Key changes - can anyone help a drummer?

[RickCogley]

I'm curious - I heard one of the reasons for the switch to Bb was the fact that you can do key changes. Did anyone fully use the capabilities of their Bb horns last year?

ALso, for what its worth as a drummer, I did notice a change in the sound after I started listening more carefully. I kind of tend to like the G bugle sound.

I noticed a difference also in a 1965 Royal Airs  recording, the various chords they were doing sounded in tune with each other but sometimes they did not sound in tune with the next chord in the sequence. Is that a function of the bugle technology (rotary?) back then? I mean, to sound that good on a bugle limited by a lack of valves to assist the players to produce the right pitches is quite the accomplishment.

Regards

Rick

[brassguymike]

Switching between all 12 major keys has been possilbe since the 3 valve rule change in 1990.  We usually stick to certain keys because of where they land on the fingers (ie. easier finger patterns) and their sonority.  Switching keys isn't a factor as far as switching to Bb's b/c that was possilbe with the G's.  BTW...Bb hornlines aren't all playing Bb...the mellophone is usually in F.

You're not alone in hearing a difference between Bb lines and G lines.  Different keyed horns have different sonorities...that is a fact.  The best reason I like for switching to Bb...quality of horns.  The horns come from the plant in better shape than most bugles do.  And with their resale value, it's easier to replace a Bb line every few years.  

Without hearing exactly what you're talking about with the 65 Royal Airs, I can take a guess at what you're hearing.  The chords that sound in tune are probably better slotted in the horn.  That is to say...the horn simply plays those notes better.  Without having fully chromatic horns, many notes had to be bent to try and get them to fit in the chord.  The horn simply wasn't made to play those notes, but there are ways to get them to work...kind of.

Hope this helps some.

Mike

[Jeff]

"I noticed a difference also in a 1965 Royal Airs  recording, the various chords they were doing sounded in tune with each other but sometimes they did not sound in tune with the next chord in the sequence. Is that a function of the bugle technology (rotary?) back then? I mean, to sound that good on a bugle limited by a lack of valves to assist the players to produce the right pitches is quite the accomplishment."

In 1965 all bugles were pitched in G with a D valve. It was not until 1968 that the F valve was employed. So, many notes were very difficult to play in tune as the open and high Bb harmonic was played to get Bb (open) and F (valve, a perfect 4th lower), making it very difficult to tune chords with these tones. This would explain what you ears have heard.

Remember that brass instruments' harmonic series (open tones) does not correspond to the tempered scale. So a brass player must learn to adjust the non-tempered notes to proper tuning. The open Bb is very flat interms of the tempered scale. The G-F bugles allowed the Bb to be played with the valve off the high C open tone and the F with valve from the open G, eliminating that porblem. Thus you can really hear the difference between the G-D and G-F era in terms of intonation.

Hope that explains it,

Jeff

[RickCogley]

Wow, thanks! That explains it very well. So, it's not just good luck that good hornlines sound good - there's a lot of skill in there, too, huh?

Thanks again for your patience and the detailed answers.

Kind regards

Rick

[PioneerLeadSop]

I thought the main reason why corps wanted Bb was so kids coming in would feel more comfortable playing on instruments that were in the same key as there band instruments.

[brassguymike]

The learning curve of adjusting to the horns is greatly increased over the first few weeks, but after that there shouldn't be any difference.  After a couple weeks of everydays, any player can adjust to G bugles so from there there isn't any difference as far as comfort/adjustment.

[ScoutMello]

I thought the main reason why corps wanted Bb was so kids coming in would feel more comfortable playing on instruments that were in the same key as there band instruments.

Trumpet players should have no problem switching keys at all.  They regularly play on Bb, C, F, etc.  keyed horns in orchestral work.  for Mellophone, there is only a whole step difference in pitch, so that shouldn't be a problem as well.  Besides, if you're a horn player on Mellophone, key is the least of your problems.  Trying to keep your horn embouchure through tour is TOUGH.

[SpizleR]

Trumpet players should have no problem switching keys at all.  They regularly play on Bb, C, F, etc.  keyed horns in orchestral work.  for Mellophone, there is only a whole step difference in pitch, so that shouldn't be a problem as well.  Besides, if you're a horn player on Mellophone, key is the least of your problems.  Trying to keep your horn embouchure through tour is TOUGH.

Correction... *symphonic* trumpet players should have no problem switching keys. I have personally never touched a C, D, G, or A trumpet (I have touched an Eb) and in my experience it was actually quite a step to play bugle. A few weeks after you get there and a few weeks after you get back you get used to it, but I can see that as a valid reason.