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Its not that we have outgrown that music. Its just that music today sucks.

And I'm thinking that posts such as this represent the worst of what truly sucks about Drum Corps Planet. I mean, come on, what was it about that video led you to think it was necessary to come on and trash the corps in such a way? Did you think you were really contributing to the discussion? You obviously read a lot more into the video teaser than I was able to, since you've already written them off. Enjoy the hot dog that you'll be buying while they're on the field performing. But wait, I'm sure you'll only be attending G8 shows this summer, anyway.

Just curious now that 2010 DCI is well behind us, which show have you listened to the most and can't get enough of??

Rennick will teach his style. That's what SCV hired him to do. I will miss watching the SCV drum set line. Maybe Murray will take that approach again at Academy. I'm waiting to see what they do. I know there will be some serious learning going on there.

Point taken. You are right. I know about the evaluation process. I got carried away writing the announcement. I need to rein it in a bit. My mistake.

good to hear that Charlie is onboard with Pioneer.......best wishes buddy

BITD when I started teaching drill it was purely form management with a few "pick-points". What really did me in were when the forms became 5 yds off during a show. A pick person misread a yd line and that whole section of the group was wrong. I have been doing a dot only system for 25 years. The advantage in a band situation is even more so. When you have people missing, it is much easier in a dot system.

I liked what you originally wrote. What's really going on here? People aren't going all goo goo and ga ga and drooling over Renegades anymore and Lee can't handle that. The novelty of "7" and "Evil" has died.

Listening to the original, it doesn't sound bad at all. I hope they are able to match up to the original, and I hope they don't take it overboard.

1. velocity amplifies error. marcher D moving at an 16:5 at 120bpm can 5-10% out and it's hard to see. marcher K moving at 6:5 at 200bpm will have a similar small error amplified and thus easier to identify. 2. not every transition from set to set is a form on every beat. some effects where a form "comes from nowhere" will 'dissolve' and re-form instead of re-shape. because the eye loses the form, it's reappearance is surprising (and a good effect). this will often elicit "how did they do that?" Quite frankly anyone who thinks that today's corps can't march rings around a typical 1980's corps is using some very nice mind-altering chemicals. Exchange drill charts between the two corps and the 2011 corps would be done learning the drill in far less than a day and be *cleaner* than the 80's guys in a few days. The 80's guys -- quite frankly I don't they'd even attempt it. Everyone in the entire corps /staff would say "you can't be serious." Additionally anyone who thinks you can march modern drill with "form only" is on the same stuff. IMO this confusion mostly stems from terminology and ignorance/unfamiliarity. People use concepts from both and just don't realize it.

I will 2nd that!

Gosh...I miss this kind of happiness. So, perhaps, Pioneer is better off without your comments. Yes?

But those words are not the official line of the organization, just as yours were not. Yes, a judge represents the circuit as an employee, but it doesn't mean that each and every word they utter is the official word and opinion of the organization. Why? Because they are human, and not every person is as facile with the spoken word as every other person. I guess, as with many things, we'll continue to disagree on this point too!

Perhaps there would be many new corps if they didn't perceive the need to raise a minimum of a half million dollars (and maybe twice that or more) each and every year just to play the game. That is a rather large ante.

Isn't there a process in DCI for a corps to lodge a complaint about the judges, if they thought their evaluation was not fair or accurate? I don't know if they did complain, since I am not on Pio's staff. My guess, and hope, is that if they did go through those channels that they would have received some sort of response. We don't know what did or did not happen. It certainly should not have been made in public, IMO. It would have been between Pio and DCI. Oh, of course they represent the organization as employees, but it does not mean that any comment or action made represents the organizations POV. What you did was what I mentioned above...followed the channels to lodge an official complaint. That's perfectly fair.

Marchers get blasted on here all the time for changing corps or moving up the ranks, but no one seems to be upset when a corps ditches their membership to do the same. A corps ditching the marcher they had last year for a better marcher = acceptable. A marcher ditching the corps they had last year for a better corps = atrocious, and the problem with today's youth. Not saying you do this, just a general observation.

ok...so then on the days of these shows you have showed us, who got a perfect visual score? and the judges are ranking, rating and giving a fair score based on the criteria in use today...it just seems you dont like the criteria. well let's be honest...the tick system you keep harping about with 1980 North Star was just as subjective as what is in use today. There were no written manuals of what was and wasn't a tick back then....it was up to each judge to determine what they thought was a tick. it just so happens today drills have a lot more going on than what they used to have. is it wrong? no, just different. IMO, I'm far more upset at things going on with musical arrangement than visual performance errors, that, when you take all a corps is asked to do in those 11 minutes, some thing so minute that you point out is beyond minor. it's almost reduced to the size of the atom in the grand scheme of things. I guarantee you, if drill in 1980 had been even like it was by say 1985, you'd see things like you point out, especially weeks before finals. oh and I went home last night and checked out some of the 1980 dvd. so explain to me those mark time heights and how those visual scores were handed out? I mean based on your criteria, no one should have gotten above an 18 out of 25

as a judge for a circuit, we are constantly reminded at all times to watch what we say, even if we feel it's a joke, because we are considered representatives of the association we judge for. yes I have made a statement or two I wish I could do over....because it reflected poorly on the association. And with time, age, wisdom , and experience, I've learned to pick and choose my spots very carefully. I know other judges that have made comments...at all levels, that has caused issue for the association they judge for...because their words were considered to be the official line from the circuit itself.

No Howdy. It isn't. The corps won visual ensemble that night, not to mention a DCI championship. THAT is worth a 1000 words. All of the skills you listed are important, but those skills are also taught in the dot system... they are just gone about in a different way, but that is not the point. As many people have said on here before, ANY SYSTEM WORKS AS LONG AS YOU DESIGN & TEACH IT WELL. Conversely, any system can fail if you don't design and teach it well. If you cannot realize that Howdy, then you are clearly in over your head in the topic that you started. Furthermore, being dirty early season is a by-product of the demand that is evident in the shows these days. Honestly, as much as I hate to see dirt on DVD's, that (to a certain extent) is a product of the demands of shows these days too. If you do more, there is generally going to be more ticks... but there is room for more achievement too. You can achieve more than a corps that is cleaner than you simply by the "how much" that it is you do. Finally, if you are as smart as you say you are and have this whole drum corps thing figured out, then why don't you start your own corps and take it to the top? So far all we know of you is you are someone that got canned from Pioneer a couple of years ago and now spends a bunch of time bashing them...when you are not too busy being a self-promoter or espousing your own greatness that is.

So, in your world every comment made by anyone is the official position of whatever group that person belongs to? That's not sales and marketing 101. That is Utopia. People as individuals make all sorts of statements that would not represent the corporate position on a topic all the time. Its called being human. As a judge you are saying that you have never made a comment that you'd like to 'do over'???? Every single comment you have ever made is perfectly worded and phrased?

Pathetically disgusting, and I'm not talking about anything having to do with the performance of these corps. Sick.

This is very classless, I'm sorry Howdy. But making your point in this way is VERY low. It's fine if you think Dot-dot isn't the best way to teach drill but your "proving" in it way that demoralizes corps and represents yourself poorly. It seems that you're more against the corps you've chosen to "bash" then actually against dot-to-dot technique. Please look at any Cavalier championship shows to show that Dot to dot techniques DO work.

Seriously? You have no class whatsoever and with every post you only confirm that to more and more people. I can show you plenty of examples of form corps that look terrible....but I am not going to because it is not nice. The philosophy of how to teach drill is not important. It is how effective it is taught and how capable the students are of performing it. It is clear that you have something against Pioneer, which if my memory serves is a corps that you taught and were subsequently fired from in your first year. Just let it go.

So far after seven pages we have basically everyone agreeing on two things: 1. That the system you use (form or dot) doesn't matter... it is the teaching that does. If you teach well, either system will work. If you don't, no system will. 2. You don't know what you are talking about and you obviously have an axe to grind against Pioneer.

Let's see, doubling daily posts during review season takes you to 50 and me to 2. I've got a lot of ground to make up to cushion against that. And because EVERYONE knows that nearly EVERYBODY agrees with you all the time I'm not taking any chances.

It's a smaller niche than womens' lacrosse. Just sayin'

You people are hitting the wrong button! Think of the children!

Red Bull? Yech. Wouldn't consider it.

I'll take a shot at answering, in order: Yes, it matters. See the video shots of the stands in 2000 vs the stands in 2010. A return to 1980? Few here want that and it's not what the thread is about. ESPN or PBS? Probably not. But the activity grew for many year without them. DCI has national attention among the niche of drum corps fans from coast to coast. It just happens to be a smaller niche than NCAA football. Sold out stadiums? Rarely have they ever been, but that's still the goal, yes? "Geek" and "Band" has mostly been propagated by sports fans who see appreciation of halftime as a threat to their activity. Like drum corps fans, that won't change. Personally, if I were going to try to relive my youth I'd do it with an 18 year-old blonde, not a bunch of old, fat drum corps vets. First show in 2005, huh? Appreciation comes from exposure. Stick around a while you'll experience it, too. Hate? Not at all. Nothing but love here. The few Haters on DCP are quickly identified and summarily ignored. We don't all hate getting old. When you're a little older you'll come to recognize that. Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Change is what many of us here want. The fact that change is defined differently is what makes a place like DCP worth visiting. How boring would it be if we all agreed?

1980 work ethic matched with todays designs=AMAZING

"My"...what?

Fixed that for you. But, of course, your point is correct.

I think the issue is one of perception. BITD drill was more exposed; lines were either straight or they weren't. Ankle-knee either was or it wasn't. It was easy to spot because it was so exposed. Today's drill is so frenetic that it's much harder to tell across the whole corps whether drill is being executed well or not. Especially with small clusters of MM doing different things across the whole field. Each MM probably performs at a higher level of requirement today, but it's not as easy to spot both good and bad execution. (don't forget...) l l l l V

My understanding is the limit is 20 reps per day, 5 of which can be negative. But I could be wrong. Still, you're correct. The limit is what one can give, not what one can receive. I think Jeff's score went up more than 20 just yesterday. Jeesh. I think he's handing out cash for his votes, and he has a lot more money than I do.

I'm surprised that out of 59 posts, only one really addresses the OP's question. I was still marching when the transition from the tick system occurred, and I remember numerous discussions on this same subject. There was speculation that by removing the tick system, it would open the door for Corps to try to execute more difficult drill at higher tempos. The advantage being it would help with GE without being penalized for being a bit dirty, thus resulting in a higher overall score. So, yes, I for one do believe that removing the tick system has allowed for Drum Corps to march a dirtier drill.

I have not, though I have seen the one where they run playing Firebird, which apart from the shaking camera is excellent (and I might be shaking too if a wall of sound was running straight at me).

All I know is that one particular corps from 1980 Finals... Phantom Regiment... marched one of the cleanest shows I have ever seen, that night. There is no question in my mind that today's visual shows are more demanding... but that 1980 PR performance was virtually flawless.

Really? Wow, I didn't realize there is a quota on positive comments. But thanks for the attempt. Midnight is only 5 hours away... I guess I'll just have to be witty and thoughtful without reward. Been doing that most of my life...

That's right. God created The Cadets. Just ask Hop. (look down here) l l l l V

So give me some positive rep, please. I'm shamelessly racing Ream.

Thank you Tony. I'm not going to say what you guys did was easy, I mean, doing 101s as an exercise is enough to kill someone, and doing that for 11 minutes...... But really guys? It was cleaner back then? Probably because they weren't running around the field for 11 minutes at 180+ while doing body movements, and doing drill people could barely dream of back then. But let's take a quick comparison.- Spirit 1980. Everyone loves that show, right? let's look at the intro and opener. Start out, marching in a circle for 32 counts, facing the direction of travel at an 8 to 5. Then long extended park and blow. and finish. Now let's take the 2010 Cavaliers, another show people seem to be enjoying. They start out pretty well running at around 164? or so? Yeah......

Ask anyone: I've long been regarded as being ignorant when it comes to anything regarding the history and evolution of DCI-era drum corps. PS: I'm not taking umbrage at your opinion, but I think it's inappropriate to state that anyone who holds a certain mentality is "ignorant."

Ok, let's take the 1979 and 1980 Blue Devils, and the 2009 and 2010 Blue Devils. Corps winning back-to-back titles in eras 30 years apart. Both considered dominant corps outstanding in every area (I also chose them because I'm an alumni of the corps, so can't really be accused of corps-bias). Let's exchange visual programs. The 2009/2010 Blue Devils members could learn and perform the 1979/1980 shows in no more than a day or two at most, and could probably learn the drill in an afternoon. Give them a week, and it would be spotless. Now, use a time machine and send 1979/1980 members the 2009/2010 shows. Do you honestly believe that they'd be able to do it? Not. A. Chance.

Placing more emphesis on dot vs form has resulted in poor transitions. Corps who are teaching their students to just go to their dots and to ignore the forms are creating a lot of problems for themselves visually, and analizing their shows gives us proof.

I agree with oldsoprano. Such posts are a real shame and partly what is wrong with sites where you get to hide behind an avatar or site name. So I recommend getting a girl friend, boy friend, puppy, or heart for something in drum corps rather than simply placements and bashing young people you don't know. I enjoyed Spirit last year. For those of us lucky enough to see their last show, it was inspired and a real pleasure to see and hear. The crowd that was there seemed to agree with me. Standing O started 30 seconds before they were done. This year's show seems pretty cool to me. I am also guessing Film Noir. Lots of exciting things to draw on and maybe some old Spirit types of music as well.

Regardless of where they end up, I think they'll put a great show out on the field, again.

that looks to be a big change from last year and other recent shows. intriguing

I switched off right there.

Haha, definitely high on my favorite drum corps people too. Great guy, I wonder why he's not doin' it anymore.

Yepyep Troop playing Copland is like Cadets playing Bernstein or Crossmen playing Metheny- you know it's going to be good.