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There's nothing on this sheet that shouldn't already be covered by the GE sheets. Yet Mason felt it worthwhile to submit the proposal. Why? Because he wants to give his corps an unfair advantage? I don't think so. IMO it's clear: he feels the interpretation of the GE Sheets is broken no amount of judge "re-training" is going to fix it the only way around those two items is create a new caption What was the intent of the GE sheets anyway? To reward shows that "work", that successfully connect with and entertain audiences. It's the opposite viewpoint of "excellence for excellence's sake". Not only must you be good, you must package your 'good' in such as way that the audience is willing to consume it. Does this place boundaries on design? Absolutely. You can be as deep and intellectual as you want so long as you don't lose your audience's attention along the way. Ultimately that's what entertainment is: something that grabs and holds your attention. It does not imply "schlock". It does not require cookie cutter shows. It does require that you take the audience along with you on your journey through the show.

I was taught by Sly Sybilski and Chris Alexander, two former Cavaliers, both of whom have taught DCI champion corps, so I think they know what they were doing. I've marched for 4 years, two in SCVC and two in SCV. We march fully "to the dot". You do not look at the form at all. you go to your spot. If the guy next to you is wrong, then he's wrong. It's not your responsibility to worry about the people around you. Thanks for assuming you're better than people whom you know nothing about. Maybe not everyone in DCI wants to win. Maybe they're actually there are members who do it for the experience, not the ring.

It's bad enough when you're right. Even worse when I agree with you. Knock it the heck off...

I didn't say "top" priority in my post. I just said "priority" And based on the show's I've seen in 2010, 2009, 2008, I would say that a great number of corps (almost all of them) try to appeal to audience as well as the sheets! People think about BD 2010 and suddenly think "Corps don't care about the audience, they are writing to the judges!" But honestly even last year I thought, Blue Coats, Cavies, Cadets, Boston, BK, Blue Stars, heck... most of the top 12 and a lot of the lower tier corps DID design for the audience and DID put it as "one" of their priorities. You and most people like you try to Exaggerate a problem that designers aren't catering to the audience because they currently don't have a requirement to do so. The lack of a requirement does not mean that they aren't appealing to the audience. Sometimes we have to know that designers are not infallible. Sometimes they just create un-entertaining shows because they didn't get their #### together. I agree that a discussion about this is good, but ONLY a discussion. Judging Entertainment will ruin the judging system that's supposed to be based on technical merits. GE already somewhat messes this up because its judged poorly, but obviously you think putting a more subjective catagory in the judging system would FIX the entertainment problem... I Disagree. Imagine all the shows that would not have existed if designers had this entertainment caption like a gun at their back. Designers will be less risk takers, they will just put together songs that "work" or had a history of "working" like Madison did. It's a bit extreme to say but I think Madison didn't take much risk in show design last year. THey just did what "worked" and that was "good enough" to achieve the reaction they wanted. BD took a HUGE risk in show design, unimaginably so, and they pulled it off. While Madison was instantly "entertaining" it in no way compared to the risk taking that BD did. BD "may not have" thought about the audience but maybe in indirectly they were. THey were designing a show in a way that shows were always designed in the past. They took risks, they didn't just display drum corps like it had always been, they took it to a different level, it may not have been as well received as Madison, but that corps pulled off something unworldly. And even though BD wasn't my favorite show I feel terrible that a proposal like this would basically limit the ingenuity and risk taking that BD 2010 displayed under the idea that it "might" not be entertaining.

Sorry if that was unclear. I'm not saying that there was an automatic penalty before five or so years ago. I'm saying that the Entertainment Effect caption would create an automatic penalty for risky designs because they're not mainstream. I think "what changed" is that designs got dramatically deeper. Take, for example, BD shows over the last few years (regardless of whether you liked them). They really are designed like an onion. On first viewing, you're only gonna get the first layer. Sadly, a lot of fans think that's it and never watch it again. Even to this day, when I watch BD 2010 I find something new or hear something different that I'd never caught before. That's the sign of a deep design. My intellectually curious mind eats that up, but I understand that a lot of fans don't like that. I'd argue that when you go back 5, 10, or 20 years, you don't see the same level of design depth. Pretty much everything is obvious and put right in front of you. By the third viewing, you've got all there is to "get" in the show. The first attempt to design in depth was using narration to tell a more complex story, but it was a 10 ton hammer that most people didn't like. A few corps have recently figured out to do this without talking and I think it's working really well. I'm not trying to say that a shallow or deep design is better, in fact I'm sure a lot of people on this board probably hate deep designs. But I think it's an interesting trend and one that's bringing a lot of creativity to the activity. Let's not kill that off before we see where it takes us. Uh, you just proved my point? Academy Awards are given out by trained professionals who know what to look for, and reward creativity, talent, and flawless execution. Movie audiences are fickle, untrained, and can have their opinions influenced by the amount of butter in their popcorn. The Entertainment Effect caption would effectively give movie audiences substantial control over Academy Awards, which is think is a moronic idea. They can still claim "top box office revenues", akin to the Fan Network fans choice award. Uh, ok, sure why not. Revenue from shows is such a minuscule part of any corps operating budget that I can't see this making any real change in anything.

This is not accurate. The intent of the caption -- it's purpose if you will -- is to reward shows which involve and engage the audience -- in other words : entertain. The fact the you see the actual word so little in the sheets has nothing to do with the intent of the caption. The rest of the verbiage attempts to decompose entertainment value into smaller, quantifiable terms. But what's supposed to be measured is - in fact - entertainment. We've been over this ground before. Read the sentences at the top of the sheet. It's ALL about the audience. What's happened with this caption is that the decomposition has become uncoupled from the intent. By satisfying decomposed terminology on the page you can effectively ignore the intent of the caption. If drumcorps were to be judged on proficiency and excellence alone, the effect captions should simply be removed. The unfortunately foreseeable consequence is: shows no one except the most die hard fan will appreciate and the effective end of the activity. A performing arts genre that ignores it's audience ceases to be a performing art. It's intellectual masturbation. It may still be art. It may be high quality fine art. There may be people who appreciate it. But the audience is not part of the equation. A performing art is about communicating with your audience .

I think the go to jail space should be "Overage member! Disqualified this year" or even better "Stuck explaining what drum corps is. Go directly to the explaining square." with the card being "Came across someone who watched 'Drumline' go directly to the explaining square. Do not pass (whatever it is) do not collect $200" Maybe just take the top 22 corps and the last one in the "Go" space that says something like "Pioneer! Building funds Collect $200" I figure DCI.org sells the board with chance, money, community chest, and utility cards. To complete your set you have to buy the rest of the deed cards from corps. The corps out of the top 22 sells Railroad or utility cards so they get a little more money to help them earn their own deed card. The pewter pieces you collect are your choice but the set's worth the most is you have all 23 pewter pieces. Houses and hotels can be replaced with tour buses and schools. The utilities could be food truck and equipment trailer. Railroads are 4 big event venues. Although now with the new way finals are done top 12 isn't necessarily world class.

I mentioned this in the thread about souvenirs: Instead of a "Go to jail" spot on the board, we could have a "Miss one show" spot, or even a "Your corps is disqualified for the season" Chance card. Instead of collecting railroads and utilities, we could collect World Championship seat upgrades and Prize Patrol items. PS: Chance cards… One of your speakers blew a cone. Give $200 to bank for repairs. Your synth is always doubling the tubas. Aesthetic fine of $50 with a one point bonus awarded in Music Effect. Your show is clearly derivative. Go to jail. Do not collect $200. Your guard costumes are too skimpy. Lose a turn while a guard member's grandmother scolds you. All your drum corps recordings will be re-engineered to reflect the acoustics of the demolished RCA Dome. You have been good. Have a monster sno-cone at J. Birney Crum Stadium. You have been bad. Climb the hill at J. Birney Crum Stadium on your knees. You have been very, very bad. Give your coffee to George Hopkins. Instead of collecting railroads, which aren't making money anyhow, collect souvenir items that won't sell. (We can have lots of fun with this. Suggestions?) Instead of collecting the two utilities, collect your two most favorite stadiums for drum corps, whatever they are.

My biggest gripe with their show this year was musically. And oddly enough, they've been getting some play on the iTunes. Can't explain it. But the disjointedness of the show draws me in somehow. CURSE YOU BD!!! :::shakes fist:::

Suggestions please for what to include in a Drum Corps version of Monopoly i.e. chance/community chest cards, “street names”, utility names, station names, taxes etc. Here are some of the suggestions made in the “Souvie Sensation” thread… Chance cards… Your new uniform adds 5lbs to guard members; Michael J Cesario fines you $20. Your last drill move was almost as good as Cross to Cross, collect $50 from the bank. Instead of a "Go to jail" spot on the board, we could have a "Miss one show" spot $$$ could be replaced by points, the player/corps with the highest point total wins the game. Instead of train stations we could have famous venues like Allentown or Camp Randal etc. Perhaps instead of houses & hotels we could have box 1-5 point multipliers… 1 house moves you to box2, 2 houses move you up into box3 etc. Have an annual edition based on the previous season’s placements which will instantly make each game unique and therefore a collector’s item. Each corps sells their own deed cards for let’s say $1 each. Straight away that's a $23 investment just to get your cards. In a similar vein, the corps could sell pewter playing pieces that look like their corps logo. Perhaps even silver or gold logos for the mandatory “deluxe” edition that is sure to be released on the back of the standard editions success…. Finally, I said in the previous thread that due to their being 23 corps in WC, you’d need to be creative with how the 22 names/8 colours matched up with today’s WC corps. However, if the game was a Tour of Champions edition…… solves one problem, creates a whole new one!

What years did you march SCV wc/div1? *** I never said that I never had any good experiences with the corps. I learned that Kennedy had more than one shooter, and was shot from the grassy knoll. I am now 100 % convinced of that. As a former student of Larry Sneed I look forward to telling him why. I got to go back to Niagara Falls, and take the maid of the mist ride for the first time since I was a child. I got to go bowling, and swiming , and do a lot of fun stuff like eating @ Bill's in San Antonio. I got to go back to a lot of places I remember like Madison, Naperville and Allentown. I got to reunite with dc friends that I had not seen in years like Tim Meals. I got to spend time with a lot of DCI big shots. I also got to spend 4 days at a flying J near Marion Ohio. Unbelievable was that when bus 60 broke down for the second time at a weight station, the Officer who greeted us once marched in the Glassman. A Pio start in the right direction would be a few things like this: Ausie Hats Properly maintained buses or chartered buses w/ better maintained semi's / trailers. Staff with a history of marching in and or teaching top 12 DCI WC, perhaps with a pc with a history of marching in and or teaching in a first place DCI wc corps. For the brass more time spent working on the show w/ less time playing "church hymns" multiple run thru's before a show instead of just one a day build dorm @ the land to buy the corps more rehersal time

Which makes perfect sense from design....BD was in it to WIN Scouts were in it to hopefully make finals. 2 totally different animals. Scouts went for the reaction off history and nostalgia which worked for them, BD didn't need that to excel. Technically Scouts could have been a hot mess ( they weren't) and still get an emotional reaction.

I don't think I really have to defend this idea, considering that it's played out that way in almost every facet of the entertainment industry. Hollywood churns out buckets of sequels and cookie cutter action flicks, and nearly everything on the Billboard Top 40 sounds identical. ("Gettin crunk in the club" -- check, copy pasta beat in Sony ACID -- check...) Am I saying that fresh and new designs won't happen and won't win. Absolutely not. Let me make that abundantly clear with bold type. What I'm saying is that fewer designers will be willing to take the risk. When you try something risky, you go for the gold or fade into obscurity. You can sit and list risky movies that did well, or innovative songs that topped the charts, but for each example you have of something risky that did well there are countless others that failed miserably and have never seen the light of day.

I can't explain how much of a great idea I think that this is...

Here's why I think it's different. There was a lot of good execution last year. There was also clearly superior execution. In fact, there was little disagreement on which corps executed their programs best. Thus we fans were able to achieve a reasonably objective ranking of achievement, which happened to match the judges' scoring. I have no such expectation we can evaluate entertainment in similar fashion. HH

- Something I'd like to see more of from the trailers is Under Armor gear. I purchased a Madison Scouts one last year and I believe Phantom Regiment sells them as well. Those things are great to wear while working out or to just run around in. - Drum Corps Toilet Paper. Show your support and condemn a corps all at the same time. - I would love to see some trailers sell bottled water and sodas for about half the price of the concession stand.

Good point. Honestly....IMO.... compared to the "legit" music world (classical, orchestral, etc.... I don't include Miley Cyrus on this list....LOL)... ALL drum corps is a "big, dumb thing." I absolutely would prefer not to see a show with 10 corps doing nothing but Sousa marches, or some such thing.... but I also don't think drum corps fans/performers/staff members (myself included) can afford to be musical snobs, or place drum corps on a level that it is not at, or perhaps never was meant to be at. It's people marching around on a football field, doing their best to perform their shows at the highest level they can... not rocket science or high art.

Oh dear me. First we have the word masturbation and now this. I'm telling you what, that's a bit more than my poor heart can handle. I'm all worked up now and feel like I need to be "entertained". Time to go roam the halls. I'll be back in awhile.

Did he just say "masturbation"? giggle giggle. Aside from my blushing face, I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with this. We need to all work for the day when corps aren't shaking the coffee can trying to come up with some extra change for gas, or when certain corps are willing to engage in civil war for the sake of a buck. Nobody disagrees that "entertaining" is subjective, but IF DCI wants to increase their market and make more money, then it will require that they "pander" to the masses. You don't have to like it, but it's true. And, one could make the argument that drum corps was all about "pandering" many years ago, but somewhere it became esoteric and like a big onion where you have to peel layers to enjoy it. It's not rocket science folks: Put some entertaining products on the field that make the masses go home and tell their neighbors how much fun drum corps was. And for heaven's sake, STOP masturbating!

<So are you conceding then that these corps are not entertaining?> Well, one could make that false assumption...if one wanted to hone that particular ax. My point was that Glassmen, BD, Blue Knights, (sometimes) Boston, SCV (in 2010), Academy, and the vast majority of the 13-23 corps are viewed by DCP as 'hot dog' corps. Two or 3 of my favorite 4 or 5 shows from 2010 came from the above list. I like both well done homage shows (Madison) as well as outside the box creative shows (SCV). Other years, I'll have Glassmen, BK (they've been near the top of my enjoyment list for nearly a decade), Boston and even BD from time to time on my must see list. It's especially common in years when others decry them as boring - So I'm against this proposal because as others have pointed out, it will flatten out creativity and reward pandering. I'd rather sit through a few boring (to me...) shows for the gem that pops up from time to time than have all the gems buried under thousands of yards of fabric, and power cadences (though I do love functional harmony!), and long....longer....VERY LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG last notes.

So if you're arguing that an 'entertainment effect' score would mimic a general effect score, then this debate is pointless.

I agree with that. I think there are room for shows that are custom designed to bring the fans to their feet (see Madison Scouts last year, and their successful attempt at 'rebranding' their corps), and designed to stimulate intellectually and elicit reactions other than mass-appealing entertainment. I enjoyed both Blue Devils and Madison Scouts almost equally last season, but for vastly different reasons. Frankly, that's one thing I love about drum corps, and I think the activity as a whole is better at catering to different tastes than just about any other broad activity (IMO better than WGI or BOA). I think trying to shoe-horn every corps or show design into one broad category would do a great disservice to the activity, and you are not likely to find ten random judges who can all uniformly agree on not only what defines "entertaining," but the ranking of a show's "entertainment" factor.

You're missing the point Bawker. BD just happens to be the dominant corps Du jour... perhaps someday soon it will be ABCC and the "persecution kick" will belong to corpsband. The idea of an entertainment metric is of itself not that unthinkable....the problem is (as suggested in MAGICBOBERT's post #115) as long as finals remains stationary and regional bias (a natural occurence) exists, it can be skewed by "stacking the deck" by sheer volume. In short, who disects the emotional/aesthetic response from the "you're our favorite corps and we want you to win or AB??" response? Squishy.

General Effect DOES reward shows that "work:" 'entertainment' is a VERY small part of the current sheets, and generally the GE sheet (while possibly the easiest caption to disagree with) does work. I'm going to be blunt, and I'm sure I'll get disagreement and whatnot, but here it goes: "Entertainment factor" is the cop-out argument of mediocre design or teaching staffs. Can't design a show that effectively maxes out the sheets? Cop-out, blame the judges for not rewarding you even though the crowd likes you. Can't clean a show well enough to achieve a high placement? Cop-out and blame the judges for not rewarding you even though the crowd likes you. It's a lame argument that is typically used under-achieving corps who typically are not close in design or execution and instead must resort to grasping at straws. We are only two seasons removed from one of the crowd-friendliest shows of all-time winning DCI. There are several instances where the crowd loves the winning show. *sub-rant* and you know why that is? Because the design and execution are generally superior to everyone else. People loved Madison in 88 because they marched and played the crap out of a well-designed show. People loved Phantom because they played the crap out of their show. There were obviously plenty of fans of Blue Devils the last two years because (you guessed it): they marched and played the snot out of their show. Drum corps fans are fickle, and they like their excellence. Cavaliers had a nice dynasty last decade because they performed the crap out of well-designed shows. For as non-fan friendly as their music might've been in 2001, 2002, or 2006 (in some people's opinion, not mine) crowds ate it up because the shows were performed well. It's in our nature to not only find fault in corps/shows we dislike: it's also in our nature to find good in corps/shows we like. We often tend to over-think reasons why our favorite show didn't score as high as we would like. Heck, a lot of us that have marched and/or taught in the activity are trained to be hyper-critical, and that tends to apply ten-fold to our fierce rivals/competitors. But when it comes to arguments of "I liked corps X more than corps Y, so corps Y should've won," I call BS and cop-out. In nearly every instance the best playing/marching show will win DCI, and will beat the less proficient playing/marching corps. While on one level I think it's a decent idea for directors to maybe have a legit discussion about design trends in relation to delivering audience satisfaction. But to frame that discussion in a way that brings scoring changes is lame, and a cop-out.

Instead of "Go to Jail", I think a good alternative would be "Show Rained Out"; some of the chance/community chest could be "Bus (or Equipment Truck) breakdown, $150"; "Replace drum heads, $100"; "Mixup at housing site, go back 3 spaces"; "You Receive Proceeds from 50/50 raffle at your home show, collect $300"; "You are assessed music licensing fees, $200"; Free Parking could be "Donation of New Equipment by Corporate Sponsor".

If that were actually feasible it would be a really, really good idea.

Yeah that was about as scientific as creation.

Also, I just watched the 1998 performances of SCV, Blue Devils, and Cavaliers, and again am utterly perplexed by this claim, as I heard lovely, musical sounds from the pit in all three corps, and very prominently from the '98 Cavaliers, whose show includes many beautiful shimmery moments from the keyboard percussion -- and the DVD has a fair number of close-up shots of the pit, where no one seems to be hitting their instruments particularly hard.

Who knows? Maybe in years to come it'd be a hot collector's piece. It'd be funny to see on ebay "RARE! Phantom Regiment 2011 deed card!" Maybe have a printout board online or you can get a better made, longer lasting board at DCI.org. That way DCI gets money selling boards, corps get money selling pewter pieces and deeds. Everyone's happy!

The only thing that surprised me was that there were proposals without Hoppy's name attached to them. That seems like something of a novelty.

Community Chest: Take a Bath In Chocolate, Collect $200. Community Chest: They Swashed My Buckle!, Collect $200.

Also, I wasn't sold on BD's show right away. And I'm not generally somebody who "warms up" to shows after multiple viewings. But watching BD a few times in hi-def has changed my mind. It's brilliant.

given the...abilities?....of most double reeds, i'd actually rather hear an electric bassoon than an acoustic bassoon most of the time.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here... 1. TOC is a separate venue that is judged according to rules set up by the 'Top 8' participants. 2. These same corps will participate in DCI events using what has to be a different set of rules for judging. 3. The TOC shows will completely (or nearly) cut out other corps from any possibility of participation and compensation. So, what makes Finals so special again? Seems to me that the 'Top 8' are going to be firmly planted to the point that no other corps will be able to break in. They will not get the finances, exposure, or interest that the TOC corps receive and will therefore probably never get the kind of talent that would allow them to break down the wall. Why is DCI even playing this game? For that matter, why are the other member corps playing the game? Just split up and be done with it. Move on and begin rebuilding drum and bugle corps in the traditional sense (e.g. battery, brass, pit, guard). No woodwinds, limited use or no amplification, actual bugles (G, p/r, limited valves, although modern marching brass is OK I guess), local kids in local corps, teaching kids who have never picked up a horn or drum how to play and march....I digress. For me, the simplicity is what made this activity well liked by the masses. Broadway shows on the field are cool too, but they don't impact the number of lives that the hundreds of local DBC units have over the years. People are more proud of their kids on stage than any professional group at a local performance. We've lost our way...advancing the art at the expense of the traditional intent does not seem equitable. When there is a fork in the road, pick a direction and press on. If that means the travelers split up, so be it.

1 and 2 will probably pass. 3. I like the idea... but it has it's issues. It would be VERY subjective. Something can be entertaining... but it won't make me stand up and go crazy. Surprised no one has mentioned Star '93, would that show have suffered because there wasn't much crowd reaction until the eruption at the end? Some shows evoke a different response. Doesn't mean they aren't entertaining. Basically.. you can't put a definition on entertainment, because it varies WAY to much from person to person. Hell, there are people who didn't find Phantom '08 entertaining. And that has to be respected. However, I feel like overall entertainment needs to be factored in somewhere. Technically should GE be that already?? but if it takes adding this caption to actually make it count than so be it. It shouldn't count that much into the score. Bruckner's idea would work. But I think they definitely need to talk a lot about this, and field test it thoroughly. It is a step int he right direction. Although, it shouldn't take a separate caption for corps to create shows that appeal to the crowd.

Exactly, crowds reactions will be thought out instead of spontaneous... "wait, do I really want THIS corps to win? I won't clap as loudly... maybe won't clap at all just so I know the judge gets the hint..." "I really want this corps to win I'll scream all the time so the judge knows I like it! Even at parts that aren't that audience engaging" Awful... I know not everyone will do this but that fact that people CAN do this is enough to cut this proposal. Now, the one thing that corps members look to as an authentic reaction because of its disassociation with the judging is now skewed... AWFUL IDEA!!!

Sure does. And that's perfectly fine if everyone's in agreement that such "swings" are necessary and/or desired. A corps like Crossmen will be more likely able to jump from 13th to 8th too. IMO, this caption is even MORE subjective than the other ones, which implies it should get even LESS "play" in the scoring outcome.

While I really dig the idea of an "audience effect" category on the sheets, I would not want to be that judge. First of all, as proposed, this poor person is going to have to be plugged in to not just what is happening on the field, but also, what's happening in the stands. He or she will be looking all over the place, only to put a number on a sheet that is, invariably gonna' #### people off. "Way more people were on their feet than that number indicates!!!" "Are you kidding me? Everyone in my section was sitting on their hands at the end of that show!!" I think it's going to be a tall order to expect one person to "speak for the audience". We once again get into the debate of quantifying what the audience likes....

Pass. Not everything that is successfully communicated to an audience elicits a standing ovation. In fact, some of the most successful moments of connection are the ones that are met with the most respectful silence. That being said, I'd be all in favor of Mason's proposal (and don't really care one way or the other about the other two).

fan$

but at what cost?

George Hopkins.

I hope not, because I would want groups that are still actually "drum and bugle corps" to be able to use that name for their activity, without them being confused with a DCI-branded marching band product. DCA, the various alumni corps, mini corps, etc. DCI is drum corps, but drum corps is not DCI. DCI is its most prominent and well-known entity at this point, but it is not the totality of the activity.

I won't care what it's called, cuz I won't be there.

woodwinds. and we all know one person wants them in there badly

not all change is good

whew, i'm on top of the ocean

Abscense of light.

Stuff like this has the potential to create cool visual effects, but the Blue Stars learned their lesson in 07 with the dual colored pants. The payoff was no where near the overall negative effect created in terms of making the drill look sloppy and hard to follow. Might be a bit different with whole uniforms tho, and if history has taught us anything Cadets NEVER make bad design decisions..........BAAAAAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!! whew, don't care WHO you are that's funny right there!

Drum corps is very much a living, tangible entity that is constantly evolving. I think that this is a great move for the Cadets, if it is followed through with, because it represents their continued participation in the evolution of the activity. The music has multiple different sections that I can already see Bocook having a field day with, and the brass section living up to their reputation. Based on the rumors in the forum, this should be a very interesting product, especially with their involvement in the G8 and their participation in shows across the entire country. -The Expert