How do the judges form this Borg Collective, a singularity of thought all season?

[N.E. Brigand]

3 hours ago, Tim K said:

I am an avid amateur photographer and I belong to a camera club. The "Masters Class" has some of the best amateur photographers in the country. I'm not in this category, and probably will not be, but six times a year there are competitions. For years I could never understand how the judges decided which images in the Masters Class would win awards. Every image was always in focus, every image was original or at least had an original look at something familiar. I went to a workshop how judges who are approved by the Photographic Society of America (PSA) evaluate photos. Though it was meant to help people improve their own photos or select images for competition, but it helped undertsnd why certain photos in the masters Class received prizes and why some did not.

I've often thought that if judges for DCI could better explain how they judged, it would be helpful. Perhaps if DCI produced a video it might help.

Something else that is important too, talk with folks who know drill, color guard, percussion, brass, design, etc. I don't always like the shows that win, but in most cases I understand why they won. If you know a certain area, again share what you know.

Great post.

[luv4corps]

Clearly, it's a 400 lb guy in his bedroom who is hacking the sheets.

Edited July 18, 2018 by luv4corps

[GUARDLING]

3 hours ago, BlueStainGlass said:

Ive helped design/designed shows in WGI for the last 5 years in 3 different classes and someone on here said I don't know anything about design.  So would these people really care?

1

 

THIS!

Edited July 18, 2018 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

21 minutes ago, FTNK said:

All I know is that judges have zero objectivity. Was teaching a band in 2009 and a judge—big time, multiple DCI finals judge—paid us a visit and basically said that Blue Devils were the best at everything and he would never score certain other corps well because he didn’t like how they did drill.

#NotAllJudges

[Jeff Ream]

8 hours ago, Bluzes said:

Take Boston for instance their show appeals to a larger venue. Last night in Olathe there is no way that the judges had any more idea of how the patterns formed than Santa Claus did but the scores miraculously reflect differently.

May not be as educated as a judge but to me your scores remind me of fake news. Not buying it, that there is any individual thought, fall out of line and your out, I get it. 

But your not kidding anybody. At least I told my HR department years ago I can't help you the world is just as bad today and am saying Merry Christmas from now on (sent me for sensitvity training or charm school like we liked to call it) at least I tried.

this may be the most entertaining ( not in a good way) post of the year

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, Cappybara said:

This is the unfortunate state of our society right now. The term "fake news" is about as intellectual as the person who popularized it. 

Personally, I think the fact that the judges are able to come to a consensus shows that they've been trained well and know what they're doing. At the same time, there is enough variation (certain sections of BAC such as colorguard is scoring higher than the rest of the sections in the corps, as an example) to make me doubt that a hivemind is driving the scores. I'm not saying that the hivemind isn't there at all, but it certainly isn't dictating a majority of the outcome

exactly...and we're seeing subtle variations in the sub boxes as programs begin to solidify more

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, Bluzes said:

Lived it last night in Olathe ran into some Argonne buddies who just  came in from St Louis and sitting up high in Olathe they lost out on things that Boston does that was physically impossible to see from their vantage point and the crowd reaction reflected such but scores did not. Boston is fine not pointing to any negatives with the show can't wait I will see them down low with a large display so I don't miss anything, it's all good.  Just a simple question.

you do realize that every corps plans for the end of season venue, Lucas Oil Stadium, in Indianapolis, which is a large...maybe even larger venue than St. Louis right? It's not like the upstairs judges are 20 rows high at the oil Can. And every corps knows this and plans for this right?

[TRacer]

I am (and have been) a Visual Performance judge for a few band circuits on the Mainland (I went through an evaluation process, yes) and I am a Music judge/clinician here on the Hawaiian Islands doing mainly indoor venues. On the music judging side I’ve worked with top educators and composers (there are two judges per competition); one was a horn instructor for Blue Stars in 2017. 

Here’s what helps me:

— I recognize my limitations; I would never consider myself qualified to judge Music at the DCI level. 

— Judging is a way for me to give back to the activity, and I’d like to think most judges (band, DCI, WGI, etc.) share the same philosophy no matter where in the country they may judge. I am not out to “get” a certain group or come off as Lord Vader (“I find your lack of step awareness...disturbing...”)  I get very positive feedback on my judges tapes because I don’t “talk” to the staff per se, but to the performers. All my tapes have the same opening spiel, that being, if the director has time, I encourage that he or she let the students listen to as much of the tape as possible. It is all about the kids, after all. 

— The ability to compartmentalize for future recall. 

—- The ability to spot errors but communicate effective solutions for those errors in a positive manner *on the fly*.  

— No biases toward band x or y.

— I’m not a Negative Nancy. 

— I’m concerned for the performers’ safety. (On Tape: “Note for the band moms! With the backup technique the students are using I highly advise checking pant length in the ________ section as their heels are very close to getting caught in the cuffs, and that can lead to nasty falls.”) 

— The ability to think fast. Really fast. Best example I have ever seen was Alan “The Flash” Christensen saving the Crown snare drummer’s age out performance by running that dropped snare drum aaaaalllllll the way back to that drummer in time for the big hit. Drum handoff at 190 bpm— a perfect 10! (Drum remount on harness: 11!) And then Alan kept on going....doing his job.  Then he went back to check on the drummer later. Judges are human. 

I have inquired about being a DCI judge and keep a phone number handy; I understand the training is thorough and I’m a huge fan of learning no matter how old I am. It would be a way to give back to the DC activity and now that my son (3rd year SCVC trumpet currently) is in college and my medical issues have subsided, upon reflection perhaps it’s time to pull that trigger. Think about it: this is a chance in some small way to help a performer do ______ just THAT MUCH BETTER next time, and then when all those ”that much better next times” are added up and multiplied by the number of performers....what a payoff. I’d like to think other judges see it this way too. 

Sorry for the length. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by TRacer
Typos

[Mello Dude]

..or just mark it up to the Russians hacking DCI scoring. :P

[cixelsyd]

15 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

News is news, whether you agree with it, believe it, or do your research. Some people simply choose to not believe something and then call it fake. But what proof do you have that it's fake...the news or DCI judging? 

In the case of news, next-day retractions (and firing of the offending contributors) serve as evidence.  But most of what is referred to as "fake news" is the result of the increasing use of tactics that aim to present opinions as if they are facts.  

Applying that to DCI judging, which is the art/science of quantifying opinions, I can see why someone might observe the scoring consistency between various DCI events and think it is somehow "fake".  To answer the OP, then, I would point out several things.

- To start with, one reason scores are consistent is because of the relative consistency of the corps.

- The corps ask for a system that produces consistent results, where scores between different events are somewhat comparable and show an upward progression as corps improve over the course of the season.  The judges, therefore, are doing what their employers ask.

- There is a process by which individual corps can complain about individual judges.  Naturally, non-conformist judges tend to be the ones caught up in that process.

- Judges talk to each other.  They take breaks together.  They carpool to shows.  They room together on the road.  Some work together in other pageantry activities year round.  It is only natural that this social behavior would cause their opinions to converge a bit.