Cadets to top of the scoreboard

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

Heh, when I read this, all I can think is "the judges aren't giving us enough credit for the show and this is why they should...".  Of course, that impression is likely helped by the fact that I've seen several other blog entries with the same basic message.  In the past couple years it was that the show was clearly the most entertaining in DCI that year, and so that should be reflected in the scores.  Now, it's that the Cadets are bringing the most to the table, and that should be reflected in the scores. 

What I've learned is that Vic is right;  it seems that George always wants to be scoring better than he is, no matter who he's beating, and that he quite often feels the Cadets are the best corps out there, and with the best show.  Those certainly aren't bad qualities, not for a director of a corps.  The Cadets oranization is lucky to have someone that will never settle for scores, and always has faith in his group. 

I just wish, though, that he wouldn't always lay things at the feet of the judges, and imply that it's the judges fault for not "getting it" and seeing things his way...

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Well, if the judges aren't "getting it," then it is the show design's fault, not the judges.

[Cardman]

If your theory is correct, the Cavaliers should have beat the Blue Devils in 2003.

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AMEN!!!

You think the Cavies '03 show was harder than BD's?  Musically or visually?  Or both?

I disagree with all of the above.  The Cavies drill looks cooler, and its my favorite overall drill design ever, especially in the opener, but it wasn't any more challenging than BD's, IMO.  About even as far as challenge goes. Musically, I would give the challenging award to BD. 

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Both. Cavies '03 show was clearly (in my eyes) more difficult BOTH visually AND musically. How they won is still a mystery to me, as I sit and watch the dvds over and over....How can you can say the Cavie's drill was no more difficult than the Devil's drill without laughing? Perhaps you meant to put a in there? Yes, that must be it....

[Lance]

Both.  Cavies '03 show was clearly (in my eyes) more difficult BOTH visually AND musically.  How they won is still a mystery to me, as I sit and watch the dvds over and over....How can you can say the Cavie's drill was no more difficult than the Devil's drill without laughing?  Perhaps you meant to put a    in there?  Yes, that must be it....

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What is wrong with you? I'll respond to you again when and if you can discuss things like a big boy.

Goodness.

[Phantombari1]

I think every corp should get credit for their accomplishments. Seems that's the purpose of a scoring system. Next thing will be hearing is how the scoring needs to be just high enough for them to win a championship. We don't need a liberal discription of judging procedures in order to fit what he needs.

I think GH should run for President because I've heard this type of talk before!

If only he could get on the O'Reilly Factor, then we would get a fair and honest assessment!

[AnaheimAlumni]

speaking to the show?, Catholic School girls?, the door?, The Twilight Zone?, The Dream?, the change in dreams?, GEORGE BUSH???????

WHAT IN THE #### IS HE SMOKING? IT'S DRUM CORPS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!

It's no wonder the fans haven't a clue. Just shut up and play music!

Edited July 22, 2005 by AnaheimAlumni

[77kingsmensnare]

speaking to the show?, Catholic School girls?, the door?, The Twilight Zone?, The Dream?, the change in dreams?, GEORGE BUSH???????

WHAT IN THE #### IS HE SMOKING? IT'S DRUM CORPS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!

It's no wonder the fans haven't a clue. Just shut up and play music!

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What He Said

[bawker]

When the corps won in the 80's 93, 98, 2000 etc ... we did more than most anyone, and we made more mistakes. Check out 1993 ...

WOW ... fast, furious and NOT PERFECT. But, it was clear these kids were on another planet.

Today, well ... the world is more conservative. George Bush is President, we are trying to stack the court, and for some judges, performance is a matter of how many mistakes one makes.

It is a tough call.

I understand.

This is a cop-out, pure and simple.

The world is more conservative? Well, that may be the case in the political arena, but certainly not in the arena of art and the drum corps idiom.

The whiplash drill, the mello runs...from what I've seen its the Cadets productions that have become more conservative since his stated year of 2000. "Moondance"? "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy"? "Malaguena"? Those are all "safe" picks....performed superbly, but still "safe".

The experimentation is missing, even from this year...several corps have played parts of the Cadets show in some fashion or another. As mentioned, the concept has been done before by a BOA band in another fashion.

1993, 1998, and 2000 more or less brought something completely new to the field. Period.

There are so many wind ensemble pieces, let alone "American" (if the Cadets are still roughly defined by playing American music) compositions that haven't been touched that could absolutely redefine the idiom, the Cadets and make everyone else play catch up, just like in those years of 1993, 1998 and so on.

Charles Ives? Willam Grant Still? More from Glass? Cage? This is off the top of my head, and I wasn't even a music major in college. :)

Remember, not everyone knew a Holsinger or a Sparke in the beginning.

Additionally, you can still win doing "more than most anyone." The Cavaliers seem to have done it quite a bit in the past five years. It's not all perfect, but there's so much to take in (much like 1993 and 1998), it dazzles you with its layering.

Want to really knock the marching arts world on it ###?

Play Still's "Afro American Symphony"...incorporate those deep issues of slavery and freedom into your show. Don't be afraid to make those statements.

Play Charles Ives "4th Symphony" and use the religious imagery to truly evoke emotion and bring the audience into your program...a la the ballad from 1991.

Those are the things that can "redefine", "reshape" and win you a championship...or at the very least, reclaim you the title of the "relentless pursuit of the edge".

2005 is a well performed and likeable concept...but when the cry of 'innovation is not being rewarded' is made....well, you've got to innovate... to turn things on their ear... to make the status quo in the idiom seem pathetic....you've got to do those things first in order to see the rewards. :)

(edited for spelling. :P)

Edited July 23, 2005 by bawker

[^Michael^]

I think he said this same thing to the Cadets who marched last year?  Something about it being his "grandest memory" or "favorite corps". I remember watching him as prepared them for finals and said that he will always remember that group as one

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Is it okay with you if he has more than one grand memory? If I were him, with his record - I'd have dozens! And the comment last year was that it would go down as one of his favorite corps. Again - consistent with the idea that there would probably be more than one.

[mobrien]

Let's think about this approach for a moment. In effect, what he's saying is that if archictect 1 designs a building that looks good on paper but has all sorts of engineering issues that only got partially solved, he should get more 'credit' than his fellows who came up with equally impressive designs that the public liked better, had solvable engineering questions, and actually ACCOMPLISHED what they set out to do.

There are no 'A's for effort" in the real world (and no artist seeks to have a success d'estime if he can have a popular AND critical success instead)

Edited July 23, 2005 by mobrien

[victorcoly]

From Hopkins Blog 7/21:

(SNIP)

Today, well ... the world is more conservative. George Bush is President, we are trying to stack the court, and for some judges, performance is a matter of how many mistakes one makes.

It is a tough call.

I understand.

But ... when I see who we are, what we do, and the risk we have taken ... I worry. I worry about who is receiving the presentation. Will they be able to perceive all that is stacked in the program? Will we be good enough to please those with clipboards? Will one of the more interesting programs I have been involved with, go down in history or will it simply be a footnote.

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Does this mean Hopkins is calling some judges "flip-flops?" Yeesh...

(Turning "humor" switch to "off" position)

On a serious note... To Mr. George Hopkins--to turn the judges reaction (or in your opinion a lack of reaction) into equating it with "George Bush is President, we are trying to stack the court" is just flat out ridiculous! George, in the times you and I have talked on the phone and emailed (albeit the last time we talked, it took you 5 mins. to remember we had talked before) I have wondered what angle you were taking at the subject matter we were discussing at the time.

In Massillon, OH a few years back, we sat in the rear stands as you were waiting to go into crtitique, and the conversation we had changed my opinion of you for the better in many ways. Two years later, we talked on the phone about the YEA! Cadets/Crossmen stuff and the "milktoast" answers you gave surprised me.

Now we have you paralleling DCI judges' reaction, or lack of it, to who is occupying the White House, and the U.S. Supreme Court.

Could it be that YOU are the one who isn't receiving the presentation correctly regarding our country, let alone the judging community's read on Cadets show? After all, when the timing guys can't figure out when Cadets program starts, to quote another poster "is that innovation?"

The world has and is changing. More bombings in London today, and now on the coast of the Red Sea in the past few hours. The judging community regarding drum corps has and IS changing, and has changed. I believe you are part of a Board of Directors that APPROVED the current changes to the system, as well as the last four or five changes.

The world also has constants.... One of which is our nation's safety and security. Are we safer with George W. Bush as President rather then John Kerry? I will not speculate on that, because this isn't the forum to debate that.

The drum corps community also has constants....From your Blog, " and for some judges, performance is a matter of how many mistakes one makes. It is a tough call." One of the constants that I would demand from any drum corps judge is that the BETTER performance wins!!! Gee whiz, George, you have a percussion background!!!! Are you going to tell me that a drum line who has phasing issues from pit to battery, and a snare line that plays fuzzy rolls should get MORE credit because they are marching at 172 bpm, and covering 30 yards in 12 steps???? That isn't a system that even you are ready to fully support!

All the aforementioned being said.... your beloved Cadets are doing well this season! The kids are working hard, and from what I've heard (I have yet to see Cadets live) the corps has one #### of a show!!! Don't ruin it by airing your political views in comparison to the DCI judging community!!!

(Stepping off of soapbox)