideline. The announcer would do his thing. Then, in an homage to John Cage, the MMs would simply gaze at the audience in total silence for their allotted 13 minutes. The performers wouldn’t have to do anything, as 1984 would play out right before their eyes.  

Save us, Boston Crusaders; you’re our only hope. 

Edited by TRacer
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30 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Look, I’m in my early 20’s. I come from the generation that’s known to put a big emphasis on social issues like these. So I understand where you are coming from. However I think you are trying to find offense and inequality where this is none.

I'm not finding offense or inequality though, that's the thing. Y'all are the ones overreacting.

Cavaliers aren't evil, there's nothing wrong with them. But there's no reason for them to not start accepting women either. Their organization might not be sexist now, but the origin of the all-male tradition most certainly is. There's no reason to perpetuate that except... tradition. Not a very good reason in matters such as this.

Pop groups aren't really similar either unless said pop group if a nonprofit youth organization that holds yearly auditions. :hehe:

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8 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

The Cavaliers do discriminate on gender.  Most drumcorps discriminate on gender.  In the guard, specifically, there is often a rough quota of male/female slots that may be determined by the necessary roles needed to convey a design theme.  All theatrical and screen plays discriminate on gender.

I agree with the general idea here. I would not suggest that most drum corps discriminate on gender, but I would simply say that over the decades since DCI's inception (1972) there has been a stereotype for the type of roles played in various aspects of drum corps. Nothing wrong with that. Over the course of those decades we have seen progress with how males and females are used in shows.  Show design has certainly changed to better integrate the amazingly talented females that get involved in the activity, and stereotypes have been broken in terms of how guys are used in shows as well.  

This was one of the neat things for me when first following the activity.  Seeing corps like Cavaliers and Madison was so cool because you had guys doing things (namely in guard) that were often thought to be strictly for girls.  Modern-day DCI allows us to see human achievement on display with many of the stereotypes stripped away from show design.  It's a great thing. 

As for Cavaliers not allowing women, I have no problem with that. For the most part Madison does not either.  If the activity as a whole was preventing women from engaging and showing their talents then I would have a problem, but DCI has many opportunities for women to get involved.  We used to have a few all-girl corps from Canada and I really enjoyed them.  Would love to see that come back too.  

It's one thing when we look at something like the NFL where the highest percentage of players are African American yet very few black coaches get a shot.  I know the NFL has done a lot to try and improve this.  

I do not believe that every organization needs to be fully integrated in regard to gender, race, religion, etc. At least with DCI I believe we lose out on some unique opportunities, styles of shows, and traditions that can bring a richness to the activity.  As long as these exclusions are not about hate, race, religion, or other poor stereotypes then I am fine with the rich blend of diversity, tradition, and style that we see today. 

Edited by jwillis35
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7 hours ago, Cappybara said:
3 hours ago, jeffmolnar said:

 

 I’m in my early 20’s. I come from the generation that’s known to put a big emphasis on social issues like these. So I understand where you are coming from. However I think you are trying to find offense and inequality where this is none. The Cavies have never implied or explicitly signaled as an organization that they believe women to be inferior, untalented, or incompetent as compared to men. In fact, in their most recent shows they have been satirizing their own gender! When the principle of equality and respect is so important to you (and me!), what is the issue with the Cavaliers organization maintaining their identity of brotherhood while upholding that principle of respect? 

There are numerous other active corps who did not begin their roots as all-men or all-women organizations that would happily take all the talented female musicians out there, it is the Cavaliers’ loss! The Cavies organization has showed itself to be one of the most openly progressive drum corps out there. Unless they start going back on that, I will always support them being an all-men group.

Cappybara ...Well stated and I wholeheartedly agree!

posted from the DrumScorps app

Edited by Fangirl71
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1 hour ago, jwillis35 said:

I agree with the general idea here. I would not suggest that most drum corps discriminate on gender, but I would simply say that over the decades since DCI's inception (1972) there has been a stereotype for the type of roles played in various aspects of drum corps. Nothing wrong with that. Over the course of those decades we have seen progress with how males and females are used in shows.  Show design has certainly changed to better integrate the amazingly talented females that get involved in the activity, and stereotypes have been broken in terms of how guys are used in shows as well.  

This was one of the neat things for me when first following the activity.  Seeing corps like Cavaliers and Madison was so cool because you had guys doing things (namely in guard) that were often thought to be strictly for girls.  Modern-day DCI allows us to see human achievement on display with many of the stereotypes stripped away from show design.  It's a great thing. 

As for Cavaliers not allowing women, I have no problem with that. For the most part Madison does not either.  If the activity as a whole was preventing women from engaging and showing their talents then I would have a problem, but DCI has many opportunities for women to get involved.  We used to have a few all-girl corps from Canada and I really enjoyed them.  Would love to see that come back too.  

It's one thing when we look at something like the NFL where the highest percentage of players are African American yet very few black coaches get a shot.  I know the NFL has done a lot to try and improve this.  

I do not believe that every organization needs to be fully integrated in regard to gender, race, religion, etc. At least with DCI I believe we lose out on some unique opportunities, styles of shows, and traditions that can bring a richness to the activity.  As long as these exclusions are not about hate, race, religion, or other poor stereotypes then I am fine with the rich blend of diversity, tradition, and style that we see today. 

???  Very limited experience and limited viewpoint leads to gross conclusions it would seem without being too autocratic.

Doesn't this generalization and stereotype depend on what your experience is or to what one has been exposed?

Back in the "traditionalistic" East of the '60's when I first learned of competitiveitive drum corps, Audubon and St. Ignatius were all girl corps who did well; Blessed Sacrament and Holy Name/Garfield Cadets were all male corps who both did well nationally. When the Viet Nam draft made the number of available  males less, then Cadets went co-ed, Golden Knights a few season later. The Pacific had the Maryknoll Girls. The South had The Monroe Girls.

Your post has a circular reasoning: It sounds like this:  There are German descendants in Ohio. Some Germans are autocratic. Autocratic is the best way.  Therefore the German way is the best way. How  it is in Ohio is the best way.

Little experience and little exposure leads to generalizations and stereotypes. DCI has had all male, all female and mixed gender units.  Some excuse Crown of only taking skinny, slim people while Colts provide a place for all is another argument sometimes on the DCP threads. Generalizations might not lead to right conclusions regarding these corps either.
 

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4 hours ago, TRacer said:

I do not feel it necessary to ask, for I simply do not care. I tire very quickly of talking heads and their ardent disciples (aka “ilk”) that tell us what “should” or “shouldn’t” be funny or offensive. I choose what I find to be funny or offensive. For example, I find this entire Theatre of the Absurd-esque dialogue about Cavies to be quite funny. On the other hand, clubbing baby harp seals to death for their pelt is, in my view, horribly cruel and offensive. 

If any Boston Crusaders alum is reading this, that corps did an exceptional job with Animal Farm. I think Boston and a show based on Orwell’s 1984 would be another perfect fit. I’ll even contribute the show concept: the entire corps would come out and set up their equipment. They would then stroll into their opening set, which would be a clump on the front sideline. The announcer would do his thing. Then, in an homage to John Cage, the MMs would simply gaze at the audience in total silence for their allotted 13 minutes. The performers wouldn’t have to do anything, as 1984 would play out right before their eyes.  

Save us, Boston Crusaders; you’re our only hope. 

I am so glad you brought up the Boston Crusaders. So, you say you're looking for the Boston Crusaders to save you? O.K., maybe taking a look at the Crusaders history could truly save you. During the '60's and '70's when many of the Corps across the nation were choosing to evolve by allowing young women into their Brass and Percussion and young men into their Color Guard sections the Crusaders refused claiming that it went against their traditions. They claimed that, during the entire history of the Crusaders no young Women were allowed to perform in their Brass and Percussion sections and that was the way it was going to stay. They believed tradition was all important as tradition was what was helping to keep the Crusaders alive despite all of their epic struggles. So, the Crusaders were using their history and traditions to justify the exclusion of young women?  Sound familiar?

The Crusaders were receiving considerable criticism for their intransigence at the time and, in my opinion, rightly so. But what I did find more than a little interesting is that the same people who were being critical of the Crusaders for not allowing young women into their Brass and Percussion sections were very supportive and fans of the Madison Scouts and the Cavaliers. Some people continue to argue to this day that no comparison can be made between the Crusaders policy of the 60's and 70's and the current policies of the all-Male Corps. Quick question..are their anymore all-Female Corps?  I should point out that the Crusaders Color Guard refused to allow young men to perform with them. I suppose one could choose to echo the argument put forth earlier that the Crusaders Brass and Percussion section were merely choosing to be a fraternity of brothers and their Color Guard a sorority of sisters. 

Though it took the Crusaders too long to evolve they did finally realize in the early '80's the absurdity of this policy of exclusion and began to allow young women into their Brass and percussion sections. In doing so the Crusaders received much praise for finally evolving and choosing to no longer be so close-minded. Of course many of the same people who chose to praise the Crusaders for finally evolving continue to be supportive and fans of the Cavaliers .

Edited by Bsader
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35 minutes ago, xandandl said:

???  Very limited experience and limited viewpoint leads to gross conclusions it would seem without being too autocratic.
 

Excuse me. What are you talking about. My viewpoint is highly educated and comes from much experience. What exactly are you trying to say? That drum corps are evil? That they have poor and mean-spirited intentions? That there is an underlying, criminal intention to exclude people? Auditions alone exclude some people because not everyone will be good enough to make certain corps. None of this happens because a corps is trying to harm people or restrict a certain type of person, but it's done to maintain a high level of performance. 

I'm not sure what political drum you're trying to beat but you're making no sense. My comments above were not apologizing for drum corps' past but merely pointing to its unique history and how we have progressed when it comes to gender, even with 2 all-male corps in the activity (which I have no problem with).

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3 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

Excuse me. What are you talking about. My viewpoint is highly educated and comes from much experience. What exactly are you trying to say? That drum corps are evil? That they have poor and mean-spirited intentions? That there is an underlying, criminal intention to exclude people? Auditions alone exclude some people because not everyone will be good enough to make certain corps. None of this happens because a corps is trying to harm people or restrict a certain type of person, but it's done to maintain a high level of performance. 

I'm not sure what political drum you're trying to beat but you're making no sense. My comments above were not apologizing for drum corps' past but merely pointing to its unique history and how we have progressed when it comes to gender, even with 2 all-male corps in the activity (which I have no problem with).

you are over reacting in a passive aggressive way. you go to the jugular because I point out you have a loose shoelace. Have a good night.

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