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If this is enforced, then DCI execs. should move all of their offices outside in 100 degree weather and do their work there.

No, it does not matter if forms are in the absolute correct positions on the field as it was on paper. However, when you consider the fundamental objective of pursuing consistency in performance, "form marching" limits your opportunity to achieve performance consistency (and quality). Why? Because form marching requires that the performer constantly adjust to what the form gives you, which by definition is different every time. Example: With form marching, five separate runs of the same drill set can result in 5 separate physical locations of that form on the field. Every time you ran that same set again and again, it required a different physical demand for each performer, regarding step size, upper-body positioning, demands of visual dress (seeing the form) and physical dress (actually getting into the form), etc. Now multiply that by the number of drill sets (and physical adjustment responsibilities) in the show. Assuming that the performing ensemble possesses even an intermediate level of skill development, this requirement to "go with what the form gives you" will obviously negatively impact other parts of their performance. Using "Howdy-era" examples of clean marching (I think he cited 1980), clearly the visual demand on the performer was not what it is today. Those drills didn't require the kind of detail-oriented approaches that are required today. Those drills were slower in development, they did not have nearly as much content as contemporary designs, they had less complex forms and form development, and they were designed in a manner where sight-lines were taken into account. Drills today are downright dangerous for the performer. Outrageously quick tempos, blind moves, jazz-running, maintaining much more defined/articulated and physically demanding individual marching techniques, integrated body choreography, and every section of the corps is integrated into the visual design with equal performance demands. It's actually comical that anyone serious would even compare the two and advocate that the same technique from 30 years ago is better for today's visual demands on the performers than contemporary "dot-emphasis" approaches. There are two central points that support what most people refer to as "dot marching." 1. Marching with "dot emphasis" supports achieving performance consistency, because every individual is always working to achieve the exact same individual goal on every step, and every rep. You also don't need the rest of the corps to be present in order to study or practice your show. Start here, end there, and use your predetermined mid-sets/sub-sets in the process... every single time. You can even use the technology-based tools to analyze every set of the drill, and your personal positioning and movement throughout the show. Even a first year high school marcher can understand and work to achieve what's demanded of them, in much shorter time than the potential years that it takes to develop superior level form marching skills. With dots, you're acting on known information and only working to achieve clear, consistent objectives. In addition, you're going to ultimately develop muscle memory for every set of that show, because of the never changing variable in physical demand. Repetition moves you toward perfection, and you're in control of the outcome. 2. We all know that action beats reaction. "Form marching" means that you're constantly making different adjustments (reacting) to unknown outcomes (exactly where that form may end up on the field... this time). You're literally reacting to what is happening around you. Some reps of the same sets are easier, some more challenging, but the fact that you're always adjusting, other performance areas will be negatively impacted. "Dot emphasis" approaches takes all of that away. It seems that this debate continues to expose generational gaps in teaching and performance experiences, as well as actual working knowledge of the application and use of available contemporary teaching tools, technology, and proper instructional techinque. I have yet to meet anyone that has actually used the current technology and teaching approaches properly ever contend that form marching has any advantage.

The only thing that matters is a good staff. Any of the supposed cons of dot or form are attributed to staff or membership not excelling at their job (to put it nicely). Also, a great drill writer understands the teaching philosophies of the vis staff and writes drill to play up their strengths (i.e. the vis designer works in tandem, to an extent, with the Vis Caption Head to make sure the by Finals the drill looks impeccable). But really, dot vs form emphasis is all about personal staff philosophies, and near-perfect drill execution is capable with either technique.

Well, when you win a lot there are always similarities. All corps that win have a formula, and, in fact, having a formula is a good thing. Over-using it for too many years is not. It was starting to cost the Cavaliers in 2007, 2008, 2009; and perhaps it will cost BD at some point. The differences that I see between the two corps are: 1. Blue Devils still try to beat you with performance. Plain and simple, they come out with brass, drums, visual execution, and a guard that can take top honors on any given day. 2. The Blue Devils will construct a show that takes advantage of their musical abilities (which are typically higher than most corps), and they will craft a visual program that allows their guard to shine and shows off their impeccable marching. You may not like it, and maybe some years you do like them, but there is NO DOUBT how good they are. Their visual programs always contain a few very demanding moves, but typically they do not abuse demand for the sake of cleanliness or quality. They are very careful in the planning stages with their construction of the music and visual. When you have brass, percussion, and a guard as talented as they do, you don't need cheap tricks or frills to win (despite what people might think of the chairs or the mirrors). 3. The Cavaliers construct a show that utilizes their geometric design ideas to the max, often making sure the music fits the visual ideas being expressed (and vice-versa). They are the best at taking an intro or an extended musical phrase and milking it visually. They can take a simple set of long tones that perhaps end a phrase and they will have 5, 6, even 7 visual ideas that will bring that musical phrase to a visual conclusion. 4. At the same time, The Cavaliers are good about not over-thinking the visual. They will use the flash and surprise that comes from geometric and kaleidoscopic drill by integrating it with music in a way in which the "feeling" is NOT the goal, but the "wow" factor is. Good music can stand on its own. Good music with good drill can be merged and be effective providing one of the two is not asking too much of the viewer. Sometimes a corps asks more of the fan when they program music that is dissonant or overly complex. If you're going to do this you can't counter with drill that is the same, but with drill that excites and heightens the senses without any special meaning put to that drill. This is exactly what the Cavaliers do so well. Lines that flow, boxes that rotate and create more boxes, shapes that double in size, or the sequencing of simple elements (1 person, then 2, then 4, 8, 16, 32, etc.) do NOT ask of anything from the audience, but they excite our senses. 5. Finally, the Cavaliers and Blue Devils both try to tell their stories, convey their ideas, or capture their feelings through the guard and its interaction with the corps proper. Both have had spectacular guards, and DCI judging sheets do reward this quality and integration in a big way. This shows up in the guard score and also in visual and GE. It's a triple whammy when you have a guard that good and integrated that well.

Let me clarify this rumor. As with most rumors, it is unsubstantiated and wildly wrong. The proposal is to have all males rehearse outside in three-piece suits and all females in burkhas. I trust everyone can agree this is a simple and logical solution.

As someone who marched, I'd be okay with it, if DCI would provide air conditioned facilities for all practices, for all corps. Otherwise, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well they are both the same in the fact that they changed the way we thought of show design, and we wondered if the Cavies would ever lose again....and I am wondering the same thing about BD.

One had a lot more female members.

I've got to agree with Lance. As a mallet player, I've long found it interesting to talk with drum corps mallet players. Those that were in before amplification and afterwards claimed techniques had to be adjusted. Pounding the keys sounded really bad when amplified, but proper technique was enhanced by amplification. Of course, some corps instructors had figured out how to get the maximum sound from the keyboard instruments prior to amplification, but amplification did open up different possibilities for them. I always thought amplification should have allowed for the need for less marimbas and vibes in the pit, but I was apparently wrong. The marimba and vibes arms race appears to have no end in sight.

whoever wins brass can't have thunderous goo playing the tuba part...

I'll take a shot at answering, in order: Yes, it matters. See the video shots of the stands in 2000 vs the stands in 2010. A return to 1980? Few here want that and it's not what the thread is about. ESPN or PBS? Probably not. But the activity grew for many year without them. DCI has national attention among the niche of drum corps fans from coast to coast. It just happens to be a smaller niche than NCAA football. Sold out stadiums? Rarely have they ever been, but that's still the goal, yes? "Geek" and "Band" has mostly been propagated by sports fans who see appreciation of halftime as a threat to their activity. Like drum corps fans, that won't change. Personally, if I were going to try to relive my youth I'd do it with an 18 year-old blonde, not a bunch of old, fat drum corps vets. First show in 2005, huh? Appreciation comes from exposure. Stick around a while you'll experience it, too. Hate? Not at all. Nothing but love here. The few Haters on DCP are quickly identified and summarily ignored. We don't all hate getting old. When you're a little older you'll come to recognize that. Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Change is what many of us here want. The fact that change is defined differently is what makes a place like DCP worth visiting. How boring would it be if we all agreed?

2 words...who cares. dots..forms..lines...scramble...as long as it gets done, does it really matter?

What I see from many top 12 drumcorps is tons of interval errors, and distance errors, and cover and dress errors. Knowing where your set and subsets are is one thing, and I agree that every marcher should know every one of them by the book [ but in the real world many student don't] but what are you going to do if being in your subset , at the proper place, on your dot perfectly, makes a bad interval problem ever worse? Are you going to make adjustments , or are you just going to go to your designated subset [dot baby!] and ignore all interval and distance errors, because it is not your responsibility to adjust to them?

How about a new champion?

you can reply to anyone you want, I dont care. and I was joking to Lance.

i can se maybe some helth reasons why but I dunno, unless someone really abused it or DCI got a lot of flack, I dont get the point

Corps do enforce this rule for when their members are INSIDE the housing site.

Many years ago I was a budding music major with an emphasis in mallet and tuned percussion. My Julliard-trained percussion professor was VEHEMENTLY against drum and bugle corps usage of mallet percussion in the pit, stating that all you got was "people pounding the crap out of the bars to produce any volume, and that's not musicality." I, too, have been surprised to see that the number of keyboards in the pit have not dropped since the introduction of amps. So much for that rationale, I suppose.

No, having judged a couple of hundred corps and band shows...and been to an equal number of critiques as a staff person...I'd never consider every statement made by a judge to be representative of anything beyond a spur of the moment comment...certainly nor something I'd apply to the organization as a whole as the official position on whatever-it-was being discussed.

I'll see your entry and double the bet! I want to see THIS on the field :-)

I have a better idea...Why dont the other corps beat Reading? It is time that someone figures this out. DA

Let's see, doubling daily posts during review season takes you to 50 and me to 2. I've got a lot of ground to make up to cushion against that. And because EVERYONE knows that nearly EVERYBODY agrees with you all the time I'm not taking any chances.

over the past 5 years, i'd have to say crown. overall since dci's formation, i'd say scv.

Jeff isn't paying cash. and Jeff didn't vote for BD in either option available.

participating in I&E should be encouraged, not mandated. and the rest is just, well.....how do I put this....get laughed off the table

Really, though...what could be added to women's lacrosse that would be a major change? Jet packs?

From the Madison Scouts Facebook page...

No corps has done Malaguena as well as the scouts....

Exactly, one way isn't better than another, they are both effective techniques when taught properly.

Apparently Howdy cares

I don't think the Sub- Sets need a multiplier here.( comment removed per forum guidelines - ee) A marcher "out of step" is.... out of step. Period. Sub-sets, dots, multipliers, etc or not.

Did you mis-type here? The issue is how well the corps communicates to the audience, not the other way around. One only need look at 2008 to see how well an audience can "communicate". Especially when you compare it to another show, like, for instance, a particular show from 2010.

Me? Bad boy? With this face?? Maybe the bad math image...I've got a realistic chance of winning that one.

2 words: sub-sets Corps use sub-sets!!! SUB-SETS! It's like having a dot every 2 steps! If instructors "do a terrific job in having marchers arrive at the formation at percisely the time and manner demanded in the visual set" then multiply that by the number of sub-sets in a performance! I think your experienced eye needs some thicker glasses...

I'd watch that North Star Corps any day of the week..." Sir Duke"..." Masquerade".... Star Wars Theme "....." Ole "... etc... great percussion and guard.... outstanding soloists... etc. Fun Corps. 'Didn't matter to me where the judges put them for performance and execution. That's in their domain. I can't go there. The entertainment "value and enjoyment " quotient is in my domain. The judges can't go there.

I love that Corps, Classic! At least we can agree on something. One of the best Drum and Bugle Corps ever.

Howdy, let me make this simple for you. At 208 beats per min, 6-5 step size, with rotations and cross-throughs (sometimes with backwards blind moves carrying 50 pound tenors) if you do not go specifically to your dot, using the specific subset path required, people could get hurt in a very bad way. But if I remember correctly, you are the wise one who also thought a "teenager" would make a great Executive Director for a purported new drum corps that was going to buy a new mobile kitchen, secure new instruments, lease three Wynne Buses, provide a high quality staff, and based in Indiana; correct?

In Marching and Maneuvering Execution, (what marching performance was called back then), North Star received 9.0 (out of a possible 15.0) from Judge #1 (11th place) and 9.7 from Judge #2 (tie for 10th place). Since drums also came up for the period of 1979 through 1981; in 1979 the average of the two Drum Execution scores plus Percussion Analysis was 18.5 out of 20.0. The drums tied on the sheet of Execution Judge #1 for the top score with Santa Clara Vanguard, tied on the sheet of Execution Judge #2 for the top score with SCV and Phantom Regiment, and was 3rd in Percussion Analysis for a total drum score that was 0.2 behind SCV. In 1980, the line was 9th in Total Drumming. I don't have the placements for 1981 because the corps was 13th in Prelims and I only have recaps for Finals.

you have to have some of both, especially early in the season. argument ended. bye Howdy

For your answer see BD 2010. I just know my rep is going to get dinged for that comment. Be nice, please. I'm racing Ream.

Mikey, What is your purpose here? You know that this isnt RAMD...my brother is banned for life on here, LOL. Say a prayer brother...and then let it go. Donny

You have no right to even think about calling out SCV for finishing 7th last year. The year before, they were 5th. They've won 6 championships. When and where did you march? Obviously not at SCV, because we have a tendency of putting out individuals who have a little thing called CLASS. It seems like you're missing it. And if I seem ###### about this, it's because I am. I try and stay out of conversations like this, but seriously? Calling out my corps and my home because of PLACEMENT? It's not about the placements! It's about the experiences. Yeah, I'd rather have my summer of 2009 than the championship in 2009, I feel like I got more out of 09, made better friends, and made more memories. It's about the memories, not the placement at the end of the year.

Agreed. Taking into account the demand of the visual programs nowadays, today's World Class marches much better than corps did in 1980.

Deadly. In fact, I'm even more sure of my position after watching the corps that placed 11th and 12th in 1980.

Nice statistical leap, but there is no corollary. All that proves is that six corps did it better, not that it doesn't work.

I sense that you are a good person with good intentions in your posted statements, however, I must tell you that you are not coming off well in this discussion. You've provided strongly committed opinions about a variety of things (some of which you can't possibly have knowledge of), moved the discussion off topic and likely (though perhaps unitentionally) offended people in the process. Examples: 1. You've implied in numerous statements that if one does not have "top 12 experience" that their contributions and quality of instruction are somehow "less than" or subordinate to someone with top 12 experience. One does not need a doctoral degree to know that that is obviously flawed, closed thinking that sheds a rather unflattering light on your own credibility. I find it hard to believe that you don't know of anyone with a credible music education background (not that they would need even that) that isn't teaching sound, fundamental performance technique, some of which is probably identical to what is being taught in a top 12 program. 2. While dismissing the quality of all personnel except those with a top 12 background, you then began to critique and question the qualifications of someone with a top 12 background (fsubone). 3. You cited the corps from Rosemont as an example of what should be done with Pioneer, and when advised of what exactly was taught in that organization by the specific individuals well known for their teaching accomplishments with that organization and the corps from the San Francisco suburb of Santa Clara, you choose to criticize that corps by bringing to light an example of an extremely difficult part of one of the most complicated shows ever put on the field... using a clip that pre-dated finals. Even with all of that, most would agree that that clip shows a high level of visual achievement. 4. By questioning fsubone's specific marching years with his corps, you've now implied that apparently only certain top 12 corps are to be given credibility. 5. Whereas I sincerely want to compliment the work that you do through your ministry, with all due respect, I don't think your website is as great as you think it is. 6. Your statements in reference to yourself seem quite conceited, prideful, and perhaps borderline arrogant, as you have more than once used them to criticize others. Really. I could go on.... Please take a step back and objectively consider how you're being received here, and why. You have a message (or portions thereof) that some may or may not agree with, but imo, much of it is lost in your delivery style. What's up with that? As it stands right now, it appears that Jeff R. is correct. I bid you peace. BACK ON TOPIC Go Pioneer!

So, correct me if I'm wrong here... 1. TOC is a separate venue that is judged according to rules set up by the 'Top 8' participants. 2. These same corps will participate in DCI events using what has to be a different set of rules for judging. 3. The TOC shows will completely (or nearly) cut out other corps from any possibility of participation and compensation. So, what makes Finals so special again? Seems to me that the 'Top 8' are going to be firmly planted to the point that no other corps will be able to break in. They will not get the finances, exposure, or interest that the TOC corps receive and will therefore probably never get the kind of talent that would allow them to break down the wall. Why is DCI even playing this game? For that matter, why are the other member corps playing the game? Just split up and be done with it. Move on and begin rebuilding drum and bugle corps in the traditional sense (e.g. battery, brass, pit, guard). No woodwinds, limited use or no amplification, actual bugles (G, p/r, limited valves, although modern marching brass is OK I guess), local kids in local corps, teaching kids who have never picked up a horn or drum how to play and march....I digress. For me, the simplicity is what made this activity well liked by the masses. Broadway shows on the field are cool too, but they don't impact the number of lives that the hundreds of local DBC units have over the years. People are more proud of their kids on stage than any professional group at a local performance. We've lost our way...advancing the art at the expense of the traditional intent does not seem equitable. When there is a fork in the road, pick a direction and press on. If that means the travelers split up, so be it.

what percentage of the audience standing? just the staff? because they stand when a guard member is flatulent.

"Major" has nothing to do with proportion of time.

Mike