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We meaning DCP participants? Can't be accurate...so many here claim they never go to DCI shows anymore.

Good grief....such melodrama. I don't think the Blue Devils (for example) would fade into obscurity if they fail to win a 10-point caption for entertainment effect. Perhaps they would concede a tenth of a point to a corps that could surpass them in that caption. Let's not make mountains out of molehills.

Ask anyone: I've long been regarded as being ignorant when it comes to anything regarding the history and evolution of DCI-era drum corps. PS: I'm not taking umbrage at your opinion, but I think it's inappropriate to state that anyone who holds a certain mentality is "ignorant."

You have no right to even think about calling out SCV for finishing 7th last year. The year before, they were 5th. They've won 6 championships. When and where did you march? Obviously not at SCV, because we have a tendency of putting out individuals who have a little thing called CLASS. It seems like you're missing it. And if I seem ###### about this, it's because I am. I try and stay out of conversations like this, but seriously? Calling out my corps and my home because of PLACEMENT? It's not about the placements! It's about the experiences. Yeah, I'd rather have my summer of 2009 than the championship in 2009, I feel like I got more out of 09, made better friends, and made more memories. It's about the memories, not the placement at the end of the year.

Ok, let's take the 1979 and 1980 Blue Devils, and the 2009 and 2010 Blue Devils. Corps winning back-to-back titles in eras 30 years apart. Both considered dominant corps outstanding in every area (I also chose them because I'm an alumni of the corps, so can't really be accused of corps-bias). Let's exchange visual programs. The 2009/2010 Blue Devils members could learn and perform the 1979/1980 shows in no more than a day or two at most, and could probably learn the drill in an afternoon. Give them a week, and it would be spotless. Now, use a time machine and send 1979/1980 members the 2009/2010 shows. Do you honestly believe that they'd be able to do it? Not. A. Chance.

2010 is cleaner and more complex then anything you could have dreamed of marching in 1980. I see band that can only rehearse 8 hour a week march cleaner, more complicated drill then MANY 1980's corps. Guess at 20 years the rose tint is getting pretty dark, eh?

IMO I don't even think it's close that corps march way better today than 1980. Not only are the physical demands much higher, (strides getting upwards of 3 to 5 and tempos over 220 is not that uncommon anymore) but there is definitely a more unified look to the corps proper now. Corps stand better and MOVE better (there is a difference between marching and moving). Looking at videos from the early 80's there are a wide range of ways the members look when moving. The posture while standing still is just awful. Members now are taught lots of dance to help with moving in a fluid manner. There are still some difference from person to person nowadays, but it's a lot smaller of a range. I'm really not trying to bash older corps. I love older shows. The drum corps activity has just evolved to a more scientific way of thinking especially in the visual performance caption. It's taken 30 years of evolution for the instructors themselves to research and develop the visual programs that exist today. I'm not saying each era is better or worse. They are what they are and I believe it should be left at that.

That's right. God created The Cadets. Just ask Hop. (look down here) l l l l V

uphill, both ways, in the snow, barefoot. Told you it'd end here...

Oh my... what have I missed? LOL Look, Mikey you should just let it go. This is not good for you or anyone else. I care about your health, and this cannot be good for you. My disclaimer is that I had a major part in my dismissal and I really didnt leave Roman much of a choice. I was insubordinate to him in public out of frustration, and watched everything, including my personal values get away from me. I have known Roman as a friend for many years, and I sincerely hope at some point, we can look back at last summer and either laugh or cry together. I posted (and retracted) something a couple of weeks asking posters to not slam last years or previous years' staff. There were excellent teachers in every area that worked very hard with students that maybe werent as talented as many other corps but had the desire to be in drum corps. Also it puts the new staff in a no win situation if they finish with the same or lesser results. I felt that this message wasnt coming from posters BUT from the posts out of the office. I have since received a very respectful personal message from one of the new hires telling me that the staff that had been hired didnt think that way at all, and that they had much respect for the departing staff members. I really appreciated that correspondence as well. The students that know me, know that I am passionate about this to a fault. I am actually relieved to be able to not consume myself in the corps right now. My life is becoming much more manageable with this chance to breathe. I appreciate the opportunities that Roman gave me, and can say that I did the best I could. I sincerely wish the incoming staff and students tremendous success. And Mikey...give it a break, there is no solution to your words my friend, only angst. Donny

Thank you Tony. I'm not going to say what you guys did was easy, I mean, doing 101s as an exercise is enough to kill someone, and doing that for 11 minutes...... But really guys? It was cleaner back then? Probably because they weren't running around the field for 11 minutes at 180+ while doing body movements, and doing drill people could barely dream of back then. But let's take a quick comparison.- Spirit 1980. Everyone loves that show, right? let's look at the intro and opener. Start out, marching in a circle for 32 counts, facing the direction of travel at an 8 to 5. Then long extended park and blow. and finish. Now let's take the 2010 Cavaliers, another show people seem to be enjoying. They start out pretty well running at around 164? or so? Yeah......

And every Cavalier show in the past 20 years is proof that teaching this style DOES work. There are pros and cons to both, and neither is more or less correct than the other. There are also certain types of moves you can do in each style that would be just about impossible in the other style.

Thank you Charlie. As I pointed out in the other thread, but was ignored, corps that do dot marching spend tons of time working with mid-sets. My dot book has somewhere around 125? normal sets, and about 100 or so mid-sets, in between the normal sets. And there were even a few quarter sets thrown in. That means on an 8 count move, we knew exactly where to be on count 2,4,6 and 8. So yeah, we spent some extra time on it. We were trained to know not only what the final set was supposed to look like, but what the mid-set was supposed to look like.

Different Styles and different level of difficulty. Of course it was cleaner.

(I know that isn't the case) Why? Is there only one way to entertain?

One could have the same gripe about any caption on the sheets. BD got 4th in percussion, and they won??? What's that all about?

I'm not very good at math, but how is "once in 1980" and "once in 2011" considered "every day" in your somewhat shakily attempted metaphor?

I was just hoping that Drum Corps Planet could start a section on Small Drum Corps Assoication ,or ( Arena Drum Corps ) much like they do for DCA and DCI section. Small drum is the way to go if your group has a small budget in this tight economy, and then go on to grow to a bigger corps, either a DCA or DCI group. Thanks for you time.

And the young men are at camp NOW! Thom Hannum in the house, Robert Smith in the house!

How in the world did this post get -2? Who could disagree with Stu here?

well....look at the 80's. Lots of risks taken. some of the most popular seasons...not just shows...but seasons of all time. I think they'll be ok. Oh, some may feel like they are going outside the box at first. But that can be healthy

apples to oranges. good try tho

Nudge...a little this way...nudge...a little that way...nudge... and voila, it's passed! (look down here) l l l l V

some of us bought keyboards out of our own pocket for where we teach to keep from having to cut kids since the school wouldnt buy enough equipment. some of us have had the power to place the order thru the budget office. i think more understand the cost than you wish to give credit for

I had a brass instructor that told us he thought a particular brass judge was always in the dark when it came to our brass line.

So if Pioneer used the "howdy" system of cleaning drill they would make finals? Once again there is no ONE correct answer for cleaning drill. Just because someone prefers one method does not mean all others are wrong. Z

On another note, I say go Pinoeer! Keep doing what you're doing! They have a mission in place, and they do it perfectly. They provide quality instruction for anyone who walks through the door, regardless of past experience. That's amazing. That's what people should be looking at, when they talk about the loss of community drum corps. That's what Pioneer is, they take any kid that wants to march, and gives them the summer of their life. I say Congrats to them for going out and doing this every year, and I hope to see them again back on the road this summer.

You must be trolling [ahem] kidding, right?

This discussion happens a few times a year, and it's absurd. If someone asks you if you march "dot" or "form" the ONLY correct answer is "yes". March dots but be aware of the form. March the form and be aware of dots. It's all the same. /thread

AND it starts again...

You are arguing against human nature. I don't think you will win. Shows ARE designed to the sheets. Anything that is on the judging sheets, the designers and corps directors will react to. They are all very competative people who are going to use whatever available judging criteria exist to try to get more tenths of points and beat the next guy. The judges use the system that they have and reward points accordingly. The designers who want more points design to that system. If it changes, they will change. Whether "entertainment" is to be considered a part of the GE sheets or if it gets its own caption, the designers will adapt and become more "entertaining" whatever that means. "What gets measured gets managed" - Peter Drucker

I am ready. Camp is this weekend. They will announce the rest of the music and maybe a show title for the 2011 Scouts. Or maybe another show without a title. Either way, it's gonna be awesome!

I was watching some video of an orchestra, and , by gosh, if they weren't beating the snot out of a set of marimbas with hard acrylic mallets...it was during a loud passage...huh...who duh thunk it...

Performance artists who don't have a paying audience go broke. Shows that flop on broadway close. Ballets companies that can't sell tickets fold. In any case I think it's a bit of stretch to call marching band / drum corps shows "art". It's freaking marching band.

It's OK for them to judge based on audience reaction as long as that audience is me.

Even though it did not win, 1987 Vanguard is certainly in the running for most effective and famous drum corps show ever. 7

Are you ready for some Drum Corps!

it was good to see the Optimists Alumni take the Dutchboy guard under their wing. I haven't heard anything recently about Dutchboy, so I would assume, they will remain as a parade/guard corps this year as well.

####, beat me to it! All the very best to SOA this year, I'd love to see them back in the top 12.

I skipped a few pages of posts so I apologize for repeating any ideas that have already been put out there or discussed... It seems to me that this is basically just another judge added to "smooth out" the GE scores. This is already taken care of by the double GE panel. The last part of the proposal mentions that the judging panel would instead be two GE judges (instead of 4) and the one Entertainment judge. This might save money for the major shows, but wouldn't it cost more for other shows that would otherwise only have the two GE judges? (I may be mistaken if more than just the major shows have the double GE panel currently) If anything needs to be done as far as "entertainment" factored in to judging, just emphasize it more on the existing sheets. If entertainment is in such short supply, I think the corps themselves would hopefully notice simply from the lack of merchandise being bought by fans. Another thing is that judging "entertainment factor" can be just as designer-reward-centric as the current system... An issue I think many might perceive as being alleviated by this proposal. A corps can't be "entertaining" if they don't have an "entertaining" show to perform no matter how well they perform it. Yes, it would be great of some corps didn't put out terrible messes of shows some years, but will adding this caption really keep that from happening? I don't think so. In all, I don't think the addition of this caption would impact the activity in any measurable way, and therefore should not be implemented.

You're misreading this. The intent is not to create an increase but hold off a decrease. Anyone who runs a public event where the audience "sits on their hands" for the headliner is going to be concerned about their ability to get those customers to return. I don't disagree with you that "excellence" attracts fans. Compulsories in figure skating exhibit excellence. Hard core fans like watching them. But they're not televised because the audience enjoys the excellence packaged up and accessible. Does the packaging somehow remove the excellence? Not at all. Will excellence still prevail? Absolutely -- so long as your packaging keeps the audience interested in what your doing.

I was taught by Sly Sybilski and Chris Alexander, two former Cavaliers, both of whom have taught DCI champion corps, so I think they know what they were doing. I've marched for 4 years, two in SCVC and two in SCV. We march fully "to the dot". You do not look at the form at all. you go to your spot. If the guy next to you is wrong, then he's wrong. It's not your responsibility to worry about the people around you. Thanks for assuming you're better than people whom you know nothing about. Maybe not everyone in DCI wants to win. Maybe they're actually there are members who do it for the experience, not the ring.

Amen - you want to beat them? You have to figure out how to get better than them.

Please do MALAGUENA!! It is my favorite show of all time You just gotta keep those euph solos!

Here is a truism for me personally: I came from a high school that had a very poor marching band; and even though I was aware of the great BOA type bands (MBA back then), I knew that I could never be a part of one of those units due to participation being based on specific school enrollment. Therefore when I saw my first DCI show I fell in love with the "quality" of the groups in DCI, "not" the fact that they happened to be drum and bugle corps. I was like a a little league baseball kid who is only accustomed to playing stick-ball becoming aware of the MLB for the first time! Therefore, if what I had seen out on that field in competition that summer evening were high caliber independent non-school affiliated marching bands from all over the country, I would not have cared if their were woodwinds; in fact the thought would have never occurred to me that "those dang blasted instruments are a perversion to the activity". Nope! I still would have driven those many miles to a city that I never knew existed to audition fo a high quality group; I still would have been elated when I was accepted as a member; and still would be full of wonderful memories of being able to perform all over the nation with something of that high quality level. Now go ahead and make my day!!! Give me all of those nanan-booboo red negatives!!!

i'm at work.....waiting for a few less crazies to get off the snowy roads

It's mostly a balance thing, since the volume is artificially increased from what it would be acoustically (so it always appears jarring and out of place, even more so than the marimbas and xylophones now), a style thing (remember early season beginning of Cadets 2006? ), and a quality of sound system/speaker thing.

This makes me excited for our SOA brothers and sisters!