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Thank you for your heart felt opinions. We may differ in our point of views but ultimately we all want what's best for Drum Corps. For what it’s worth I don’t fear change in DCI one bit. My greatest fear and in my honest opinion the only real fear we face is that we end up with nothing. If DCI can go from 400+ corps to 40+ in 25 years, only the very naïve amongst you would say going from 40+ to zero will never happen. In an ideal world the G8 wouldn’t exist, 50yd line finals tickets would cost well under $100, venues would be sold out, we’d be looking forward to what 27th were planning in 2011 and there would still be hundreds of marching units teaching kids the joys of Drum Corps throughout not just North America but the whole world. However, since when have we lived in an ideal world... the 1950s before our youth got corrupted by those 4 boys from Liverpool with very bad haircuts? The phrase “Change or Die” is a brutal phrase but it applies to all walks of life from individuals like you and me to the largest of multinational corporations. The world we live in is ever changing, it’s constantly evolving in many different ways some good, some not so good. This includes what the world now regards as entertainment. It’s been said on DCP many times that even during the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s Drum Corps was still a niche activity. Not forgetting that back then there wasn’t anything like the many other types of entertainment Drum Corps has for competition today. I think DCI has recognised this, almost certainly they’re seeing it on their bottom line. Recent history tells us that DCI has attempted change… Bb, synths etc. but these changes clearly haven’t been enough to buck the trend. Hence the reason why we now find ourselves confronted by the looming shadows of the G8 and the Tour of Champions series… not forgetting the possible introduction of the so called “clap-o-meter caption”. I understand the criticism aimed at DCI and the G8 but I would argue that their motivation doesn’t stem from greed but from self-preservation. “To hell with the rest of you we’re going to look after ourselves” can often be associated with an agenda based on greed but it can also be applied to those who genuinely fear for their future. I think it’s proper and correct to criticise actions based on greed (in all walks of life not just Drum Corps) but to criticise those who fear for their very existence is wrong. We’re all entitled to our opinion on what the G8 is about. This is mine, it’s neither wrong nor right, it’s just an opinion. Finally… DCI and its member corps find themselves in a position where there is no going back, there is no standing still, the only direction available to them is forward. They must change or at least attempt change… or die. T.

There will not be an end to drum corps (DCI/DCA). There are way too many supporting fans, and as long as there is marching bands in high school's, there will be drum corps.

Fans in the 60s left because of the 70s and fans of the 70s for something that changed in the 80s and so on. This is natural as people age and don't agree with change in what they considered " Their " activity. Now with that being said, the problem is replacing those who support or CHOSE to leave. Drum Corps has always catered to and attracted a very small niche of supporters over the years which has dwindled away and NOT just because of instrumentation, design choices or what color flag is being waved . Yes there are those who have left the activity for some of those reasons BUT, I believe the support and post war interest in the activity is and has been dying off. This is a very hard issue which I do believe directors as well as SOME of the powers to be are working on but may be pulling at straws trying to find an answer. It's very hard for ANYONE to assume to know the answers without being involved in the day to day operations of running a project such as a drum corps But I do think all options could or should be heard to possibly help. I think the activity as we may have known it will change , there's no doubt about that as to will it survive maybe, maybe not. Will it ever be as we remember it? Probably NOT. Times change, people change, wants and needs of the public differ generation to generation. I say do what you have to and allow this activity to survive, whatever form it takes. I spoke to someone I marched with in the late 70s a few weeks ago and they were so angry at the direction and wanted to see it die rather than change, I risked a longtime friendship by stating how selfish I thought that was. Oh well, everyone has and is entitled to an opinion and you know what they say about opinions.....lol.......JMO

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Ever notice when people give a personal opinion there's alwys " ALOT" of others that agree with them....lol...O well certainly human nature. I've been in this a very long time. My question is , why do many people feel such an entitlement? I hear all the arguments how " This isn't drum corps, Well who decided what its is the members of the 60s....70s...80s.....40s...who? I also remember the ones who came before me saying that about the 70s and 80s.....Again human nature.

We weren't that big a surprise in 1987 - considering we finished 15th in 1986 and the 13th & 14th place corps (Les Eclipses and 27th Lancers) both folded in 1987 we were in essence only sitting in 13th going into the season which meant we only needed to beat 1 corps to make finals, and we started the season off by beating both Phantom and Sky Ryders in our 1st show. now in 1986 we were a big surprise, although we didn't make finals, we did improve 13 places and scored 10 points higher than in 1985.

http://promo.espn.go.com/espn/contests/infiniti/2011/ Hey Guys! One of our board members, Jim Williams, is also active in helping Samaritan's Feet provide shoes for people in desperate need. I know there are a lot of good charities on here and no matter what coach you like or dislike, you will be helping out a great cause. Coach Calipari is representing Samaritan's Feet. He has coached games without shoes on this season to bring this issue to light. Carolina Crown is also supporting Samaritan's Feet through some philanthropic ventures with some of our events and viral media. Could you help Samaritan's Feet by simply using that link? You simply provide ESPN with some pretty basic info and then you can opt out of the junk emails etc at the bottom if you want to. BTW Jim is a huge supporter of drum corps. He marched in Black Watch and the Matadors and was instrumental in bringing a DCA show to the Winston-Salem area a few years ago. Please help us, help Jim and Samaritan's Feet. Your time voting is appreciated. Thanks, as always, for your support. Sincerely,

lol He sure showed them!

Sorry, but you are incorrect: Chad Sexton of the rock group 311 (former Sky Ryder), Chris Martin of the Chicago Symphony (former Spirit), and Pete Simpson of the Blue Man Group (former Trooper) have all done those types of promos for DCI; they were just placed on an edited DCI finals DVD and not placed on on broadcast/cable stations as PSA announcements (which again are "free" adds to run).

Gas prices about tripled in the mid 70s, insurance regulations added costs, costs of equipment kept going up (especially as there were less corps to buy used from), economy tanked in the industrial areas, downhill slide of historic sponsors (AL, VFW, churchs) especially in the cites continued. Prices at shows went up from being really cheap (IOW could compete with movies, etc, etc) for an evening entertainment to *ouch* for a family. What I saw in the late 70s in the NY/PA Sr area was shows were held by local groups as a big time fund raiser. As costs went up the ticket prices went up and less warm bodies showsed up. In out of the way areas there wasn't too many people to draw from so the show soon became a money loser or not that great as a fund raiser. So as shows went away, corps had to travel further away which added to the bus bill (along with higher gas). Corps had to ask for more contest money which cut into a shows profits so (repeat vicious cycle). Also some corps from small towns had shows as their big budget maker so as their show went downhill so did their budget (and corps). Most corps I know of died off because their budget went out of site and lack of memebrs due to economy. Along with Boy Scouts, youth sports went to crap since I grew up in the 60s (born in late 1950s).

Ahh there's your problem. It doesn't keep the activity alive, it just changes it into something else.

'cuz they suck?

Be sure to check out Part 2 of DrumChattr's podcast with Ian Grom. http://drumchattr.com/?p=1699 Let us know what you think! Dave Gerhart

Thanks a bunch!

We are lucky people MikeD, very lucky people.

Quoting for emphasis! Since Mello Dude took down his picture, I revoke my comments about the post.

yes the economy sucks. but there's a lot more reasons the crowds are down. the economy sucked in the late 70's too, and crowds were bigger than today. and while yes, you have shows that meet all of the above you list, the percentages of shows that fall into each category are far more towards the type that are turning people off than the type that are turning people on.

I think the problem that exists in this conversation is that some of us seem to think that there is only one thing that the fans want. That's simply not the case. Some fans want flashy, theme driven and charismatic shows. Others like shows with more (for lack of a better term) intellectual shows. Some like crazy drill and virtuosic music. What is entertaining to some fans is boring to others. I know plenty of people who absolutely loved the Cadets show last year. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who hated it. I know plenty of people who loved SCV last year, and plenty of people who hated it. So to say DCI needs be more entertaining really means that some groups of people have decided that they want all of the top 12 shows to be exactly what they want, and that's their answer to driving ticket sales. I understand the concept of the crowd reaction, but having gone to a lot of drum corps shows with a lot of different drum corps fans, I can tell you that in my experience, the people who like shows like SCV's show from last year, aren't as vocal during shows because they are more driven by little nuances and don't want to miss those little details in the show. Others who are more into the showy flashy types of shows tend to cheer louder because they are looking for a more primal kind of experience. The fact is, some corps try to be intellectual and appeal to the nerds in the crowd. Other corps try to wow the audience and go for the more surface level reaction. Still others try to draw an audience with sheer amazing things that they can do with their instruments. There are lots of ways to design a show, and sometimes these methods work really well, and sometimes they fail. But if you really think that what you want is what the entire crowd wants, you are mistaken because DCI's audience is way too diverse to pin down exactly what entertains them. The crowds aren't there because the economy sucks, and because DCI is trying to hard to make the activity a mainstream art form, which it will never be.

I disagree. I'm tired of being told I'm wrong if I dont like it. So are many others

Cesario disagrees. http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=b02b1971-d3ec-4104-b5d0-e7cdd1df032b

yes it is. yes you need the kids. but you need paying customers too. amazing how that works. try having DCi finals week, knowing that DCI makes the biggest bunch of it's annual income that week, with less than 10,000 fans. then tell me what kids will have to pay because of it.

well....people pay to see what they like. and if they dont like what's being put out there, then that's their fault?? sorry I dont buy that. I'm all for supporting kids, and even with my current dislike of more than half of what goes on the field, I'll still help sponsor kids. but if fans stop liking something, it's NOT their fault. Remember, in the 90's hanson was hot. then they weren't. Hootie and the Blowfish were huge...then they fell off the face of the Earth. is it the fans fault they stopped liking them? no. it was the "artists" fault for not putting out a product people bought. that's not the kids fault either. as usual, when it comes to a great thing for kids, it's the adults that #### it up. see Little LEague, youth soccer, marching band, you name it

The G bugles of drum corps were pitched a minor third lower than the current Bb horns in use today--not higher. The fact that they were pitched in G has nothing to do, I would imagine, with them being played inside or out, so much as it was a carry-over from the original key of the surplus horns used by the first drum corps groups. They were designed to be played outdoors, to be sure, but so are the Bb/F marching brass of today. Whether or not they were louder is obviously a hard case to make either way, but there seems to be a certain tone color difference that many of us miss who marched back in the day. That difference in tone color could be supported by the fact that orchestras do use different horns to achieve different effects tonally (the reason C trumpets are used so prominently as opposed to Bb, for example--modern trumpeters in America seem to prefer that sound in many instances).

Speaking of memes....

It's a just a joke! For the lulz if you get the meme!

You sound a bit intolerant. I happened to think this snippet clip of a piece of a song here sounded quite good. But if people don't like the music that I like, I wouldn't think of saying that they " don't like Drum Corps... or are " pigheaded ", or " arrogant " or what have you. They either like it, or they don't. It's " pigheaded " in my opinion to think that people just HAVE to like the music that we like.

These are your words are they not?

Hmm, I see context is an issue. You do understand this was in reference to someone that couldn't comprehend any difference from 1995 and 2010 correct?

was that the same limited rehearsal schedule that DCI corps had in the late 70s and early 80s? Yeah because some of those horn lines sounded all ratty and crap. It was probably the lack of rehearsal, right?

Orchestras regularly use higher pitched trumpets than G. Also, European brass bands who play indoors use G quite often. I don't know if they'd agree with your opinion that they were designed for outdoor ensembles. But they're only professional musicians, so what do they know?

NOT YET.. One of the goals of every DCi corps is to some day win or be in contention for the DCI championship. The Cavies probably did not think this back in 1980, 1981 , 1982 . or the Cadets back in 1978 , 1979 or Madison 1986 , finishing 7th and winning 2 years latter. so dont be so fast. not saying the CROSSMEN are going to win DCI in the near future but someday you never know. same as all competing DCI corps.

You asked the question " what is it we are afraid of ? ", and then give only a couple of options, ie 1) " afraid of advent of electronics, G-8 and/ or 2 ) " the fear of fear itself ". There is another thread on DCP that asks us the question " what are the biggest challenges facing Drum Corps ? ". It seems to me that you should be able to ascertain for yourself on that thread what the concerns are that DCP'ers believe is the most challenging to the activity. This thread seems duplicative to me, as you should be able to get the pulse of DCP'ers on that thread. That said, I think's it's fair to say the the radical recommendations of the original G-8 proposal ( eliminate the Open Class Corps, double the vote of some Corps, eliminate the vote of other Corps, alter the revenue sharing structure, hand pick the judges for shows by the G-8, closing down DCI offices, laying off personnel etc ) scared the beejesus out of the rest of the DCI Corps, and resulted in the emergency meeting and the subsequent replacement off the Executive Board of the schemers. There can be little doubt that the DCI Corps Directors themselves have expressed FAR more fear about the future of the activity than any DCP poster on here. That division within the ranks of the DCI Corps Directors regarding what steps the activity should take, remain. So in summary, " the fear " is much more prevalent among the ranks of the DCI Corps Directors than it is here on DCP. More DCI Directors have been booted off the Executive Board of DCI in the last year, than probably booted off DCP in the last year. Frankly, we on DCP seem much more tolerant of one other's opinions and suggestions for the future of the activity than the DCI Corps Directors were,... and remain.

going to a drum corps show, and seeing a marching band show

Going to a drum corps show and not being entertained or getting our money's worth.

I marched 27th in 85/86, and both years I was shocked to hear we hadn't made finals. '85 we knew it would be close, '86 we had a much better show, performed well, and had been beating everyone we needed to. 10th or 11th was expected. To this day I know people who curse the Troopers over this. Never made any sense to me, why blame the Troopers? Whenever I hear this nonsense I make a point of defending you guys. The Troopers did exactly what they were supposed to do: worked their butts off and did the best show they could. Did the judges screw up? Maybe. Back then, the judging was far more inconsistant than it is today. In '86 we were .5 behind Garfield one night and 4.5 behind the next, due almost entirely to different judging panels. Did the judges intentionally screw 27th knowing we were likely to fold? I've never bought into these type of conspiracy theories. If you don't want a corps to beat you, be so much better than them that its impossible for the judges to give you a lower score. 27th simply didn't have the income necessary to survive in an era of full summer tours. In '85 we went on tour with 1 drill instructor, and it wasn't the guy who wrote the show. Same in '86, though we did have Marc Sylvester and George Zingali spend some time with us when they could (they wrote the show, but 27th couldn't afford them on staff full time, they were with Star, I believe, and helped with 27th part time). Other sections were also very short on staff, and we were often very short on sleep due to bus break downs.

Because as we know, every director in DCI wants people to hate drum corps. Every body at DCI is dead set on having drum corps die...

It's been done. And I sincerely hope that's as far as we go.

if they eased up on the difficulty of vis, they might not...

skewerz: That is such an ambiguous statement of opinion because "the sound" is different each era. What Sound defines the activity? Drums exclusively without Bells (1930)? Rotor G (1940)? Valved G (1950-60)? Added Timpani (1970)? Grounded Full range Marimba, Vibes (1980)? Kevlar Drum Heads(1990)? Bb Brass (2000)? What sound era are you referring to, and why is that particular era "the only" definitive sound?

It did not, and should not, affect the player's performance; that is true. Any excellent performer is trained to do their best "at all times". But I will guarantee you it affected how the performers felt internally. The internal feeling of making a great tackle, a great catch, or a great touchdown is vastly different when 100,000 fans scream in a large stadium as apposed to 1500 in that same large stadium. And that feeling, that experience of fan exhilaration, is very important to the memories which live on after the moment passes.

Just couldn't resist could ya? I expect that due to your disdain for the Cadets and their involvement in the G8, you didn't give them the satisfaction of adding a "hit" to their facebook page.

they don't want people to hate drum corps...they just seem not to care. Recent changes in DCI is so reminiscent of the heath care bill...the majority of the fans/nation didn't want it, but it got pushed through anyway.

obvious troll is obvious.

One thing I hope current members understand when they read some of the post here is how little those people matter. A couple hundred thousand people love what they do...a few loud people on the internet who can't accept drum corps for what it is should not have any impact on their experience. Many of those thousands are legacy fans, by the way...just go to any show and you see a mix of dinos and young fans. Yes, it's sad that these loud complainers can't enjoy what the members do, but it's a reflection on themselves, not the current MM and designers and staff members.

A short rabbit trail courtesy of skewerz, guardling, and bozzlyb (and I can do that because I am the OP of the thread : It appears that it is a matter of individual definition concerning how much one is allowing for change before the activity turns into something different. skewerz said (exclusively drums, bugles, and guard) well, if we use that as the specific binding definition, drum corps' have not been drum corps' since bells (percussion they may be but they are not "drums") were added in the 1930's; guardling stated that the definition has been allowed to change along with the various changes throughout the entire history of the activity (adding dancing guards, 2 then 3 valve G horns, grounded pit, then Bb horns, then electronics) all of these have been deemed part of drum corps; bozzlyb maintains that there is a point at which the activity changes so much it loses its identity (to him adding woodwinds for example). As we look at the history of drum corps, we see some people leaving with the addition of a valve to the G but others being drawn into the activity, we find people leaving after the addition of dancing guards but others being drawn to the activity, etc... it is sort of an ebb and flow of the activity. Maybe we are just in a flow (outgoing tide) stage instead of an ebb (incoming tide) stage. Would there be any argument to that assessment?

Ok you claim that ww/elec together is the context and that allows you to go see shows with just synths. So that means if woodwinds were added a few years back, and "not" synths, you would continue to go see some shows. Got it!