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  1. 11 points
    For several years my delight with Drum Corps has been waning. My first experience with Drum Corps was in 2004 at the invitation of Dr. Thomas Root. It was electrifying for me. The sound had majesty, grace, and purity. I went to the souvenir trailers and purchased every CD I could lay my hands on. The quality of the recordings were much more variable than quality of the Corps on the field. None of the CDs were electrifying to me. Then for many years I endeavored to record all those elements, with various success. Along the way I provided yearly support for the Ogden Corps Encore Show. I recall clearly when I was faced with the first instance of canned show program, I was incredulous. In subsequent years the shows got even more canned and more amplified - rather than a race to have great musicians it was a race for expensive mixer boards, equalizers and speaker systems. As a side note there was also a race to incorporate props and scenery. During the last show in Ogden, I listened carefully - I was not electrified. I was electrified during some of the rehearsals that didn’t have the amplification running. It could be that there is a cumulative million+ hours of devotion within the members of a corps, and then all that majesty, grace, and purity is stuffed through a PA system. Now I have lost any interest in attending or supporting. I don’t like listening to amazing musicians through a vitiating PA system. Moreover I feel guilty about any of my efforts, donations, or support that subsidizes PA systems. It might be valid to compare the use of PA systems to steroid use, for my taste it sounds bad and feels like cheating. I sorrow for those million hours of musician devotion that I don’t hear with majesty, grace and purity. Ray Kimber, Ogden Utah
  2. 9 points
    See, there's so much you could have said without punching him in the nose in the process. Daggers are not necessary. He has his opinion - you've been trumpeting your incredulous attitude towards legacy fans for a long time. You're consistent, if nothing else. Your opinion is as valid as his, but he didn't jab you, personally, or anyone else in posting his feelings. I value his opinion more as a result. "The older you get, the smarter I'll get" said every father and "Legacy Fan".
  3. 9 points
    Every corps has a membership contract which is quite specific regarding things like bullying, harassment, poor behavior, hazing, controlled substances, etc. Even though the dreaded reefer is now legal in places like here in Maine, Massachusetts, etc it is still against federal law. Add to this the dimension of corps travelling through the night after each show and crossing through multiple jurisdictions, nobody could fault the organizations for having zero tolerance. As for alcohol, it is not a comparable situation because the drinking age in all 50 states is 21, so if a legal-age member wanted to have a beer on a free night that should pose no liability to the corps as long as there is no stupid behavior which results from it. I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express one night.
  4. 8 points
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on DCP...
  5. 7 points
    They're cool, and they're fun, and honestly, that's kind of why we do this whole thing. I'll miss seeing them. Mike
  6. 7 points
    I've not been on here for quite a while, but I've been following the discussion on this topic. I must agree with and bring up something Fran said: DCA had it's own vibe. He's right. I remember some DCA corps would say (occasionally) "we think we're good enough to compete with the DCI corps". Were they? I don't think so... not in that decade and certainly not in this decade. In the 1980's, a DCA corps didn't look or perform like a DCI corps. There were subtle differences. I learned this fact in an interesting way, back when Star of Indiana was competing. Somebody from Steel City Ambassadors in 1987 was marching with Star the following season. At the Centerville show, I tried to say hello (and not thinking) I walked right up to him, when he was in the horn arc. I was stopped by another member who said (and I quote) "He's in rehearsal now". Her delivery was brief and I might add, mildly arrogant. I walked away and said to myself, "this isn't DCA". I was right, too. There was a difference. You may enjoy the DCI corps, but at a respectful distance. They are after all, the top of the drum corps game; the professionals. DCA on the other hand, was the weekend warriors; loads of talent that made it possible to stage a quality show, entertain the audience and do it on a somewhat smaller budget. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no going back. DCA looks more and more like DCI, every year. They still can't compete against DCI corps, but DCI is what the young folks know. In that regard, DCI has the recognized brand identity and the marketing to support it. Something was lost, in the transition to what some have called "DCI Lite". Maybe what was lost is what Fran was alluding to: The connection with the audience, the personalities and the entertainers... the casual approach to the activity. Knowing who and what we were and more importantly, why we were that way. Those days have passed. Fill the corps ranks with young folks, design shows that appeal to them, give them the "DCI lite" experience for far less money and hope they stick around long enough to carry DCA on their shoulders. Perhaps the most telling wake up call I faced was this: There are members of our local DCA corps who weren't born when I won a DCA championship in 1996. The folks I marched with can be found in three places, during finals weekend: The alumni corps, the stands or the judging panel. Those few hearty souls that may be found in the ranks of a competing corps, deserve an award (or free chiropractor services) one or the other. I don't know if DCA will be around in five years. I don't know what needs to be done (beyond a strong marketing effort), to increase attendance. All I know is if people aren't buying your product at the volume you need to see in order to grow your business, you ought to take a closer look at what you're trying to sell.
  7. 6 points
    To: DCI Board of Directors From: Bill Hamilton, Ted Swaldo, Larry Hershman You alone hold the key to Pandora's Box and we pray for you to keep it locked! During the registration process at this year's January instructors' meeting, we received a lengthy proposal that, if adopted, would open the door for electronics. The proposal was written and presented by George Hopkins. As usual, the instructors were dazzled by the prospects of unlimited electronic amplification and voted yes. Because the rule changes were not distributed in advance, dialogue that included rebuttal was limited. We ask for your attention now. The lightly written, almost whimsical proposals use words and phrases such as "Geniuses devoting their skills to the world of marching music reaching for the sky in developing shows where the words of great Americans are magnificently amplified beyond belief..." While there can be some healthy debate about the inclusion of amplification and electronic enhancement in our activity (which frankly we are opposed to), that discussion is not the purpose of this letter. Buried deep in Mr. Hopkins' five-page proposal is perhaps the most telling acknowledgement of what this is really all about. George says: "One should plan $5,000-$10,000 to get into the game." And after you have paid your five to ten thousand-dollar entry fee, then what? We have contacted several companies, including Crystal Clear Sound and Clair Brothers (the most notable outdoor sound company on the east coast.) All agree that $10,000 buys almost nothing in professional audio. They further agree that being "on the road" with professional audio equipment requires trained personnel as well as substantial budgets for maintenance, specialized transportation, and back-up equipment. While no one could put a specific price tag on what would be a reasonably budgeted cost, a rough estimate of tens of thousands, not thousands, of dollars was the consensus to support amplification alone. More importantly they were unanimous in stating "the more money you spend, the better the sound." In addition, "in outdoor, free-air venues the costs to produce a high-quality sound are limitless." You may ask, "So what?" Well, bear in mind the person making this proposal (and probably some of his friends) already know, or have a good idea, where his electronics are coming from and who will pay for them. He knows who will pay for the audio engineer, he knows who will pay for the upgrades, he knows who will pay for the special transportation, the mixing boards, the microphones and the maintenance! Do you? Ask yourself...the last time you obtained new horns, what did you pay? What did Mr. Hopkins pay? Now take those facts and step onto the field of competition. The horns purchased by you or the horns provided to George are only as good as the people playing them. The playing field is level because the cost of horns is finite. Move now into electronics, where the cost is infinite, and the sound quality is determined by the sophistication and cost of the equipment and the proficiency of the audio engineers. Do you really want to compete in that forum? George makes another statement in his proposal, pointing out that he and a few others occupy a competitive results strata superior to your drum corps. Adopting his proposals will ensure that this never changes. If you're still considering the proposals of Mr. Hopkins, remember: HIS GAME IS PLAYED WITH A CHECKBOOK—NOT HIS OWN—BUT YOURS. For more than a decade the DCI Board of Directors has had the wisdom to defeat proposals dealing with electronics. We ask you to continue to protect the activity from unfair competition and not be fooled into opening the door to electronics. Pandora's Box is locked...let's keep it that way. Please Vote NO!
  8. 6 points
    I have been patiently and attentively reading every reply
  9. 6 points
    Ugghh! You just MAKE me want to correct you! EVERYONE else besides you can believe differently and you're STILL the only one in the room who's right. Right? But... Yes, of course. And it's judged and rewards points and sponsorship and demand from future MM's can determine success or failure. This is not artistic expression like Caravaggio or Bernini. Who's this? A distant cousin twice-removed, maybe, to this guy? (Don't hate me, I couldn't resist.) And thanks for being specific in your use of 'you'. That said, you miss the point. The Michelangelo or Caravaggio "Art" that people see today IS the art in its original form. Sure, each's artistic talent and maturity morphed in their lives, but fans still witness and experience it live, as the art was when it was created. I exaggerate for effect and point - I'm not interested in G-horns and carrying tymps at all. My point is that one can put Mr. Angelo () up against almost any modern artist and his work still holds up to judgement of peers and fans. Not so in drum corps, where all things older than last year are banished as too old to repeat, and increasingly, "down-rewarded" for NOT being avant-guard enough. You can't compare a '75, '85, '95, '05, or even '15 show to this year, "today's design". I've overdone my point. One simply can't compare "artistic expression" when it's rewarded real, tangible financial benefit for "designing to the sheets" now, can one? And especially so when one totals the potential financial gain that being a great designer can bring to the design process. Michelangelo wasn't "painting to the sheets" in the Sistine Chapel, was he? Performance art, yes. Maybe you meant that, and I'd agree with "Performance Art". In performance art, I appreciate all eras and I wish that the eras that I particularly like(d) were ABLE to be judged and rewarded as much as the current champion so I might have the chance again to see that design again. But, alas, I'm asked to ban my appreciation for older design to digital downloads while expected to pay significant sums to see current design only, and little else, stand a hooters chance in hel11 of contending for the financial gain of being a top-contender. The Arms Race of A&E, prop, design, staff, and tour expense all in the name of "A-E" is bankrupting corps, destroying the tour, and is unsustainable. (Do I have to say "IMO" on a forum board?) Excuses for "Artistic Expression" are the fodder of designers and, run amok, the activity can't keep up. The Artistic Expression that puts real, demise-level pressure on corps organizations to participate, and do it safely, only in the realm of a $750,000 (or TWICE THAT!) annual budget screams for someone to wrap duct tape around "Artistic Expression's" head and shut him up so the activity can catch its collective financial breath! How, in God's name, are any of the corps expected to build any sort of financial safety net when it takes every, single penny every year just to comply with what "The Sheets" are rewarding?
  10. 5 points
    When dudes treat women like objects for hundreds of years, your being offended at their putting women at the forefront of the activity is now secondary.
  11. 4 points
    Could be they're going to announce that they paid all their staff and suppliers for last year. One can hope, right?
  12. 4 points
  13. 4 points
    In the DCI News "5 Things we already know about the 2020 Madison Scouts" article in mentions in #5 ...." He also said that female interest in the first year that all genders will be able to audition for the corps is strong, slightly exceeding the average demographic of males vs. females across DCI corps." Is there a DCI link, or other public access link that shares the stats on this demographic? Sorry...too lazy to find on my own.
  14. 4 points
    no drum corps, electronics or not, could start up today on a shoestring budget. everything costs too much now, and not just the toys on the field.insurance, facilities, transportation....little is free anymore
  15. 4 points
    He already been there and done that with the Blue Knights. He even recorded that brass line with a special microphone setup on the DSD format. Absolutely stunning recording with ZERO compression and prodigious dynamics.
  16. 4 points
    As you may have guessed this is a photo of those drum majors present for the 85th Anniversary Memorial Mass. The current drum major is uniformed. Several of the others post here occasionally. When one sings the corps hymn, each corps member places his/her hand on the shoulder of the nearest member as a act of solidarity. If you watch when the corps members sing, they even shake each other's shoulder at a certain part of the hymn. Some have debated whether these men have been balanced, but all have agreed they have been extraordinary. P.S. Top photo is 1948 corps at Garfield Park for homecoming.
  17. 4 points
    Heck... I have a glass of water and I'm stopping two times in a two-hour trip. Drinking much better beer now. One or two is more than enough. Oktoberfests and pub walks excepted. The days of drinking Bud-Miller-Coors swill (and that is a charitable description) are long gone. What the heck was I thinking back then. LOL
  18. 4 points
    And years later... lot of people who like the current changes will gripe about the changes to come. If they are still around.... same as it every was.... same as it ever was...
  19. 3 points
    In my best Forrest Gump voice, "...so I just kept run-ning..."
  20. 3 points
  21. 3 points
    Be careful of what you wish for! Understand the pros and cons argument, just don’t believe there’s any real value to be added by allowing WW use unless there are limitations to how they are to be used. IMO initially the departure of legacy fans will be huge. Those departures will require new marketing to fill vacancies, not just for DCI regionals or championships either. Some local shows will feel it the most. Other than increases in revenue for instrument manufacturers it’s another incurred cost to organizations who already operate in the red. A impact study needs to be conducted from both fans and individual organizations prior to adoption of a proposal.
  22. 3 points
    Deadspin had actually a pretty good review of this proposal. MLB is coming from the stance that because of advanced training and technology they don’t need as many players going through the minors as before, and kind of ignores the whole baseball-as-entertainment aspect. For DCI, no matter what “popular perception” is Open Class isn’t a formal feeder system for World Class. OC has a tremendous number of retained members and age outs too. Kids may move on to other bigger corps, but if nothing else, competitive results show there is considerable overlap between the divisions. Mike
  23. 3 points
    We I believe are most of us involved in the activity today. WE, as in most bitd , including me felt we were so superior and made fun of the band geeks, learned 1st hand where our bread was buttered starting in the late 80s early 90s. Our own snobbery wasn't helpful, respectful or true by then. If you want to define major league is another thing. It is our branding BUT there are some corps that would not be considered that if we actually put some guidelines or parameters attached to that assessment or branding. There was also another side to this . Many band directors felt Drum Corps ruined serious music students and some forbid their students or tired , who wanted to march drum corps. Im sure there are still some of them today as there are some who still feel superiority within the many facets of our activity somehow actually makes them superior and have the right to look down on this so called other world that actually feeds ours. JMO
  24. 3 points
    This, and what Jim said. Not a huge fan of some of the stuff going on with modern-day drum corps... but hey, it's a different era, different game. Overall, still a fan. If that ever changes, I hope I go out with the class shown by the OP here.
  25. 3 points
    Looks like a good weekend in Cadetland. Nice video in article. https://yea.org/news/homecoming-hall-fame-recap?fbclid=IwAR3o3nVfpGFj7CxcRZFLtxdf2k6dUIzGIsrrnJi55SYioJ_Sq2Haa1fVigY
  26. 2 points
    You rebel, you! I'm sure you probably had to suffer the wrath of what people now call "old timers" telling you that 2 valves wasn't a real soprano as well. I'm so glad I wasn't a horn player. I'm pretty sure I would have said something like "You blow air into it and it makes noise...pretty much the same thing as it always was."
  27. 2 points
    always pick #4 in the 4th. Westshore drummers will smile
  28. 2 points
    STILL one of my favorite Crown shows. Just. Excellent.
  29. 2 points
    So what's basically coming out of all of this discussion is that no college venue is going to be feasible due to football schedules, unless DCA gives up Labor Day weekend. Gotta say that leaves very few options...
  30. 2 points
    I know in 88-91ish, DCA ran shows out of the NE...I performed in the Chicago and Dayton shows in 1989. there were more people in the corps on the field than in the stands.
  31. 2 points
    And there ya go. No one has to worry now about anyone being taken advantage of
  32. 2 points
    Not counting extra points... what are the numbers of the first three Notre Dame touchdowns in any season? 6-6-6. I rest my case.
  33. 2 points
    Their inclusion won’t make them better either. For these WW kids that apparently want to be in Drum Corps so bad, why can’t they learn how to play a different instrument. I did, and so did others. It’s not that hard if you’re motivated
  34. 2 points
    " And the sultan's elite bands were known as the janissaries. " And, as the story goes, one of these bands was sent by the Turks as a gift to Napoleon, who loved pageantry, and thus began the tradition of military marching bands in Europe, and eventually in the good ol' US of A. Mark time, hut!
  35. 2 points
    You are making an assumption that economics is driving Ray's decision to leave. Yes he recorded the Blue Knights years ago, but he has more recordings that go beyond Drum Corps that are excellent and have sold. Releasing a recording on the SACD format is not going to make you wealthy, so you better love what you record more as much as the money you make from it. As a sound engineer and mixer, I record stuff because I love the sound of the instruments, the music, and the talent behind them both. Half the stuff I have recorded was not for sale, and the other half would barely make a profit. No need to go into his motivation because he already stated what his motivation was for leaving....it is clear. I understand his motivation for leaving, and cannot fault Ray one bit for it. I also cannot fault anyone who continues to enjoy what they are seeing on the field. Everyone has a line in the sand for what they will support, and that line is different for different people. We need to respect lines, not criticize them - we are not all the same, or have the same taste. For some it was amplification of the pit. To others it was the added sound effects, live voice, or the run from set to set and bark. I hated the addition of live solo voices and the lack of drill, but that has not chased me away. Woodwinds would absolutely be my line.
  36. 2 points
    That is what the parents of brass, percussion and guard do now. What is the issue adding WW? Plus, kids already ask their parents for double that much for other summer music activities, that can also be done at their HS or college.
  37. 2 points
    Yes, I can because marching bands have been doing it for more than a century. I can imagine the chills now of a stirring, perfectly executed, company front made entirely of flutes. That’ll get the blood moving.
  38. 2 points
    so what are the lessons to be learned by everyone else? Oh I know, i've said it before. first don't be adding bodies all summer. Have your show designed in the winter and get the material to the performers as soon as you can so they can learn it. Don't teach it at camp, clean and refine and mold it at camp. have your #### ready the first show. They are deep cleaning in June while many others are still teaching drill.
  39. 2 points
    AMEN!..ahhh those good ole days...lol Lets also not forget accountability with judging or opinions of the actual corps. Yeah hard to see why DCI was formed..lol🙈🙉🙊
  40. 2 points
    If the activity stayed the same as it was in the 1970's, we wouldn't be talking about this today. In fact, there wouldn't be a DCP or Drum Corps World! As much as older people want it to be that way, if the change didn't come when it did (2 valve, three valve, Bb, electronics) then we wouldn't be talking about drum corps! Be gratetful that we can still be here to talk about the activity and reminisce. As much as I love hearing the old shows, the sounds that these kids today produce are so much better!
  41. 2 points
    He who dies with the most toys wins or last one still standing wins? Ugh
  42. 2 points
    If we could combine the downtown Williamsport atmosphere (safe streets, several good places to eat/drink, etc.) with the Rochester stadium, and no hill, we might have a winner. Then again... if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a car.
  43. 2 points
    As has been the case going back pre-DCI. So nothing new there.
  44. 2 points
    I’ll file it under people complaining about people complaining..... lol
  45. 2 points
    Yeah... sorry 'bout that, bit of an inside joke. I knew Mike, Terri, and Jim would know who I was talking about. Tony Schlecta was the guy who ran the VFW Nationals drum corps championship for many years. He also was the announcer a number of those years... and had a tendency to, shall we say, imbibe a bit while doing the PA work. So... as the show went on, his announcements became more and more interesting. LOL.
  46. 1 point
    <insert checkered jacket joke here>
  47. 1 point
    Does improvement with bunting here mean it is the guard tech's work or the costume designers???
  48. 1 point
    You answered your own assertion. Drum and Bugle corps used to be different because of instrumentation. Yes, it was a type of marching band but different in a very unique way. Just like a Drum and Fife Corps err marching band or bagpipes. When there is NO difference WHY get butt hurt over calling it a marching band now? Seriously, DCI is just a circuit of marching bands. What used to be true is not any longer. Word games do not change the facts. Just like you could point to the Marine Drum and Bugle corps and SEE and HEAR a distinct difference. This whole mindset that there are no differences and never have been is well...insane and lacks any real facts to support itself in realities. I don't really care but the idea that we can't have subsets of criteria to differentiate sub-species of a greater whole IS asinine. I can't even imagine living life where you couldn't do that...and have a firm grasp on reality.
  49. 1 point
    Ah, to be forever seventeen. You are certainly well past marching age. You’ve dodged the question before. But did you ever march? Please take the time and go back to when I’ve criticized the “younger generation”and show me an example. I have expressed a dislike for what currently passes as show design but I’ve never criticized any marching members for their efforts. In the meantime I request you refrain from taking such broad strokes with your psychoanalyst’s paintbrush.
  50. 1 point
    JD Shaw’s headshot could not look creepier
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