Why do people think G = "Bugles"????

[Kansan]

I've learned something from instructors of current lines over the past few weekends.

For the Tubas/Contras

It's a Tuba section when they sound alright, Contra section when they sound good.

I haven't heard a Contra/Tuba section for years now. I have heard some killer bass synth though. (total sarcasm)

[Jeff and Carol Garrett]

This is the key right here. Differences in manufacturers and evolution of construction aside, bugles are conically-bored, while trumpets (and other true concert instruments) are cylindrical. This means that when you reach the sound production area, the cylindrical instruments have a longer length of "narrow" piping before the bell flares to allow the sound to escape. Conical instruments, on the other hand, tend to have an emphasis on a more gradual increase in bore size, producing a different characteristic sound when the instrument is played properly. A similar difference exists between a trumpet and a cornet - the cornet, when played properly, has a darker and more mellow sound, while a trumpet is designed to ring and pierce orchestra sound veils. Indeed, due to these characteristic sound differences you'll be able to find some earlier concert band arrangements that call for both a trumpet and a cornet part in the same group.

Of course a lot of this has changed over time. When I started marching junior corps (mid 90s), you couldn't really tell much difference between a trumpet in Bb and a soprano pitched in G. I believe the conical bore was still there, but it was vastly under-pronounced. When I marched with the Glassmen in 97, we used a french horn line instead of a mellophone line, as those instruments shared the same distinction (I believe the marching french horns we used were cylindrical, while the standard mellophone is conical) and the french horn was determined to push through the ensemble and produce a better brass choir sound.

Regarding the lower brass, in my experience there is a unique difference in terminology. Nearly every marching baritone I've seen/played on (be that Bb or G) was conically-bored, with a very noticeable widening taper after leaving the valves. Technically, in that respect, they're hybrid euphoniums - the euphonium differs from the baritone in its conical bore, producing a more resonant sound across the range of the instrument. Actual concert baritones are drastically different in construction from their marching counterparts. Part of that is the compactness and bell-front orientation of the horns, but there is also a difference in the tubing diameter. Compare the tubing diameters of a Besson Prestige concert Bb baritone (http://www.wwbw.com/Besson-BE2056-Prestige-Series-Bb-Baritone-Horn-620230-i1447440.wwbw) to this Blessing Bb Marching Baritone (http://www.wwbw.com/Blessing-BM-301-Marching-Bb-Baritone-H71523-i1809932.wwbw) - you can easily see the difference between the cylindrical bore of the concert horn and the conical bore of the marching instrument.

I won't speak to the physics of Bb and G Harmonics, but the poster I quoted mentioned the change in the overtone series that results from changing horn keys.

I apologize if any of this is flat misinformation. Most of my knowledge comes from playing far too many horns across far too many types of ensembles. Please correct me where I am wrong. My personal opinion is that a G line, played by excellent players with a focus on tuning and ensemble sound, can provide a much more visceral experience to the listener at a larger distance than a Bb/F line with the same parameters. This is mostly due to my own anecdotal data, particularly having marched in and attended finals both before and after the switch. Cavaliers '95 felt like they were hitting me square in the chest with their sound during Mars, even from the top row of the NFL stadium we were in. Cadets '08 was really the only corps to replicate that feeling for me, and I think a lot of that was driven by the chip they had on their shoulder over people's criticisms of their narration choices. Of course I was about 60 yards closer to the field at that particular show (Racine, WI), so your mileage may vary.

I can, in my experience agree with all stated.... As for the overtones. Scientifically speaking, the key of the instrument makes no difference in the quantity of the overtones. However, since the "G" horns are keyed lower, they have more "room" for lower overtones. This is one reason they work so well outside. Take them inside, and the abundance of the lower overtone series (simple because it starts lower) will quickly overpower the ears and all that (could) be discernible is lost within the lower overtones. Put those same overtones outside where they can project freely and farther without reverberating within themselves so you can hear them.

Even though every brass instrument is capable of producing overtones. The strength of the individual overtones produced is more influenced by the player and his/her mouthpiece and how the system as a whole works together. Breath, lips, mouthpiece, horn = an individual’s specific tone, or how your ear is hearing the overtones produced by that player. More high overtones = a “brighter” player, more middle overtones (normally called "core") or more lower overtones = a darker toned player. The overtones are still there, the player is in effect, acting as sort of a stereo graphic equalizer producing “there” individual sound “curve”. Put a bunch of horn players together with their individual overtones, and they begin to reinforce themselves and become more audible. The horns sound more the same. This also works well if all the members of the line play the same brand of horn and mouthpiece. It simple strengthens those overtones.

Also, the more in-tune a group of horns are the more of the characteristic quality of sound the horn was intended to produce comes out. The overtones become more predominant and fight each other less. In short. The more in-tune, the louder you will be due to fewer overtones "sound canceling" each other.

Just think of how many multiples of 440HZ there are that a human ear can hear! That’s the magic of brass!!!

[CANDRUMMER]

Here in Canada like in the British Army different horns were used to sound the various bugle calls.

Infantry and Rifle Regiments used the short Bb bugle

Artillery Regiments used the "G" Trumpet

Cavalry Regiments used the Eb Trumpet

Not sure about the US Army and Navy but wouldn't be surprised if it was similar.

I recall seeing in some of the old catalogs most bugle makers made G piston Bugles as well as Bb models as well.

The US Marine Drum Corps had two sets of horns. Bb when they marched with the Marine Band and G-D when they performed by themselves. I believe they were made by Holton.

[Bruckner8]

For me, it's merely tradition...nothing more or less, and that's OK. One can lookup the definition of "bugle" on wiki. Then it's up to you to decide if the keyed/valved instruments that ensued still qualify. It's tradition.

But I want clear up one thing about overtones, and how they "work" when comparing two hornlines, one in G, one in Bb/F.

Imagine both hornlines playing a concert C Major chord. The bass note, C, is on the exact same series for both instruments: The 3rd harmonic of the F series! However, the contra in G is using only 1st valve! The tuba in Bb is using 13V or 4V. Although 4V is an improvement over 13V (for intonation mostly, and ease minimally), the length of that small pipe is significant. The ratio of the small pipe in the valves to the ratio of the entire instrument is MUCH LARGER in a Bb tuba. One wants to minimize valve use ratios when "Big sound" is the goal. IOW, the contra in G will be using a lot more "of the sound production part" of the horn, after the valves.

Let's pick an easy one: G Major. Well, each instrument has a G series (Open for G, 12V for Bb). It shouldn't take much to understand that a G Major chord would sound much bigger (fuller) on a G contra, since there's NO RESISTANCE. G Major always sounds weak and thin with modern hornlines....all of them...even championship ones. If you can't tell the difference, that's on you.

What about Bb major? Shouldn't that sound better on Bb horns, since it's the center of the horn? Sure it does, from a "getting it for free" standpoint (the open major 3rd). But let's follow the same process, and ask which series and harmonics are involved. Obviously, the Bb tuba is open, and if the arranger works for the Cadets, Blue Devils or Crown, the chosen root will be "tuning Bb," the 4th harmonic. On the G bugle, that pitch is played as the 5th harmonic of the Gb (2V) series. (The octave lower isn't available on a horn with only two valves.) This is what John Simpson is talking about when he says that the G Bugles are usually playing the "same notes on a higher partial" on thus adding a certain "color" that is unique to all-G hornlines. All of the extra length (horn in G is still longer than Bb, no matter what!), combined with the higher partial adds both DEPTH AND BRILLIANCE...the Bb have only the brilliance, IMO.

I've only talked about the contra/tuba voice. I could make a similar argument all the way up the food chain, pointing out that the G partial will be higher, and/or the ratio of G valve notes to total horn will be less. It's most noticable (and important) in the tubas and euphs. In my perfect hornline, if we're stuck with B-flats, would include a new contra horn in F, one step below the G bugles, to fill that DEPTH gap we're lacking. I'd need the F Euphs too, lol.

Or, better yet, build a hornline from the bottom up, like so:

G Contras

C Tubas
G EUphs

C Baris
G Frenchies
G Mellos
G Sops
C Trumpets

Wouldn't you like to hear 8 colors instead of the 4 boring ones we have now (sop/mel/bari/tuba)?

[CANDRUMMER]

I've seen old ads from the 30's 40's from bugle manufacturers that showing two lines of bugles G-D piston models and Bb-F piston models for sale.I believe they were Holton and Conn horns.

Both had similar voices Soprano Tenor Baritone. The US Marine Drum and Bugle Corps used both voices. Bb when marching with the Marine Band and the G-D when performing by themselves.

So really Bb is nothing new!