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Any time I see posts in these threads about the benefits of amplification because now the pit can play with "correct concert technique", I have to scratch my head a little. Is anyone under the illusion that anyone else in the corps is playing with "correct concert technique"? When the horns are playing at triple-blastissimo, when I'm watching the snare drummers start a stroke with the butt-end of the stick two inches above the brim of their shakos--none of that smacks of "correct concert technique" to me. That doesn't bother me, though, as I'm not watching an indoor concert, I'm watching an outdoor marching ensemble. I would expect the technique to be different, the equipment to be different, darn near everything to be different, because the venue and the activity are different. Does anyone think that a modern marching snare has anywhere near the sound quality of a good concert snare? To me they sound atrocious--on their own--but perfectly suited to the situation they were designed for. I guess I never minded the "bang away" pits from back in the day, just like I never minded loud, occasionally raucous hornlines or stick-above-your-head drumline closers--I assumed those things were done for the purpose of producing an effective, outdoor, fill-up-the-stadium sound called drum and bugle corps.

Thanks for clarifying the fair/unfair conundrum that seemed to be in your previous post. I believe in the fairness and equity I see in DCI competition because I've been around it for so long and have known so many of the judges for decades, personally and professionally, that I just can't have what I perceive to be a jaundiced attitude about placements. I also believe it's not that I believe in the impartiality of the system because I contribute to DCI, but rather that I contribute to DCI because I believe in the impartiality of the system. I have enough dignity and self-respect that I couldn't be involved with any organization I believed was inherently unfair to kids. What you view as BooWorld, I view as reality, but with more cheese. (That's a reference to the General Off-Topic forum, for those that don't venture there.) Part of what you view as "RealWorld" I view as CynicWorld. But as you already presented, we disagree. All good. As for "assuming excellence is equal, how does one decide," I would offer that excellence is not equal. When it comes down to the numbers, some corps are just better in what they do than others in any particular year. And it's that realization of unequal quality that results in some corps getting higher scores than others. Being a judge is not easy work. To delve so deeply into a production and its performance qualities in order to present an appropriate score is not only an extreme challenge requiring much training, it can also be terrifying. I prefer to sit in "BooWorld" and enjoy each show for its entertainment and awe value...It would be a major challenge for me to focus on one particular caption and give it a specific score and then wait until I saw the recordings of the show to see what I missed by having such a forced, limited focus all season. I salute the judges for their sacrifice in doing so. While they get paid to do what they do, the only ones working harder at the shows are the corps members themselves.

You do have your moments of keen insight. Of course, it's easier said than done. But there are three things I'd suggest right away that could help: 1. Make an effort to judge effect and balance from where the fans are, not just from the press box. 2. Remove sheet verbage that mandates equipment choices. As an example, the criterion on the ensemble music sheet that requires a corps to "demonstrate musical appropriateness of amplification" makes it clear that to earn full credit in that caption, one must use amps. 3. End the practice of rewarding all positive effects of new equipment while overlooking technical problems and malfunctions (i.e. the "free pass"). Judge the result on all the pluses and minuses.

i'll always be impressed by what kids do in dci, even if i don't continue to like the direction the activity is going.

Since to me they are all the same, using examples as I do works just fine for me. Hopefully DCI will permit any instruments to be used someday. You are free to not read what I post if you so choose. Doesn't matter to me.

Even with my little band we mic the marimba and vibes, and are able to get a much rounder and full sound by being able to use softer mallets than the rock-hard ones we used before. It's really night and day...our first two shows this year we did not have the mics ready for the mallets, and the marimba sound was much harsher and less resonant with the mallets we had to use. Once we got the mics set up and changed the mallets, the sound was MUCH better.

Elementary level? Marching percussion? I doubt you'll find very many elementary programs focusing on that. Or are you referring to percussion in general? Our music program has plenty of percussionists...just very few who choose to do marching band. Maybe TS is the same way. BTW...don't assume that the HS director has anything at all to do with what the lower grades do with their programs...in my district each level is 100% independent.

I know this, drum corps has always been a distinct "type" of marching band. So, what makes Drum Corps "unique" from a brass marching band again?

I know little about TS other than how great they are, but I doubt they are 'slighting' any students education as percussionists. The band I work with has had a year where we had only pit percussion. Why? Not enough kids to fill both pit and battery. Our MB is a volunteer program that takes a lot of time between rehearsals and performances. We just don't get a lot of support from parents or from the middle school directors when it comes to the marching band. There are 150 in concert bands and 300 in orchestras, yet we march only between 30-35 musicians right now. The year we had just a pit (of about 7 or 8) we told the two kids who did want to march to recruit more drummers...and they did, so reinstalled the battery the next year. This year, we only had 3 full-time pit, so the battery actually marched about half the show and played in the pit for half, because the show music I arranged made the most sense that way.

I think you should re think your statement, talent has very little to do with the ability to read music. Buddy Rich didn't read music, would you say he didn't understand his instrument. There are plenty of cats who could read the hell out of a chart but had the timing of a rock and therefore didn't accomplish much.

There's another aspect that we seldom discuss. That is how good programming highlights good performance (and perhaps hides flaws). Cavies are among the best at this, designing their programs so that your eyes naturally focus where the program is peaking. Cadets 09 was an unfortunate example of the opposite; excellence in marching and playing was offset by an overly busy program which didn't give adequate opportunity to maximize appreciation. This isn't just an audience issue. It's a judging issue too. The judges can't see everywhere. Like the audience, they focus sequentially. The program that maximizes appreciation deserves reward. This is among the reasons why I'm okay with programming factoring into the judging. Not only is it fundamental to our enjoyment of the activity, it's highly preferable to the alternative. I don't want to see every corps marching the same show. Or worse, I don't want to reduce the shows to a series of common exercises in order to get competitive equity. HH

I would not be surprised if this happens. I actually feel this happens in Championship and Olympic figure skating. BTW....I don't agree with this method of judging (if it does occur). The system doesn't say anything about having to prove or outperform.... If you perform better....you should score better....and place higher. To me...the best change they can make to the judging system is....take points away from the most subjective areas and place these points in the technical captions/sub-captions

(flame retardant suit on) I am going to respectfully disagree on this. I still believe that the corps "name" influences the judges, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. If you put the top 12 corps on a field on Finals night, with a panel of judges that didn't know what the corps' programs were, announced them as "Corps A, Corps B", etc. and the kids performed in shorts and tee shirts, I would be willing to bet that the outcome would be different than what it was. The same goes for almost any show during the season. During the course of any season, we sometimes may see two, three or even four corps that could switch placement on any given night if competing head to head. Usually by the time the week before Finals, one begins to pull away and the rest are fighting for position among the next x number of positions. Occasionally, there is a "surprise" during the championships, but it's usually a case of one of the top two or three leapfrogging over another. How many times have you seen a "6th" or "7th" place corps beat one of those top corps? It's not possible that earier in the season, one of the top corps has a really "off" night, and one of those lower tier corps has the show of their lives? To give an example, for the past few years, when DCI's schedule comes out, I look up the "local" shows to see what the dates are and who's performing in it. At that time, I tell my wife what the order of finish will be-and I have been pretty much spot on-before the corps have even had their audition camps! I am certainly no musical expert, but if I can predict the outcome 7 or 8 months before the corps even hit the field, I have to believe that there is some aspect of slotting happening with the judges-intentional or not. All of this is, of course, IMHO. FWIW, I have enjoyed some of the programs and performances from corps 13 and lower more than those of the top corps. Maybe we should just do away with the scores, judges, save some money, and let the corps just play!

That suspension lasted for two years, so they were cleared by the time this game came around. Just as long as they don't do anything again. It's good to see though how stiff of a punishment people will put on band kids, but still give convicted criminals Heisman trophies......

I've always imagined that if we let corps do what they want then corps will do things that please audience members. Maybe not all of them at the same time but each audience member will all be happy and upset equally. So what if Cadets decide to use singing, string quartet and 100 props on the field? Because that would then be counteracted by say... Madison getting rid of the synth and microphones and doing a show without a theme. People DO like either of these things so they should both be available. Frankly, whatever is stopping that kind of variety in drum corps is what we should really be trying to fix. And if you ask me, its ALL in the judging... What we should stop assuming is that one version of drum corps should exist. Instead, figure out how to get all the different "versions" of drum corps to work with each not against each other.

I marched 4 years in drum corps aging out in 09 with Blue Stars. I don't really remember much rivalry, though in each group I marched in we had certain groups we saw as being our direct competition. At Blue Stars it seemed to be Boston, but we hardly had a rivalry with them. Though I will say there is a lot of animosity between Colts and Blue Stars stemming from Colts making finals in 07 and not in 08. The Colts have repeatedly suffered from bad design despite the fact they are talented performers, and I think the kids just felt "why them and not us." Though this was mostly a brass thing, colts and blue stars colorguard are kind of indifferent to each other... The most intense rivalry I remember was when I marched Jersey Surf in 07: Surf vs. Spartans! I'm still bitter about them beating us at div II finals even though we won high brass and percussion!

I wonder how they got the rights to that Madison piece.

Is it just another variant of the Bill Holman arrangement as used in Madison '96, Blast!, etc.? Obviously each has their own tweaks (intro, solos, percussion, etc.). I'm curious as to how close TCU's rendition was to Don Hill's take on the arrangement for the Cadets.

Do you only watch shows from the press box? Funny - that's precisely what the amps do. Now that's not even true. Pit sounds pre-2004 ran the gamut of tonalities, and the recordings are the best place to find proof of that due to the advantage most pits enjoy in proximity to the recording mics. We had all those things before. This is simply a cop-out. It was never necessary to bang instruments senselessly, without proper technique. If you can't hear one, use two. If you can't hear two, try three. Balance has always been an issue of choosing the correct number of each instrument voice (until amps came along). Your post shows the press-box mentality that was applied in invoking this change. Because certain subtleties could not be easily heard upstairs, they had to be electronically amplified. Well, guess what? There are many subtleties that can't be easily heard upstairs. Sound clarity deteriorates over distance for a variety of reasons. But never mind that....so that GE judges can hear a single Udu drum, or every one of the 40 mallets, we amplify the pit and in the process submerge all the brass subtleties for the vast majority of the audience - those who are not in the nosebleed seats.

This over engineering of drumcorps, (G-8) and imposed classification, does not bode well for the activity..Already there is animosity what with the subjugation of non G8 corps. What is the incentive for them to be the lackeys of what in reality are the privledged organizations. May be totally wrong, but all I can see down the road for some corps is lack of interest on the part of supporters, volunteers, and those that contribute money. The only way for these other corps to regain a positive identity, is to go their own way and to shed to mantle of inferiority that has been brought about by the greed of the self annointed so called G8.

eh, it's possible to be impressed by something even it if doesn't fit your aesthetic tastes. not trying to be pc or anything. but thanks for the comment. :)

This is one of the most articularly well-spoken bits of PC drum corps-ism I've ever heard. Well said, Lance. I agree 100%.

Yes. All of it. Old School and New school. I am always impressed at both.

I had been out of the arena for quite some time prior to attending shows again this previous season, and while there are some aspects of modern Drum Corps that don't completely appeal to me, I admit I was indeed very impressed. Crown has one of the most beautiful horn lines I've ever seen, Cavs guard was simply amazing, and yes, Blue Devils left me stunned for several minutes... I was completely blown away. Impressed? Hell yeah - and mighty eager to see this coming season!

MikeD-19,839 Posts Mello Dude-648 Posts Also, your media without restrictions or "uniqueness", is what we in the world call marching band.

Scientifically. HH

....loud is not always better ;) while outstanding, you could definitly hear some brass issues, especially during their endzone to endzone drill. and remember the field judge may hear some things that we might not have picked up on. just like if we watch a show on dvd 100x we might notice mistakes visually that the judges didnt catch cuz they were lookin at somethin else and we watched the same thing over and over.

Visually definitly agree with Cavies over Bluecoats in every subcaption. And agree with the judges having Cavies in percussion by .20, if the spread were anymore i may have disagreed with them. Musically, the judges had the scores so close to one another(a tenth or two) i dont think that they were the game changer. The visual subcaptions are what gave the Cavies their higher placement. Even if you dont like the Cavaliers or Mad World, you have to agree with me that visually those men performed that show amazingly. AND if you dont agree with me try watchin the DVD again, look at their attention to detail.

yes

Other than the fact that competition location biases the results, as well as contingent of each corps' supporters in the audience, I agree with that statement. Find a way to get around those two things and I'm sold.

Musically focused show designs with popular and easily recognized musical selections.

Such a great business model.

Just like most shows, it took 4 views to understand. ( but you left out the mirrors )

what is this I don't even

Out of how many DCA corps there are, that's barely any. How many used them at DCA Finals this year? Two?

Barely any DCA corps use G bugles.

Going out on a limb here but I reckon that most fans want more of this... And less of this... WE DONT NEED SYNTHS AND AMPS TO REPLACE LOW END BRASS!!! Oh and while I am on me soapbox... Kudos to Madison for making Old School cool again... Here's hoping others may follow Are you listening Spirit, Bones, George and Wayne? I desperately hope so....

That's a nice opinion you got there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least you are reasonable in your tone

I would suggest reading The G Bugle: History and Identity by Peter Bond. Very insightful.

I think he was talking about the back stands.

What? I discovered drum corps a few years ago.

no miked brass syntesizers used tastefully (there was one corps with THREE, i forget who) Hopkins retires sigh.... i can dream

- Brass limited to bell-front bugles in the key of G - No electronic or otherwise non-acoustic sounds - Musically focused show designs - Judging split of 65% musical, 35% visual - Appropriate guard uniforms - Everything else roughly the same

I agree with the position that in the grand scheme of things, what is said on this board is not all that important. I'd tell people not to sweat it. As for kids having to " put up with awful comments ", I might remind folks that kids at a similar age are not only hearing " awful comments " daily ( like..." we are going to kill you ") but they are subjected to war zone incoming mortar fire, road side bombs, sniper fire, suicide bomber attacks from out of nowhere, blood and gore, and unspeakable conditions in gawdawful sickening places that haunts the mind. DCI, by contrast,... is Summer Music and Dance Camp. Any participant should be able to handle a contrarian view expressed from time to time. These kids are lucky and fortunate beyond belief to be doing what they are doing at their age in the summer. And lets not forget what allows them the continued freedom and liberty to " put on a show for YOU " in the summer. ( ' Just wanted to add perhaps some needed perspective on all this. )

Exactly. And for what you said about members, it goes double for staffers and quadruple for staff over 40, designers, and directors. All of that aside, the biggest reason I hang around here is to hear the latest news, find out who's playing/doing what, how everyone's doing, etc. But the corps themselves are doing a better job now than even five years ago of communicating with press releases on their own websites, and members, volunteers, etc. are flat out told not to post show stuff/news on DCP as the corps like control of when their information is released to the masses (not a bad thing). So from the day after finals until the first competitive show of the season, we as a community revert back to the same ol' arguments as usual, thus diminishing the validity of this place even further. It's kind of a Catch 22: if there was more legit stuff to talk about, this place would be more legit. But because corps are more tight lipped than they used to be, there's not a lot of legit stuff to talk about this time of year and we instead turn to arguing about what 'real' drum corps is, thus making this place look ridiculous to the people currently marching/teaching/designing/directing drum corps.

I'm all for respecting opinions, but something feels a bit off about what something "is" or "isn't, being defined by individual opinion. N.E. Brigand's comment was spot on really. You're kind of wanting to say that there is NO definition to what drum corps is, and I find that to be way off base. If drum corps loses it's unique defining qualities, then it isn't drum corps anymore, regardless of what you call it. What if we remove every brass and percussion instrument from the field, dress the 150 up in uniforms and have them sing the parts while marching the drill. Still drum corps? I guess based on your "opinion" it IS, as long as at least 1 person is of the opinion that it is. Really all you've done is create a clever little bullet point you can pull out to throw in the face of every "this isn't drum corps" argument that is presented.

I'm pretty sure those are both unamped (correct me if I'm wrong). Try doing '04 vs. '05.