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Careful, young Jedi, for pitting those touched by the force against each other is sure to destroy the house of DCI. Maybe from the beer-swilling perspective your analogy pitting the symphony and NASCAR crowds makes sense, but as an official wine conny-sewer I say it's all hogwash. Just open the DCI program to the listing of Friends of DCI to see the equivalent of the symphony crowd of patrons and supporters. That list is proof that the two classes you endeavor to so carefully separate do, in fact, exist homogeneously in DCI. In fact, the "patron class" exists happily right along-side the beer-class rabble not in the loge or corporate suites of up-high, but down in the stands where the show is best (albeit with a generally better vantage point thanks to the perks of their honoraria, than the typical beer-swilling belcher). In this case we are more akin to the symphony crowd. We don't "sit silently" except as expected during the performance, just as is the case of the black-tied symphony patron. We scream just as loudly as the lower classes ala U2/NASCAR crowd. Want proof? Then look at the crowd pan of 2008 just after The Voice announced second place. Right there, next to tunnel portal #6, with arms in air, mouth open screaming, and head tilted back in thanks to the honorable drum Gods for PR's win, were me and my son, and about a hundred-and-fifty other "rich patrons". Yet you couldn't tell the difference between us and the rabble in that moment. We like it that way. While we're glad to see one another at the shows, we don't leave at intermission after "being seen"; in fact we usually stay until after encores. (Bill Cook was in section 340 last year, a few rows up from my seats. And I saw him applauding like a 16 year old during Star Alum's performance, even if his T-shirt had lesser arm-pit stains.) We don't hold our noses up (even if I do look to see that they spelled my name right in the program). We don't whine about not attaining government grants, and while we don't seek out Foundation Grants we do provide funding for grants to students who can't afford to pay the fee to march. In fact, you don't even know we're there, and we might be standing right next to you. But you'll certainly miss us if DCI ignores us and/or drives us away. Because simple math should tell you how many non-"rich patrons" it would take to replace just one of us; it takes 20 additional fans, buying the $125 seats at finals, to make up for a single Platinum-level "rich patron", not including the purchases of additional Friends tickets our souvie-booth purchases. And there are about 80 of them at that contribution level. That's 1600 fans - roughly 10% of finals attendance - needed to replace our snootie-dom. Not an easy task in "normal" times, and certainly nearly impossible in these times of declining attendance. Anyone reading this, whether from the symphony or U2/NASCAR crowd - should see the futility in this line of thinking if they are considering the future of our unique activity. For ours is a combination fan base, made up of all classes, symbiotically necessary for the health and long-term success of the activity. To ignore either one is as detrimental as ignoring the other. DCI would do best to continue to listen to, embrace, and program for the enjoyment of, both. Thus ends the lesson.

Ahhh, but remember Master Orderone Cannoli that 5,000 wine spillers are the maximum number who attend any given symphony concert, and they sit silently and quietly on their hands with their mouths shut for 45 minutes (with people giving them annoying looks for even coughing) and only stand, clap, and say Bravo at the end of that 45 minuets. Whereas 100,000 beer drinking fans attend each U2 concert or competitive event like NASCAR and those fans whoop, holler, and spill beer throughout the entire event. And moreover, U2 and NASCAR are self-sufficient money making ticket selling machines whereas Symphonies need Foundations Grants, Rich Patrons, and Government Grants to even dream about surviving. So, IMO, if DCI wants to claim Major League Status and perform at Pro Stadiums attracting 60,000 fans to Finals, they need to start appealing to the Major League ticket buyers who attend music concerts like U2 or competitive activities like NASCAR.

I try my least

Don't you remember? DCI was selling 70,000 tickets to Finals back then, and the records from Finals were always topping Billboard's charts. It's always been a niche activity. The niche now might be smaller, but not appreciably so (the crowds at VFW Finals were there because it was part of a much bigger convention, not because drum corps was considered mainstream entertainment). It's been pointed out a million times that the audience for drum corps is people who are involved, or were involved in doing it. You want bigger audiences, increase the number of corps and participants. Any strategy that doesn't focus on creating new corps is wasting time.

> drum corps has had some alum go out in the other worlds of music and have great success. Some??? How about A Lot!!! I have friends that gig in NY, LA, and all over the world, and you would be surprised at how many fellow professional musicians they perform with who marched in a drum corps. To me, this is where DCI is missing the marketing boat!!!

I didn't take any umbrage with your use of Fred Morris (of the Troopers, not to be confused with Fred Morrison of the Crossmen for those trying to follow along!). I got your point, so no worries. I guess my next question is this: Can you count on me for what? Going to shows? YES! Talking publicly about what I hear is coming out of certain corps' leadership? Nope. Can't do it. I will always let the Troopers organization represent itself when it comes to their business. I am very happy to work within the bounds of alumni business and do what I can to support the corps, but I would be mistaken if I thought it was my place to discuss the opinions of anyone associated with the corps. Having said that, do I think most corps would benefit from a more open presence in places like DCP? Personally, my answer is "yes." I think part of the problem we face as an activity is a lack of info-dumping. I think DCI and drum corps (plural) need to saturate as many forms of media as possible and demonstrate what they do. Leave the "why we do it" for those special reflective moments and just let people experience it. We need more public video access - viral video is a must. We need drum corps embassadors who can read their audience immediately and speak specifically with that audience with great facility, sincerity and charm. DCI and corps need to generate easily-digestible language that speaks to various fan bases and tweak the message accordingly. As for the "one solution," I suppose I have some thoughts there, too: 1. Level the competitive playing field by trimming off some points in the design-oriented captions. Give more control of the points to the bodies on the field. 2. Take out the synths. I won't lie - I don't like them, period. I gave them a shot, and I think they are pointless. (not trying to start the debate - we all know where that will go) But I actually have what I think is a logical reason to eliminate them: They aren't entirely controlled by the bodies on the field. It's bad enough that design teams are part of the scoring process, but now we've got a staff member directly controlling balance in competition. I don't like that one bit. 3. Do something, ANYTHING, to stop the slotting from year to year. Make outcomes less predictable and people will want to watch. That's just a few starter ideas.

Cool! Sounds good to me too!

Sounds good to me. If they can get a "concert" sound from horns baked in the sun and bouncing around the field at 180bpm, then I'm definitely interested in hearing it. Thanks for posting that! Mike

Hey, where's the Line of Sight window on the trumpet? I missed that. Cheap junk. Yamaha has Line of Sight on all of their horns. In fact, they even have it on their new Sfz snares! (yes, I'm a drummer. How can you tell?)

And there is nothing wrong with it being a ham & eggs activity.

Rock today is not like Buddy Holly and the Crickets of yester-year. It "drastically" changed over time into groups like U2 and the aforementioned Lady GaGa to stay relevant; and so should drum corps change, not into a non-marching organization, but change to stay relevant or it will certainly die as a relic.

I cannot wait to see the Crown Guard!!!!

> if I wanna watch a rock show, I can go watch a rock show. Yes, and about 1000 times more people are willing to pay hundreds of bucks each to go see that rock show. > If the point of the whole thing is that you need to change it into something completely different, that already exists, it might as well go ahead and die it's death and everyone go watch what they want, or start up whatever "and the kitchen sink" circuit they want. No, the activity does not have to cause a corps to completely morph into a rock band. The point is if incorporating elements of what the paying public want to see and hear (into an existing drum corps platform) will bring in more ticket sales, what is the problem? All the same, it is called the free market, and if you do not provide what the paying public desires, the activity will die. And apparently what you are saying is that you would rather the drum corps activity to die than allow the expansion of something as innocuous as some rock band showmanship and musical elements.

Not me. I prefer drum corps to sound like semi-tuned chainsaws. Oh, you weren't being serious? There's nothing wrong with taking a concert sound to the field. A "concert sound" is one that is produced with good tone, clarity of projection and a sense of musicality. Add to that sound the impact of a drum corps and you've got nirvana. I'd rather hear a concert sound than the buzzing of a few dozen constipated kazoos. Let's bring a great drum corps sound indoors. I would love to hear a major symphonic conductor some day heap praise on his orchestra for sounding like a well-tuned, expressive drum corps. Hearing a good concert sound on the field does not mean one has forfeited the excitement we know and love.

> it's just amazing to see the inconsistencies between what die-hards say regarding growing the activity, and what they say regarding how they want it to look like it did back when they marched. That should be the posted tag line on every discussion concerning the future of the DCI activity!!!!! Thanks, Lance!

Not the Green Monster!!! NOOOOoooooo..... You are ruining my reputation as the ---->

If this mainstream audience did not care for drum corps in the 80s and 90s, why would we expect them to like 80s and 90s drum corps now? Just because DCP wishes it so? HH

It's not just because DCI isn't listening to the customer...it's because they aren't listening to the VAST majority of customers. DCI does have many customers, but the overwhelming mass of them have been fans for longer than 7 years...back when electric was a no-no. Those that marched in the late 90's are considered dino's now...those people are only 32 or 33 years old. A 1980 age out marcher is now only 51 years old. It's not like the fan base is eroding because of deaths. Adding electric had nothing to do with drawing in new customers. All it's basically done is force (yes, force) corps to spend more money on toys. It's just an attempt (and a succeeding one, so far) to turn drum corps into elite BOA. Those marchers from the 70's, 80's and 90's, and heck, the early 2000's didn't march BOA in the summer...they marched drum corps.

That may be, but if the customer doesn't want the business owner to be an ###, the customer shouldn't be an ### either, or they may get someone spiteful enough to spit in their food.

Very few things in life are "necessary" yet many things are desired. I desire the occasional stick trick regardless of whether or not it is meaningful to the performance. On that we will have to agree to disagree. I also don't need an aural interpretation of a *Doctoral Dissertation on "An Analytical Study of Bass Drum Sounds" when I listen to a drum solo. It doesn't really need to accomplish anything for that matter either, after all it's just a drum solo. Just lay down a good groove with some clean notes and an occasional stick flash and I'll be happy. It's drumming, not rocket science. * DDM index no. 1588, University of Northern Colorado, 1982

Wow! You wouldn't be in business for long. I have been in retail for over 30 years now and have seen many many retailers fail because they didn't recognize what the customer wanted and that the custome IS ALWAYS right; first and foremost. It isn't the 11th commandment; in retail, it's the first commandment. And don't think DCI isn't a retailer; they are selling a unique form of entertainment to a very limmited market base, although sometimes they aren't very entertaining. As a customer, I want to be entertained. I want recognizable music. I want MEMORABLE music and I want memorable creative drill design and spectacular effects. And I want it of high quality and clean. If I don't get what I want or if the value of what I get is not meeting my demands or expectations, I'll stop going to shows. Overall it is getting close to not meeting my expectations.

you seem to think that most of the people against the last 2 BD offerings don't like the shows because they don't like BD...you constantly beat that horse...and frankly, that's just not the case. People don't like the shows because they don't like the shows. Sure, there's some petty, pea-whit out there that hate's BD because they are BD, but the preponderance of people that don't like the shows is because they just don't like them. I like BD...just not lately. 2007 was when their shows started going downhill, for me...

I agree with you 100% right up until the last NOTE. IMO, a show can be accessible AND new, fresh, something we've never seen before. It's just another element of design that those tasked with need to figure out. I see no reason why we need to continue to pigeon-hole and segregate "fan friendly" and "avante guarde" as if they're oil and water. I understand that generally, that's the way of things. But you seem to be saying that BD's design team can't push the envelope without leaving people in the stands scratching their heads wondering what the hell just happened. I don't buy that.

We understand you don't like electronics...but you don't have to bash the corps. Instead of coming on this thread and complaining about which corps you don't want to see, why don't you instead tell us what corps you are excited for? Keep the comments positive !

true...Bridgemen drummers weren't all that good..they coulda used the practice. Spirit was bad too, in that era. yeah, crowds just hate showmanship. it's much better to be technically superior...and sterile. but who cares, right? it's just the crowd...

I looked into your mind... ... through a glass..... .... darkly.

Wild looking arms to the heavens visual where the snares and tenors are all playing different parts of a simple and loud rhythm so the visual no longer matches the sound. It ends up looking like the wind uo monkey doll. It was super cool when BD first did it in circa '94, but it got beat into the ground to the point that even ScoJo gets annoyed with it. I've seen Scott johnson roll his eyes at monkey drumming questions over the last 10 years.

Let him know the "Current Agreement"? He did not ask about the "Current Agreement". Feel free to enlighten him on the "Current Agreement" though, since you feel it is so important. People need to relax around here. To jump in such a negative way is not necessary. The OP asked a question, and it was answered with quotes and fact. simple and straight forward.

Dissociation of drum corps with scholastic marching band is a much more feasible idea that would accomplish the same goal, since as long as they remain linked (something DCI actively purports) that notion is likely to remain. But that's another topic entirely.

Anyway, did anyone actually read the article in the original post? I'm sure we can all agree that the ideas of tension and release, and reward, as mentioned in the article are highly applicable to drum corps show design, whether or not you want to tarnish them with the "scientific" moniker or not.

Absolutely not. There's immense room for variaton. Thinking long term, it might be the only thing they can afford at this point. Get better researchers.

Also keep in mind that such art isn't (or shouldn't be) trying to evoke the same reaction that a drum corps show is (or shoud, or used to).

I don't think there needs to be a study in that, I'd say different background, values, and beliefs are sufficient factors.

Yes, but for now I'm mostly concerned with programming for live performances.

It's worth a shot, as an experiment, sure.

Chances of that are excrutiatingly minimal, so I would have absolutely zero qualms about letting that happen if that's what the data suggest.

Right, cause the drum corps activity would move along just swimmingly without audiences...

Speaking as a 50 year old, I don't give a rat's arse where they park their busses, where they rehearse, or where their kids are from. The are the Madison Scouts. Period. I do NOT understand why more people here don't applaud corps like Madison, Blue Stars, and Boston for making decisions to ensure their survival. Don't folks realize that without these kinds of moves, corps like this would probably end up on the "Dead Corps List" like so many others who did NOT adapt to the changing world???? Sheesh!

Too much wild conjecture going on here, I must interject. First, there seems to be much discussion that somehow Bill Cook is involved in the decision for the corps to be in Bloomington. While a great fan of drum corps and, of course, a close friend of James Mason, Bill is not involved with the Madison Scouts. He's has visited the corps rehearsal from time-to-time to support our great staff and see a good drum corps being developed. That's about it folks. The former Star Hall (now called the WACPAC) is a property owned by the Cook Group (amongst many others). It is available for lease. It's current tenants are the Mason Entertainment Group and the Madison Scouts. We both pay rent to use the facility and store equipment there. It's at market rate. It's not inexpensive, but a good value for what we get in return. Many corps have leased it for a week or two over the past several years. It is far from an ideal housing facility (small, rough fields) but it does very well for the rigors of a drum corps. I've talked with many alumni about the perceptions of rehearsing in Madison. They are often surprised by the actual ways we rehearse today, and upon hearing that, gain a better understanding of why we have made the decisions to do what we do. Let me share some of those key point: 1. When the corps rehearses (camps or spring training) it is 24/7 drum corps. They do not house with local families or go out to State Street in the evenings. Fun as all that was then, it is a different activity with different training standards. As well, there are also serious organization liability considerations that are far more encompassing then they were even 10 years ago. What that means is that we need facilities that can house the entire corps, enable us to provide food services, and have the facilities that enable us to rehearse properly. 2. The composition of all drum corps is extremely diverse geographically. This is both members and staff. If you want the best, you need the ability to pull them from all over North America and the World. What this means, is you need to rehearse within a reasonable distance to a major and affordable airport. If you have traveled through Madison's airport, you can attest it is not inexpensive or convenient. About half the membership and most of the staff flies into a rehearsal camp. It's pretty simple equation when you have members evaluating their total costs to march a drum corps. The difference of paying $250 to fly into Indy versus $500+ to fly into Madison will make a difference in their decision. 3. Being competitive in today's drum corps is about maximizing the time you have available. If you lose a camp due to weather, it can make a significant impact on your corps. So weather does play a key factor. Indiana is not ideal, but it's a major improvement over Wisconsin in terms of winter weather. 4. If you want to be a competitive drum corps you have to be able to work on movement and drill year round. That means you need access to an indoor facility for that, or have warm enough weather to make that happen. Ideally such a facility is close enough to minimize the challenges involved in moving 150 people at a time when you have no buses. 5. Drum corps are noisy and irritating, especially when they are training 24/7. THIS IS A BIG ISSUE. Communities are becoming less and less tolerant of having a corps rehearse in their backyard. It's novel and fun to watch when it's only a few hours. It's a public nuisance when they rehearse from 9a - 10p for 30 days straight with Dr. Beat pounding over the loud speakers. Having a facility that is remote and away from the public ear is an ideal situation. Before the corps rehearsed in Bloomington, it rehearsed in Baraboo, WI (50 miles north of Madison) until they kicked us out. Before that we rehearsed in Whitewater, WI (90 miles from Madison) until they kicked us out. During winter camps we rehearsed at Madison Country Day School...until they kicked us out. All those places "loved" the Madison Scouts, they just didn't want us rehearsing there anymore. Regardless of our relationship with James Mason, the corps was in desperate need of finding new options for rehearsal and there were absolutely NO OPTIONS being made available to us in Madison. Madison City Schools....NO WAY. University of Wisconsin....NO WAY. A few private facilities we explored...NO WAY. The decisions we made are not "scary", but very practical ones that have been made to the benefit of the organization. Our success on the field last season can be directly attribute to our improved off-season training routine. The matter of the corps' connection to the City of Madison is much more complex. The dynamics of the activity have evolved far beyond the organizational structures and intent of drum corps and their communities when they were founded. It's not just the Madison Scouts, but almost every corps in the activity. Our response is to develop other ways in which our organization can serve the Madison community, not the corps proper. We are rolling out a number of programs that are focused on this very thing. The corps can be a poster-child for the organization, but it will no longer be able to serve the community in the same manner it did when it was started or even up through about the 80s. Lastly, the corps was not on its way of "folding" before last season. In fact, we had a very successful financial year in 2009. We had well set in place a new course for correcting many of the historical financial challenges the corps faced long before last season. The strategy with James Mason and rehearsing in Bloomington were all about correcting our programming direction. Rehearsing down in Bloomington was not financial decision but a programming decision. I'd be more than happy to address any individual questions you may have by emailing me. Chris Komnick Executive Director Madison Scouts ckomnick@madisonscouts.org

Thanks Terri! I think this green-red thing is a joke, so I have fun with it! But thanks anyway for the green!

showmanship...no...elements, meaning more speakers, guitars, synths? yes...because it WILL be dead already. This isn't rock and roll, or hip-hop, or death metal. It's drum corps. You could take every drum corps out there, and dress them in confederate flags and have them play Freebird and Sweet Home Alabama, and you won't bring in redneck number one....because it's drum corps. You can walk up to 10,000 people in the street, and ask them if they like drum corps. 9,999 don't even know what it is, nor do they care. If you gave them free tickets, they still wouldn't go. It's the 1 person that loves that horn sound...that drum sound that you have to get to the shows. The thing is, they probably are already fans, and they already attend shows...until that unique horn and drum sound is taken away from them...and then there are once again 10,000 people that don't care about drum corps any more...because it won't be drum corps...it will be something else. Drum corps passion is a finite element that's dispersed to a very small crowd. Changing drum corps into something else isn't going to "bring in the masses". All it's gonna do is turn away your current fans.

Yawn...

Enough of that already. Mason wants to win, and in order to do that in 2011 you must innovate not recreate.

Hot dog sales went up when they announced they would be adding even more electronics to their show. No Thank you.

I wonder if their trumpets are still stuffy, esp. in the upper range?

> Drum corps will never be mainstream. it can improve some things as far as getting more involved in communities and getting some added support there, and maybe alter some programming choices and win some fans lost back, but it will never do business like Britney Spears or an Eagles reunion. If, as you contend, drum corps will never be able to reach the main-stream fans, then the amount of revenue it takes to keep the high quality professional-level exhibited by the top DCI corps cannot be sustained no matter what DCI attempts to do. Therefore, if that is the case, there are only two options available: either the quality of drum corps' within DCI will have to revert back to a local scholastic community musical ensemble level, or die on the vine from attempting professional level quality without the capital to sustain.

I want to be amazed. Please provide a specific example (cite a user) of a die-hard fan being inconsistent regarding growing the activity and how they want it to look like it did back when they marched. I could be wrong (really), but I suspect that your interpretation of what they're saying may be a factor in your assessment.