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Look. You're wrong about my intent. All I wanted to know is how it works when the corps isn't providing meals at camps. I used Madison as an example because I recalled reading on the Scouts site at some point in the not-too-distant past that they didn't provide meals at some camps. That's it. As it turns out, my memory wasn't mistaken. The Scouts website did say as much. You can read it here: http://www.madisonscouts.org/blog/?p=57. It says, among other things: November 24 – 25, 2007 Waunakee, WI (a suburb of Madison) Map: Waunakee High School (Waunakee, WI) Enter via the main entrance of the high school facing the stadium Multi-day audition camp for brass, battery, front ensemble and guard Overnight housing required, meals are on your own And for the record, it's neither slander nor libel if it is true. HH

Sorry Cop, but you are so wrong about the intent of these questions. It is not an attack that these corps are too poor to provide food, its just that their winter model does not provide food. The kids know it in advance and are well aware. No one is starving the kids because they can't afford to feed them. What we are trying to find out is what do those corps do at mealtime? Are the kids on their own or do they provide a bus? How much time do they get off? My question is, is it better to let the kids scatter for an hour or so and then refocus, or to feed them as a group and let them stay "focused" as a group? As with a previous post, I have only seen the "feed them all" approach and am curious about the other way.

I didn't march with any DCI corps. I am a fan of all drum corps...DCI, DCA, Alumni. You're talking to a guy who saw EVERY corps in Indy at least once last year, allof DCA prelims, and probably 15 alumni corps over the course of the year.

?

FWIW, I said that I marched in a Semi-finalist World Class corps, but I support this experimental business model. You might've missed my post, but even though I admittedly don't know exactly what's required to be at the upper echelon of the activity, I don't take any offense to this proposal and think that ANY of the corps should have the right to explore/execute any means of performance or revenue generating opportunities. I think if non-Top 8 corps feel slighted they are well within their right to form their own exclusive side-ventures to aid in their fundraising efforts. I suspect, however, that those lower corps also know that they need the Top 8 in order to be viable. There's a reason why the Div 2/3 only shows don't come anywhere close to filling the stands compared to World Class shows. ** On a side rant: This kind of eternal strife is bound to happen when DCI's governing body, the group of people tasked with insuring DCI as a collective is successful on all fronts, is run by the same people also charged with insuring that their own corps is successful at all costs. I know this is a double-edged sword, as it makes logical sense for corps directors to assume control of their own collective well-being. But the situation easily looks suspicious when directors choose to break away for reasons of (easily perceived) self-preservation vs the good of the collective.

Used to be a couple big names at each show to get draw. Also, with local corps that usually gets draw from supporters and families that don't want to travel all over the country to see their kids compete or cannot afford it. This is like economics 101. It's like..yeah gas costs more..well hell the answer is have them drive further...doh.

While reading over all the tired, rehashed, delusional, or - in the case of one poster - deranged arguments, I thought it might be cool if someone, you know, tried to answer the OP's question. I don't think the OP was a troll that posted and ran, but s/he does seem to have been scared off. So this may not help the OP, but maybe someone will find it useful. I'm sure I've made some mistakes so corrections and additions are welcome. I've tried to make this unbiased - mainly by linking to the relevant material, rather than describing it myself - so let me know if it seems unfair in any way. Way back in May, at a meeting of the DCI Board of Directors (which consists of 6 corps directors and three outside members, all selected by the 22 member corps of DCI) Cadets director George Hopkins made a proposal concerning something he called the G7 (Group of Seven) consisting of DCI's top 7 corps: Cavies, Crown, Bluecoats, Blue Devils, Phantom, and Cadets. The proposal has been summarized in this thread, but you can read the actual powerpoint here. It seems long, but it's really not, and if you want to understand the G7 you should read it. By all accounts the reaction to the proposal was ferocious. Couple of days later all 22 member corps held a conference call wherein those opposed to the G7 tried to restructure the board of directors by removing two of the G7 directors who were on the board, but in a show of solidarity all four G7 directors on the board resigned. The whole thing was apparently pretty acrimonious, as these things tend to be. Even so, the member corps decided that they would like to here more regarding the proposal in July. At the same time, rumors started surfacing in the community at large about a major split within DCI. There had been rumblings for some months ahead of time, but the first confirmation that something real was happening came when Drum Corps World announced that it was going to release an article on the G7. At this point speculation on DCP and elsewhere reached feverpitch. A few days after the conference call was completed DCW released the article, which can be read here. At the same time the G7 corps came out with a press release, which you can read here. It's worth noting that the Cavaliers also came out with a press release which indicated they may not have been 100% behind the G7 proposal. So battle lines were drawn. The DCI administration and the non-G7 corps were furious about the proposal. The G7 corps seem to have been stunned by the ferocity of the reaction, and were upset at how much of the affair had been made public. But the season began, the whole thing faded into the background. The July meeting came and went, but nothing apparently came of it. Another proposal (of sorts) was unearthed during that time, called "The World Series of Drum Corps", but I don't think it's ever been established who wrote it, and when. The season ended, the off-season began, and a few months passed. Tempers presumably cooled during this time. After the meeting in November DCI announced that it was planning a separate series of events on top of the traditional tour that sort of resembled the new competitions envisioned in Hopkins proposal. You can read the article here (scroll down to the bottom for the relevant information). This is what is now being called the "Tour of Champions". The relationship between the Tour of Champions and the G7 proposal is not really clear at this point. Most people seem to think that that the G7 proposal was some sort of negotiating tactic these corps used to get what they really wanted, the TOC. I used to think that, but I'm not so sure anymore. Hope this helps. I'm sure someone could come up with a more detailed and accurate timeline. This is serious and (for me, at least) fascinating issue, so it would be great if everyone could discuss without losing their heads. Except for those posters who lost their heads long before coming to this board. I didn't link to the original DCP threads on this, but a quick search can find them. Lots of interesting and well-thought out perspectives on both sides of issue can be found on those threads. There's plenty of crap, too, but no matter how much people b#### about this forum these threads are still 10x milder and more useful than most IRL conversations about the G7. Edit: Guess I should say that I was strongly opposed to the G7 proposal, but that I support the TOC (so long George Hopkins cornball vision for these events isn't followed). In response to fsubone's fair (and important) question, I was never in one these corps, and never came close. I'm simply not good enough. I did spend a good deal of time and money to help my sister get into one of these corps, and this corps is my new home corps since my old corps went extinct. She hasn't (yet) gotten a ring, but she knows about being near the top. I let her read some of the posts on this thread and she says she's happy her experience in an elite corps hasn't left her graceless and delusional.

There is no qualifier to have an opinion on any sports message board in America. Nobody asks you if you played or coached the sport at a high level. Some of the biggest " losers " with their predicted opinions and analysis were actually former players and Coaches...NONE of the so called TV baseball analyst " experts " ( former players and managers ) thought the Ssn Francisco Giants and the Texas Rangers were going to be the teams in last year's World Series.. and this was 1 month before the playoffs began. NONE of the TV football analysts ( former players and Coaches ) predicted the Jets would beat the NE Patriots or that Seattle would knock off the New Orleans Saints. NONE of the TV College Basketball analyst " experts " ( former Coaches Dick Vitale,DiggerPhelps, etc ) predicted Butler would be in the Final 8, let alone the Championship game. And so on and so forth. We don't need to know what Drum Corps experience a person has on DCP to determine if what they say has merit or not. Some of the dumbest people I know marched for years in Drum Corps. And some people who never marched and wouldn't know a paradiddle from a parimutuel, have made some interesting and compelling points re. the Drum Corps activity as they've tended to look at things from an unbiased position and through a fresh set of eyes and ears.

Sound boards in my DCIs?! Boooooooooooooo! The pit is too loud! Rable rable rable. A couple years pass. Controlling a sound board so that the pit sound doesn't dominate?! Boooooooooooooooooo rable rable rable! Oh fans...............

I am all for entertaining shows and fan friendly shows. BUT...... This must be policed by the designers and judges. NOT THE FANS. entertainment is different for everyone . there is NO chart to determine if a show is more entertaining to another. This is All in the aye of the fans. AS I SAID .. policed by the judges. Not to give them a number to put down because the fans or they themselves find a show entertaining. It is the attempt to entertain that should be rewarded in the EFFECT caption. Some of these high brow shows ( such as BD , Cadets , SCV ) are entertaining to some but not all. shows like Blue Knights , Madison , Blue Stars or Cavies. How do you differentiate the differences in entertainment?? THE crowd ?? no !!! I went to a cheerleading comp some years ago and the crowd , fans , and mostly parents only go nuts for their kids . They sit silently for the other groups because crowd appeal is judged. It was embarrassing embarrassing embarrassing to hear someone tell you not to cheer because they were not our team. If the judges take into consideration the entertainment of the corps without getting the fans involved . ( kind of what they do with difficulty ) its not really on the sheet . we might be on on the right path.

By some.... yes. Even if Drum Corps " merged with the "Rodeo", some would still insist that it is " Drum Corps "... not " a bunch of bull ".

Your insistence that a solo must "make sense" without "stick tricks" is starting to annoy a little. Drumline visuals are put in for a lot of reasons--to impress other lines with creativity, to look good, to play a visual joke on the audience, etc. as well as and et cetera. Can we maybe agree that they guys who put the visuals into the dolo wanted thm there in the first place and considerd them part of the furniture? I don't exactly know from what position of lily-white purity you'd like your drumlines to emanate, but do you obsess about hairstyles in the Swimsuit Edition as well? Backsticking and cross-drumming have been around since time immemorial, so you're kind of shouting at the rain if you think of drumlines without stick visuals. Shall we call you Miss Havisham from now on?

Hahaha...really? That's all that it's about? Do you have a direct link to Mason on this issue. This may be the funniest thing I have read on here in a while. Don't get me wrong, a win would be nice, but that's priority number 1? You must not have attended any of the association meetings or spoken directly with people that know the objectives of the corps. Besides that...how does putting a little red in the uniform hinder that. Take a look at last years uniform, I would venture to say that if you looked at some old pictures of the Scouts you may seem some parts of the uniform that look exactly the same.

Actually, I ignored them as they are one of the top 3. I only mentioned Cavies to support my argument. Brasso's thought was that (paraphrased) "people are sick of the same corps winning and want excitement back at the finals decision". My answer is...rise up to challenge the best and take it from them! As Boo pointed out in the sleeve notes on the DVD...this was the highest scoring top 12 in DCI history...the problem for so many of the challengers was that the top 3 took it up another notch. All of this is great for drum corps....not orchestrating selections for the sake of thrilling endings.

Bingo.

I think you are both right in this case. Yes, a whistle is an aerophone like a flute, but it through usage it is also a percussion instrument, as its purpose is for sound effects, like other auxiliary percussion. auxiliary percussion

To you maybe. Not to me

The corps that did it WAS doing it all season... That is probably why there was no difference between Friday and Saturday. My guess is they had the balance where they wanted it by then.

This paragraph capsulizes the entire "rub" of those that are against "all things G7". The motivation is honest and well placed but the argument is (if I can borrow your term)...stale. First of all, this is NOT going to cause the demise of DCI...just because some old bods (I'm one too) on DCP say so. The influence of DCI is international and it is yet to be tapped and brought into the fold. This will happen when they figure out how to make it cost effective. Additionally, the argument that the stands are full of largely old MM's that must be catered to in order to survive is... poppy ####. If DCI is nothing more than a memory machine and corps need to #### well play and march within some framework of acceptabilty...it will be stale. Thank God for a few corps willing to buck the tide of sameness. Finally, your argument about "movement in placements", though factual , is flawed. This ain't T-ball. You win because you're the best...not because it's your turn. You want to drive away fans..go ahead and make a corps the champion that is not deserving simply for a new face or "excitement of the unpredictable". Yes, I know as well as anyone the ABBD sentiment at finals...I get it. I also know that won't change as long as it's in Indy. But giving the championship to the Cavies wouldn't satisfy your argument either, they're still one of those top 3. What you should be asking is...where are the designs that are championship worthy other than the usual suspects? Yes, Bloo made a run this year and in some other year would have won. CC made a run last year and some other year would have won....but other than PR's brief moment, we have what we have. PR, SCV and Madison are re-building and will challenge sometime soon, but I don't think... tomorrow. Bloo and CC might... if they fight the urge to go traditional. So...you want exciting competition? Unpredicablity? Encourage the designers to push the envelop and stop dumbing down the effort by attempting to punish those that do.

I give it til the thread I just started about rules proposals results

well, 8 more for 8 of them. the other 15, well, sorry guys, stay on the road and incur costs while making no money

That's good. You're probably one of the few though, and that's sad. But Perc2100 put it best. When the stands are mostly empty at the beginning of shows, the fans send a clear message. I know every corps out there appreciates the support, and the world would be a better place if everyone showed up at the start of every show and stayed there the whole time, but that's just not the way it is. DCI has taken what the fans are giving them, highest show attendance for the Top 8, and have constructed extra shows just featuring those 8. According to ticket sales and attendance records, it's what the fans want, even if they won't say it aloud.

Thank you. See, I'm in the same boat as you. FWIW, I'm a member of one of the Top 8, and I was jumping at the chance for more shows, more chances to perform. That's why I'm in this, being able to perform at a top level with my best friends all summer, so I still think this is a great thing. Nothing against the lower corps, I've been in that position to perform in front of empty stands, but even then, there's no way I would turn down the chance to perform more, or see more drum corps over the summer. Wasn't everyone complaining about the lowering number of shows per summer? Well, here it is. More shows, 8 more, enjoy them.

I removed a sentence, modified a sentence or 4, and added a sentence to sum up my views on this...Charlie had it almost all right in my eyes

well considering 7 of them put forth a proposal to get rid of Open Class...... think they just changed their minds overnight? 2 of these guys talked of a concept like this in 1997

ok...you're in the G8 for a few years...you get the perks...suddenly, you may be kicked out. look at what you lose if you're kicked out.,..the extra income, and in time probably the extra power. so wouldnt you come up with a proposal to ensure you stay in? I would

well it was for the top 8, and those positions rarely change...so who is to say anyone is willing to change the status quo in time to guarantee their survival?

Nor do I. It's the logistics I'm asking about. For those corps not serving meals to members at camp, what sort of break is taken to allow members to buy something? Must they travel far for fast food or a grocery store? Is a bus provided? Or maybe packing a weekend's meals isn't the logistical hurdle I thought it was (even though 200 or more need to store, prep and dispose of four or five meals)? What about staff and volunteers? What is the procedure used by corps not serving meals at camp so that members can eat over the weekend? I've only seen the feed-them-all model. Someone enlighten me. HH

Because I was responding to the quote by a judge in the post I was answering. It was a quoted statement made by a judge. I then added that I thought another judge had said much the same. You really ought to practice reading for comprehension. Hardly obtuse.

1. Costs. -Tours are too long and too far in between. DCI needs to re-focus on local circuits (perhaps a resurrection of DCM/DCE etc?), parades and shows. Corps need to start doing other gigs rather than making a show so difficult they need to practice 24/7 without performing in other events to make money. Corps should be FORCED to take local talent over imported. Perhaps this would force the issue of a more local approach and bring costs int line. 2. Defined product. -DCI needs to find itself and have an identity. If it's nothing more than glorified marching band without woodwinds they are in trouble. They absolutely need to have shows that people WANT to go and see en-mass. Drum corps is already a niche activity, there is NO sense trying to be even more so. 3. Kids being left out and potential fans and revenues lost. -People that want to march, and don't make the corps they WANT to march with simply will not (for the most part and for good reason) shell out 3k for a summer. Unless DCI starts taking a ground up approach they will not survive. Right now DCI is simply living off the VFW corps(e) and now we are down to the last few. Not every corps needs to be a top 12 wanna-be and should not always try and be.

I really have been thinking about this and have to ask, but how many people on here that are truly against the TOC, and have been doing all of this campaigning against it and writing on here, are actually from one of these Top 8 corps? How many people are from one of them, and are still planning to abandon their alma mater corps over this proposal? Or how many are from a lower down corps, and see this only as elitism and a power grab? Just had to ask this.

I'm sorry; did I miss your rules for posting? As long as I follow the DCP Terms of Service, you have no business telling me how to post. You're welcome to disagree, and we can go from there. Until then, find me a more boring corps year after year after year, and I'll be glad to comment on that.

I get to have some fun going up against Jeff on this one! Many Wind Instruments have been placed in the Percussion section by Orchestral Composers; but that does not make them Percussion Instruments, they are still technically Wind Instruments. Here are definitions from Merriam-Webster proving my contention: Percussion: The Beating or Striking of an Instrument; Percussion Instrument: A Musical Instrument making sound by Striking, Shaking, or Scraping. Wind Instrument: A Musical Instrument making sound by wind; especially the Player’s Breath. So if they are fine by you to be in the percussion section of a Drum Corps, it appears to me that you are you willing to accept "non-percussion, non-brass wind instruments" in the Drum And Bugle Corps activity. Correct?

You know those posts that you put up and then edit and write "nevermind..."? This should have been one of those posts. And honestly I'm confused about this. Are you upset because Madison can't feed their kids during camp and you don't want it mentioned OR is it because Madison CAN feed their kids and someone keeps asking if they do? Just be clear let us know what you know!

Windjammers Port Washington, WI

Mello-Dears Owego, NY 1970

Madison Scouts at 1965 VFW Nationals

Manhattanaires Manhattan, NY

Royal Lancers Shelton, CT

Silver Falcons Stamford, CT

Norwood Park Imperials Norwood, IL

St. Mary's Cardinals Beverly, Mass. 1965

Avant Garde

1981 World Open

Fantasia III Little Falls, NJ

Troopers

Les Diplomates

Audubon Bon Bons

St. Joe's "Peanuts" on parade in Batavia, NY 1965

Logan Square Chicago, IL (photo more than likely from sometime in the 40's, possibly late 30's) Trivia question about Logan Square, This 1960's, early 70's powerhouse, now under a different name was the direct descendent of Logan Square, anyone know who?