perc2100 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Also goes with Stus posts about bottom feeding sports teams as MLB, etc do watch out that these teams do not fold. Are you sure about that? Sincerely, the Montreal Expos, Seattle Supersonics, LA Raiders & Rams, San Diego Clippers, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Nothing against Bluecoats or Carolina Crown, but if you are going to call this the "Tour of Champions", I would put Madison in and take those 2 out. Remember Madison won 2 DCI titles (1975, 1988). I really thought that this G7 (TOC) was meant to be those corps that won at least 1 title. 1) that was apparently never the intention according to the original powerpoint presentation leaked. The organization was meant to focus on the Top 7 corps: the ones are have recently proven to be consistently competitively successful and are assumed to be the biggest draws to performances 2) Carolina Crown IS a DCI Champion (1992 Div. II) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 ]Apparently you do not realize two vital things: 1) Last place teams within Professional Sports bring in zip as it applies to both revenue and fan support (look at the stands of a last place pro team home game and my point will be proven correct); That's generally true, though obviously there are exceptions (such as the Chicago Cubs & Red Sox, who have pretty full parks with poor teams). That being said, would your assertion not kind of reinforce what concerns of the G7? If corps like, say Pioneer (i.e. last place DCI WC corps), are brining in zip and not contributing much to the financial revenue of DCI, wouldn't they be a drain on the organization: sucking resources that could go to corps who bring more to the table (higher excellence in execution, more fans/gate revenue, more merchandise revenue, better show designs, etc)? Corps like Blue Devils & the revenue that they bring into DCI currently goes to help subsidize underachieving corps whom likely contribute next to nothing as far as fans in seats & merchandise sold. (FWIW, I'm not siding with the G7's egotistical rhetoric per say, more playing devil's advocate) and 2) The NFL, NBA, et al are professional adult performer-paid organizations in which there are major corporate sponsors which can float the last place teams during their slump of no fan revenue; and the G7 directors are delusional if they think their niche drum corps are anywhere close to that professional and corporate sponsor level. There's no denying that. However, if they've found a way to increase their revenue stream & exposure while providing MORE performance opportunities for their members & fans, then good for them. AGAIN, there is zero proof that indicates that the G7 corps intend to completely break off from DCI. For all we know they will still do the majority of DCI shows while running their Music in Motion (or whatever it's called) shows for extra revenue. Question: how much would it suck if the G7 corps did the bare minimum to be eligible to compete in DCI Championships and did mostly G7 shows, the larger DCI Regionals, and then Championships? I think one way to look at this, is like winter percussion/guard. Those units typically spend the bulk of their season performing in their local circuits (sanctioned by WGI buy subsidized & run by independent organizations), go to a few WGI Regionals to help meet WGI's requirements, and then travel to Dayton for Finals. I know this isn't the same philosophically, but it's at least similar. If the G7 corps do their own shows twice a week, DCI Regionals on Saturdays (or whatever evening), and then maybe a DCI local show during the week day, is that so wrong? I honestly don't know, just food for thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoSurfBass Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Are you sure about that? Sincerely, the Montreal Expos, Seattle Supersonics, LA Raiders & Rams, San Diego Clippers, etc... None of which folded, but were either moved or sold and then moved. There hasn't been a full blown fold (aka, the team ceases to exist in some form) for a long time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) That was apparently never the intention according to the original Powerpoint presentation leaked. The organization was meant to focus on the Top 7 corps: the ones are have recently proven to be consistently competitively successful and are assumed to be the biggest draws to performances. But as has been noted several times lately, the G-7 presentation can't be used as a reliable guide to the which corps the G-7 comprises, since it indicated that "permanent" status in that group would be achieved by corps that placed 8th three times -- which the Blue Stars promptly did. That said, I think it would be correct to say that since 2009, when the machinations began, the G-7 as currently constituted includes the seven most consistently successful corps. Just for fun, I've been playing with the numbers. If we take as minimum requirements for G-7 membership that a corps have been a finalist for some consecutive period of years --let's say, oh, seven years-- and have an average placement over that period of better than eighth, then this would have been the make-up of the G-7 through DCI's history (my seven-year Finalist requirement means no G-7 before 1978, of course). They are in order from best to worst placement average (a slash indicates a tie): 1978 - Vanguard, Stars 1979 - Vanguard, Scouts, Stars 1980 - Devils, Vanguard, Scouts, Regiment 1981 - Devils, Vanguard, Scouts, Lancers, Regiment 1982 - Devils, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts/Lancers 1983 - Devils, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, Lancers 1984 - Devils, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, Lancers, Spirit 1985 - Devils, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, Spirit, (Cavaliers) 1986 - Devils, Vanguard, Cadets, Scouts, Regiment, Spirit, Cavaliers 1987 - Devils/Vanguard, Cadets, Scouts, Regiment, Cavaliers, (Spirit) 1988 - Cadets, Devils/Vanguard, Scouts, Regiment, Cavaliers, (Spirit) 1989 - Vanguard, Cadets, Devils, Scouts, Cavaliers, Regiment, Suncoast 1990 - Cadets, Vanguard, Devils, Cavaliers, Scouts, Regiment, (VK) 1991 - Vanguard, Cadets, Cavaliers, Devils, Regiment, Scouts, Star 1992 - Cavaliers, Cadets, Vanguard, Devils, Star, Regiment, Scouts 1993 - Cadets, Cavaliers, Devils, Vanguard/Star, Regiment, Scouts, (Bluecoats) 1994 - Cadets, Cavaliers, Devils, Regiment, Vanguard, Scouts, (Bluecoats) 1995 - Cavaliers, Cadets, Devils, Regiment, Vanguard, Scouts, (Crossmen), (Bluecoats) 1996 - Cadets, Cavaliers, Devils, Regiment, Vanguard, Scouts, Crossmen, (Bluecoats) 1997 - Cadets, Devils, Cavaliers, Regiment, Vanguard, Scouts, Crossmen, (Bluecoats) 1998 - Cadets, Devils, Cavaliers, Regiment, Vanguard, Scouts, Crossmen, (Bluecoats) 1999 - Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, (Crossmen) 2000 - Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, (Crossmen) 2001 - Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Vanguard, Regiment, Scouts, (Crossmen), (Crown) 2002 - Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Vanguard, Regiment, (Crossmen) 2003 - Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers, Vanguard, Regiment, (Crossmen) 2004 - Cavaliers, Devils, Cadets, Vanguard, Regiment, (Crossmen) 2005 - Cavaliers, Devils, Cadets, Vanguard, Regiment, Crusaders 2006 - Cavaliers, Devils, Cadets, Regiment, Vanguard, Bluecoats, Crusaders 2007 - Cavaliers, Devils, Cadets, Regiment, Vanguard, Bluecoats, (Crusaders) 2008 - Cavaliers, Devils, Regiment, Cadets, Vanguard, Bluecoats, (Crusaders) 2009 - Devils, Cavaliers, Cadets, Regiment, Vanguard, Bluecoats, Crown, (Crusaders) 2010 - Devils, Cavaliers, Cadets, Regiment, Bluecoats, Crown, Vanguard, (Crusaders), (BK) 2011 - Devils, Cavaliers, Cadets, Regiment, Crown, Bluecoats, Vanguard, (Crusaders), (BK) 2012 - Devils, Cavaliers, Cadets, Crown/Regiment, Bluecoats, Vanguard, (Crusaders), (BK) (A corps appearing in parentheses is not a G-7 member by these standards, but is a seven-year finalist with an average of eighth place or lower.) So the G-5 have been particularly enduring: once in, Vanguard, Devils, Regiment, Cadets, and Cavaliers have never fallen out. However, if history is any guide, Bluecoats and Crown are wise to try claiming permanent status now, before they get displaced by someone else. Seven corps (not counting Star) over the years would have qualified, but then fell out, never to regain their position: Stars, Scouts, Lancers, Spirit, Suncoast, Crossmen, and Crusaders. (Boston would have to place fifth or better in 2013 to bring their seven-year average back under 8.00. Blue Knights couldn't improve their average enough even if they took first next year!) Natually, one could run the numbers all sorts of ways; as I said, I was just playing around. Edited November 30, 2012 by N.E. Brigand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Are you sure about that? Sincerely, the Montreal Expos, Seattle Supersonics, LA Raiders & Rams, San Diego Clippers, etc... I don't consider moving to another city folding...... even with a name change..... LOL, let's put the Rams back in Cleveland.... s/ guy who lives 3 miles from the Expos Nationals AA farm club.... Edited November 30, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) Even in situations like baseball (which really isn't comparable because of its riches), I'm confident in the belief that every minor league club is evaluated constantly for its ability to sustain itself without large-scale subsidies from its major league owner. HH Not 100% on baseball but for the AHL the parent club pays the salary for players under an NHL contract. AHL teams may have players under an AHL contract only (so paid by the minor league team) to fill out the team but some of the guys on the (AHL) ice have an NHL paycheck. And each minor league team is evaluated for it's ability to ready the players to go up to the parent club more than any local money aspect. Local AHL team has had more parent clubs than I can remember over the decades. Many switches took place because the NHL and AHL clubs had different systems and so "not a good match". (On Topic angle: IMO sport leagues have a better handle on how the minors fit into the overall picture and health of their activity than drum corps does.) Yeah, used to follow the local AHL club more than I followed drum corps... and the local is celebrating it's 75th year on the ice. PS.... funny thing is minor league baseball used to be a money losing thing. Then around the late 80s/early 90s people realized that the minors proved a lot of value for the smaller amount of money needed to attend (compared to the majors). Not sure how bad the econmy has affected things over the last few years but their value has gone up at a huge rate. Edited November 30, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 None of which folded, but were either moved or sold and then moved. There hasn't been a full blown fold (aka, the team ceases to exist in some form) for a long time. This is true, but it's undeniable that those teams were sold/moved BECAUSE they were losing money and draining the league of resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) This is true, but it's undeniable that those teams were sold/moved BECAUSE they were losing money and draining the league of resources. Not for all of them..... LOL sounds like "all those corps died off because of bad managment". For Baltimore Colts the owner (Robert "Mr Mayflower*" Irsey) wanted more out of the city in the way of money breaks and better stadium (I'm a former Colts fan). Think roughly the same for the original Browns going to Balitmore to become the Ravens but not sure of the details. For Raiders from Oakland to LA and back... God only knows what went on in Al Davis head :devil:/>/>/> (wifes a Raider fan). IOW - not being a drain but the owners found a better deal somewhere else...... *Mr Mayflower.... name of the moving company he used to transport the team to Indy at o dark 30. Local news couldn't get on the teams property but there was only one way to the Interstate from there. Every local news crew was there in the dark waiting to film the trucks leaving.... and my house could get the Bal-mer VHF stations (2, 11 and 13).. :sad:/> Edited November 30, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavies79 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 1) that was apparently never the intention according to the original powerpoint presentation leaked. The organization was meant to focus on the Top 7 corps: the ones are have recently proven to be consistently competitively successful and are assumed to be the biggest draws to performances 2) Carolina Crown IS a DCI Champion (1992 Div. II) Thanks for the insight. I do feel Madison should be in the G7. No matter their placement, they are always a huge fan favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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