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Shootout at the BA/OK Corral (Broken Arrow, OK - July 17, 2018)


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12 hours ago, jeffmolnar said:

I'm not finding offense or inequality though, that's the thing. Y'all are the ones overreacting.

Cavaliers aren't evil, there's nothing wrong with them. But there's no reason for them to not start accepting women either. Their organization might not be sexist now, but the origin of the all-male tradition most certainly is. There's no reason to perpetuate that except... tradition. Not a very good reason in matters such as this.

Pop groups aren't really similar either unless said pop group if a nonprofit youth organization that holds yearly auditions. :hehe:

I really don’t know where I stand on this. It seems like a double standard in that if Cavaliers announces they were no longer accepting black people we would all be up in arms.

Tradition has long been used as a cover for racism. Not that long ago one of the most honored and successful golf courses in the country refused to let Tiger Woods himself play there because of “tradition”. The argument that he could play somewhere else so it wasn’t harmful to him seemed absurd.

Cavaliers are a private organization, so they have the right to exclude and include whomever they wish. But it does somehow feel like a double standard. I’m no social justice warrior believe me, so don’t go drawing rash general conclusions. Drum corps discriminate on all sorts of basis and we accept that this is a part of what makes it what it is. This includes financial means, athletic ability, playing ability, and yes most certainly physical handicaps. You won’t find a deaf, blind or wheelchair bound mm in dci.

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2 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

I really don’t know where I stand on this. It seems like a double standard in that if Cavaliers announces they were no longer accepting black people we would all be up in arms.

Tradition has long been used as a cover for racism. Not that long ago one of the most honored and successful golf courses in the country refused to let Tiger Woods himself play there because of “tradition”. The argument that he could play somewhere else so it wasn’t harmful to him seemed absurd.

Cavaliers are a private organization, so they have the right to exclude and include whomever they wish. But it does somehow feel like a double standard. I’m no social justice warrior believe me, so don’t go drawing rash general conclusions. Drum corps discriminate on all sorts of basis and we accept that this is a part of what makes it what it is. This includes financial means, athletic ability, playing ability, and yes most certainly physical handicaps. You won’t find a deaf, blind or wheelchair bound mm in dci.

Nitpicking, but there have in fact been deaf guard members, drum majors and drummers in DCI corps.

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:19 AM, Bsader said:

being blatantly hypocritical in their continued refusal to not allow young woman into their Corps.

The whole SJW movement is hypocritical so here we pick on the Cavies but who is doing the picking, deranged adults not the kids.  Myself and anyone else with eye problems are discriminated against every show with FLO's buffer flushes constantly varying the resolution. I need two needles placed in the eyeballs this Wednesday just to see my way in/out of LOS in a few weeks. Does  FLO care you think they would being from Austin the SJW capital of the world. These gripes about the Cavies is not coming from young ladies missing out on a dci experience, they much rather date them and have some eye candy to watch, lighten up. It's not the Cavies fault that the SJWs found themselves the minority in 2016.

Edited by Bluzes
typo
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31 minutes ago, dcsnare93 said:

 Nitpicking, but there have in fact been deaf guard members, drum majors and drummers in DCI corps.

As someone who is fairly deaf, I'd love to know more about this.

 I heard more when I was younger but now rely highly on ASL.  Hearing aids can help in certain environments (like my house with bluetooth streaming directly from the TV to them) so I can crank volumes enough to enjoy the musical aspect of the activity still.  But both in marching High School band (ISSMA) and watching the activity, the visual elements allow for the rhythmic portions of shows to read clearly for me to enjoy too.  (I was known as a hell of a marcher as well as a tenor sax player, although I was never quite good at improvisation in jazz band as picking out the chords would freeze me. I'd hear the changes but it'd take me a bit long to sort out what the change was and I'd mentally freeze and mess up all sorts of things.)  

I'd initially started with snare drum but didn't continue because I'd reached that age when I didn't want to be like dad.  I liked playing the cello, but wanted in on marching band too.  I think the drum lessons have given me a sharp sense of rhythm and syncopation, while I liked the cello because I could feel the vibrations. The tenor sax became my horn largely because my cousin had one they weren't using I could start with but also it was low enough I could pick out the intonation better.  I have surprisingly good relative pitch identification.  In music theory I could say "that's a minor 5th" or something, but if I didn't know one of the notes, I couldn't tell you what the other was very well.  Music identification was a test I nailed regularly.  I still remember the final exam when Appalachian Spring started up.  We were all listening intently and I was panicky because I wasn't hearing the soft strings others were.  Then the "bum BA bum" sounded and I blurted out CADETS! then realized I may have spoiled the test and shut up and started writing my answer in.  The rest of the class was still struggling and my clue didn't really help them.  But the band director who was teaching bust up laughing.  I had some visual association for EVERY piece that might be on the final and for that one...CADETS!

 

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3 minutes ago, Bluzes said:

The whole SWJ movement is hypocritical so here we pick on the Cavies but who is doing the picking, deranged adults not the kids.  Myself and anyone else with eye problems are discriminated against every show with FLO's buffer flushes constantly varying the resolution. I need two needles placed in the eyeballs this Wednesday just to see my way in/out of LOS in a few weeks. Does  FLO care you think they would being from Austin the SJW capital of the world. These grips about the Cavies is not coming from young ladies missing out on a dci experience, they much rather date them and have some eye candy to watch, lighten up. It's not the Cavies fault that the SWJ's found themselves the minority in 2016.

I will say this. I was age eligible to March from roughly 01-06... At the time the Cavaliers were on top of the world and I felt disappointed that some of the greatest musicians and Marchers that I was surrounded by in college could not be part of the best group just because we are  girls..but I wasn't going to gripe about it because hey that's the way it is.

Now, while the Cavaliers are not back on top of the world they are competitive. My setiments are now that being all male makes them unique (I know Madison but the Cavaliers and Madison are so different).

But if the Cavaliers do reign supreme again it would be pretty heartbreaking to tell a young lady that she can't join the best group just because she is a girl "Sorry Susie you can't be part of the best group because you are a girl but Benny that's 3 chairs below you would be a perfect fit... Don't worry though there are 22 other fine organizations you can be a part of Life just isn't fair I guess".I guess what I am saying is you don't hear a lot of young ladies complaining because they aren't on top so it doesn't matter as much.

Personally and morally I don't think it's any governing body's place to make the Cavaliers or Madison allow women in because I believe in the rights of a private organization to make their own decisions but I also think that all of you on here argueing about social justice and politics need to realize that it can and does affect people.

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3 minutes ago, ThePlanets said:
4 minutes ago, ThePlanets said:

she can't join the best group just because she is a girl

 

What about the young ladies that excel in NCAA baseball/softball and other sports that only employ men. Why not take the fight there seems their would be a bigger stage than dci. I never won anything at all but don't use discrimination as an excuse. Feeling sorry for the women of the world just because they can't be Cavies is shortsighted and a weak way to get the SJW's point across, if there is one.

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16 minutes ago, Bluzes said:

What about the young ladies that excel in NCAA baseball/softball and other sports that only employ men. Why not take the fight there seems their would be a bigger stage than dci. I never won anything at all but don't use discrimination as an excuse. Feeling sorry for the women of the world just because they can't be Cavies is shortsighted and a weak way to get the SJW's point across, if there is one.

The way you use the term “SJW” irks me, as if there is something wrong with fighting for equal rights. 

I am still on the side of Cavies remaining all-men because I respect the tradition of a private organization, but there is nothing wrong with seeking equality. 

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13 minutes ago, Bluzes said:

The whole SWJ movement is hypocritical so here we pick on the Cavies but who is doing the picking, deranged adults not the kids.  Myself and anyone else with eye problems are discriminated against every show with FLO's buffer flushes constantly varying the resolution. I need two needles placed in the eyeballs this Wednesday just to see my way in/out of LOS in a few weeks. Does  FLO care you think they would being from Austin the SJW capital of the world. These grips about the Cavies is not coming from young ladies missing out on a dci experience, they much rather date them and have some eye candy to watch, lighten up. It's not the Cavies fault that the SWJ's found themselves the minority in 2016.

This is all about the hypocrisy of selective outrage for me. Why are so many bending over backwards to excuse behavior that would be considered inexcusable given somewhat different circumstances. So I'll say it....if a member of the gay community was discriminated against for any reason many of you responding in favor of the Cavaliers continuing to discriminate against Women would be outraged and rightly so as that can not and should not stand. Many, if not all of you, believe in what I will refer to as the inclusion movement. What I don't understand is how one can choose to believe in and promote the need for our country, and the people of Oklahoma, to stop being so close-minded and be inclusive while, at the same time, decide to turn a blind eye to the practice of exclusion. 

In a reply to this post one spoke of his outrage regarding the reaction of a man to the end of the Cavaliers show. The man was a Father and was attending the show with his young Daughter. The writer of this reply spoke of his outrage as to the Fathers statement to his Daughter telling her "You will never march in that Corps."  Again, I don't understand how the writer could not see the hypocrisy in his outrage because, in fact , the Father was right because the young girl will not march in the Cavaliers because the Cavaliers are purposely not going to let her. 

I am sure that many who read that Fathers remark were outraged by it while, at the same time, somehow continue to think that it ain't no big thing that the young girl will be denied the right to perform with the Cavaliers even if she rejected her Fathers closed-minded view of the world. To me I find it sad that this young girl is stuck between the views of her Father and the policy of the Cavaliers. I believe that if the Cavaliers truly want things to change then they should look in the mirror and realize they need to do some changing themselves. They should cut this Girl a little slack and give her some hope that maybe, one day, she can prove her Father wrong and perform with the Cavaliers. If anything it may help the Father begin to view the world with a more open mind because, if you know Fathers, they usually become big fans of what their daughters choose to participate in. 

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45 minutes ago, ThePlanets said:

I will say this. I was age eligible to March from roughly 01-06... At the time the Cavaliers were on top of the world and I felt disappointed that some of the greatest musicians and Marchers that I was surrounded by in college could not be part of the best group just because we are  girls..but I wasn't going to gripe about it because hey that's the way it is.

Now, while the Cavaliers are not back on top of the world they are competitive. My setiments are now that being all male makes them unique (I know Madison but the Cavaliers and Madison are so different).

But if the Cavaliers do reign supreme again it would be pretty heartbreaking to tell a young lady that she can't join the best group just because she is a girl "Sorry Susie you can't be part of the best group because you are a girl but Benny that's 3 chairs below you would be a perfect fit... Don't worry though there are 22 other fine organizations you can be a part of Life just isn't fair I guess".I guess what I am saying is you don't hear a lot of young ladies complaining because they aren't on top so it doesn't matter as much.

Personally and morally I don't think it's any governing body's place to make the Cavaliers or Madison allow women in because I believe in the rights of a private organization to make their own decisions but I also think that all of you on here argueing about social justice and politics need to realize that it can and does affect people.

Agree in part though I believe that the the Cavaliers and the Scouts are uniquely wrong compared to other Corps that make up DCI. I suppose this is irrelevant but two of my favorite shows in the history of Drum Corps are '75 and '78 Madison. I also would like to add that, and I maybe wrong on this, but I don't recall saying that the Cavaliers should be force by law to accept young women into their Corps and that they should be sued if they don't. If I did then I was barking up the wrong tree. But it is my opinion that just because the Cavaliers may have the right doesn't make it's right.

Edited by Bsader
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21 hours ago, CrownBariDad said:

It can get worse -- some productions (mostly indy films) have a limited budget for costumes, so unless you can fit into what they have on hand, you're outta luck.

Back in college, I was a member of the Titanic Historical Society.  We got first dibs on casting as extras in the James Cameron film. The only caveats were that you had to be available for six weeks in Baja... and be under 5'8".  The ship was built 80% to scale, so people also had to be 80% to scale or they'd look like giants.  I'm 6', sadly...

Mike

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