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A couple of operatives in action here: the "rose-colored headphone" effect, in which favorite/legendary groups from back in the day are attributed superhuman powers by their partisans, often in increasing parallel proportion to the elapsed time since said favorite/legend walked the fields. Spirit's 1980 horn line seems to be getting louder with each passing year. the coarser = louder principle, in which the more rough-hewn sound of the G bugle favored by some is interpreted as being louder by nature than the cleaner, more refined (for want of better terminology - no disrespect to the legends of the past intended) sonority of the modern era. Closely related to the coarser = better axiom, whereby everything from the pre-multikey era is assumed to be intrinsically superior (and by definition, louder at the top end of the dynamic scale) to current performance efforts. Don't get me wrong. I love and enjoy that old school, G bugle, high decibel stuff as much as the next old geezer, and I'm no great fan of electronic bottom-end enhancement or other tricks of that sort. But I'm certainly willing to admit there have been some pretty potent horn lines out there over the past 10 years or so, more than capable of standing toe to toe with face-rippers from any era. Peace, Fred O.

In 1973 many thousands of people said yes, that IS worth paying for, night after night. Tastes change, goals change, techniques change, instruments change. Different does not necessarily mean better or worse. If those 13 and under corps (Commodors 72, for instance) didn't exist back then, would we have today's BD? Probably not. If you don't want to pay to see them, that just means you don't want to support them. If you don't support the lower placing corps, how will they ever become higher placing corps? And sorry for the insult, but I felt one good insult deserved another. And I must say I'm continually amazed at the snobbery which seems to go hand in hand with drum corps participation.

Please, cut it out... regards, Fred O.

1) Blue Devils 2) Bluecoats 3) Cavaliers 4) Santa Clara 5) Crown 6) Cadets 7) Blue Stars 8) Phantom Regiment 9) Madison Scouts 10) Boston Crusaders 11) The Glassmen 12) Blue Knights 13) Troopers 14) Academy 15) Colts 16) Spirit 17) Jersey Surf 18) The Crossmen 19) Pacific Crest 20) Teal Sound 21) Mandarins 22) Pioneer 23) Cascades

I'm sorry that you did not receive the help that you were looking for. The experience that you report is very different from what I have observed/experienced. By the way, DCI does not have dozens of employees.

I think you got that backwards Charlie...

Typical Howdy. Trying to change the argument after he's figured out he'd lost. We're not talking about what the book was in 1980 or 2010, we're talking about what the musicians were/are capable of. But again, don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant. It's the Howdy/Catherine/notabando way.

Hunter Moss would tell you different. In fact, I've heard him say as much. But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good Howdy dino-rant. You'd be shocked at what today's drum corps brass players can do. But never mind me, I just spent the last two seasons teaching them all summer...

So I lurk a lot, but haven't in a long time. I had to ask this question to the general DCP membership: Is Howdy that guy that says really dumb crap all the time an everyone ignores him because he's a "special child"? You must not work with high school kids now-a-days, because let me tell you first hand. With the right teacher (probably NOT YOU) they do some absolutely INCREDIBLE things. I know a program in my area that played in one semester - Molly on the shore, Harrison's Dream, Candide, and Trittico! I'll move on after this to ignoring the special child, and lurking. lurk...

In no specific order: Top 3 Blue Devils - top guard, Cadets – top music, top GE Cavaliers – top vis Top 8 Bluecoats Carolina Crown Madison Scouts Phantom Regiment Santa Clara Vanguard – top perc 9-12 Blue Knights Blue Stars Boston Crusaders Spirit 13-17 Colts Crossmen The Academy Glassmen The Academy Troopers 18-25 Pacific Crest Teal Sound Blue Devils B – top GE Vanguard Cadets – top music, top perc Spartans – top guard, top vis Pioneer Jersey Surf Seattle Cascades 26-33 Oregon Crusaders Music City 7th Regiment Raiders Revolution The Yokohama Scouts Legends Jubal 34- Blue Saints Les Stentors Platinum Racine Scouts Colt Cadets Forte Genesis

:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Let's look at a show that many folks totally worship for power and volume. Spirit of Atlanta 1980. They had ~54 horns. Can you honestly tell me that 54 members can play louder on a dB level than an 80 member brass line now? Take a look at corps in the 90's which many consider to be the prime of DCI - 64 horns! If you can explain the physics of how 54/64 horns are playing LOUDER (dB) than 80(!!!) horns today go ahead. I would make a suggestion for some of you to turn up your hearing aides. >.<

Howdy is on a roll: He is averaging 7 "I"s and 9 "my"s per posting when tooting his own horn (full pun intended).

You're a very good trumpeter, and you have a wonderful tone. Just don't short change others' playing abilities.

I fear that I may have sounded a bit too cocky in that response.

Give it to me.

This is funny and really sad, all in one.

were you at the friends level back when you marched? how many of your fellow marchers were? how many current marchers will be when they're your age? you should be able to factually and accurately (for the most part) answer exactly 2 of the above questions. this whole reasoning approach screams straw man. now, you contend that more people are hating what they see and hear on the field now than they did when you marched. it's an opinion of yours. nothing more, nothing less. you might be right. i'm not as sure of it as you are. also, I know at least 400 kids from my area who would give anything to be able to have dci shows within 90 minutes of them where they could see the quality of corps that you are consistently able to see. my fellow directors and i would get a bus trip together in a heartbeat to get our kids there, and the demand would be huge. you seriously don't know how good you have it.

Yes, because all of those trumpet performance majors in DCI today wouldn't be able to hold up to those kids...

Guitar, Bass Guitar

they wont because they are also the "we want only the very best" crowd

you made me shed a tear....almost. I sat at Indy for two days surrounded by older guys/gals than me (I'm 50) with their jackets from corps still here and many no longer hear. We stood, applauded, laughed, cried (#### you Star Alumni) we vented about what we liked and didn't like and generally had a great time. I am sorry that DCI personally wrote you a memo telling you they don't care about you anymore. Evidently, the folks around me didn't get the same memo.

in 1976, two kids from my area near Chicago left and moved to Concord and lived there so they could march the Blue Devils. This was 1976...not 2010.

There is a difference in how the amplification is used. In the front ensemble, so far, the amplification has been used to boost the overall levels of the sections, and small instruments that would be hard to hear otherwise. With voice, you have people using solo voice, and spoken word voice overs and so on. That changes the dynamic of the show much more than just amplifying instruments that are hard to hear.

I did a brief review of this thread and didn’t see this address, forgive me if I missed it Slash staff on the pay roll, reduce staffing costs The of the biggest changes I’ve seen from back in the day to today is how massive the staff has grown and how many people are on the payroll Use to be only a few folks that got paid and they didn’t get paid much. A lot of instructions was done by alumni volunteers – of course, that was when corps were more regional and severed the area they were from And now they have tech for everything, so many techs, so much added expense (even if they are not being paid, just carrying them for the summer is $$$$) I’d love to see a break down in salaries paid in 1980 as compared to today in total amounts and then percentage of budget I really do feel that many problems within DCI are due to too many people hanging around too long and making this their full time gig. you got marcher paying to play and fan paying to see them play…seems like a sweet deal and yeah, they put in long hours and have to ride around in staff RVs (the horror), people claim they are underpaid which I don’t know if I buy….to that, I say go test the market then, go get you pay day outside of DCI. Having DCI on your resume seems to be a pretty good benefit anyway

Here is one example of things that DCI is doing now: http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=578a0c0d-165e-44e1-aa84-dbec35516860 Note that this is a story on DCI.org promoting a whole new circuit of start up corps. That kind of promtional thing didn't use to happen. Also note that one of the key presentors at the meeting was Bob Jacobs, a World Class Director and part of the management of DCI. Looks to me like DCI is trying to do things different in 2011.

And reverb....reverb....

OK, so.... for instance... the 73 Commodors... 12th place... horn line instructed by Jim Ott and Wayne Downey. But, yeah they really sucked, huh?

my bad...

I forgot what the thread was all about with the bickering.

Sorry....no. No, they do not say the small changes these past few years have 'broken' anything...they think that more and larger changes are what is needed to try and improve DCI. The few items added are part of the continuum that has been happening for many decades, predating DCI.

quote for me where I said that I wouldn't attend if a corps had synth? If woodwinds HAD been added a few years back, I wouldn't be attending shows. I never said electric was my last straw. Woodwinds is my last straw. It's just that electronics are awful close, and sometimes, they do indeed cross the line. Now go form your rock and roll U2 drum corps, or take up basket weaving or something. Stalking is weird...

I answered you the same way that you posted. My view of history goes back to 64, seeing shows in person...not reading old clippings from drum corps newspapers. You really have NO idea what local small drum corps shows were like in the 60's and 70's, it seems. Listening to old records and reading old clippings is hardly going to give you an idea what it was like. Bottom line is that you weren't there. You have ANY idea how accurate those numbers are? What was used as the basis for those numbers? No. Just what you saw in a paper. Were they true counts, or guesstimates based on...what? I have been attending shows since 1964...local ordinary shows just did not draw those kinds of crowds. They would not fit in the normal venues of the day. Special shows? Sure. There were a few held in larger venues back in the day...sorry...they just were not the 'ordinary' shows you are trying to foist on us.

I didn't say they were scholastic marching band directors.

dunno what Statesmen or Renegades shows you've been watching, but they sounded phenomnenal

1) Blue Devils - I don't see their streak ending any time soon if they keep pumping out the kind of shows they have since 2008 98-99, Visual Guard, GE 2-3) Carolina Crown/Cavaliers - This is hard for me, I see Crown coming in a little stronger, and the Cavaliers using the momentum form the great season they had last year. 96-98 Music :Crown Percussion: Bluecoats 4-5) Bluecoats/Vanguard - I'm getting devishly good vibes (see what I did there?) about this, with Paul Rennick jumping aboard, the percussion scores will definitely jump. 94-96 6-8) Cadets/Phantom/Blue Stars - I get the feeling Phantom is on the rise again, Blue Stars as well, and Cadets I'm not too sure about, we'll see. 92-94.5 9-10) Blue Knights/Madison Scouts - From what I've heard of the people I know in BK, they're in for a great season, and Madison won't fail to disappoint with a great program once again. I think both will break 90. 89-91 11-12) Glassmen/Colts - Glassmen will be stronger, but not quite strong enough to crack the top 10, and Colts I'm hearing very good things about. 86-88

actually, you'll be able to hear anything 3 times...

you just won't be able to hear ANYTHING anything anything

That idea leaves a bitter taste in my mouth...

As far as one year to the next, I was most surprised by the 2002 Seattle Cascades. Even when I saw them in San Antonio I don't think I was seeing them the same way the judges were. That said, by Finals I don't think anyone could question them. mike

Thank you for your heart felt opinions. We may differ in our point of views but ultimately we all want what's best for Drum Corps. For what it’s worth I don’t fear change in DCI one bit. My greatest fear and in my honest opinion the only real fear we face is that we end up with nothing. If DCI can go from 400+ corps to 40+ in 25 years, only the very naïve amongst you would say going from 40+ to zero will never happen. In an ideal world the G8 wouldn’t exist, 50yd line finals tickets would cost well under $100, venues would be sold out, we’d be looking forward to what 27th were planning in 2011 and there would still be hundreds of marching units teaching kids the joys of Drum Corps throughout not just North America but the whole world. However, since when have we lived in an ideal world... the 1950s before our youth got corrupted by those 4 boys from Liverpool with very bad haircuts? The phrase “Change or Die” is a brutal phrase but it applies to all walks of life from individuals like you and me to the largest of multinational corporations. The world we live in is ever changing, it’s constantly evolving in many different ways some good, some not so good. This includes what the world now regards as entertainment. It’s been said on DCP many times that even during the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s Drum Corps was still a niche activity. Not forgetting that back then there wasn’t anything like the many other types of entertainment Drum Corps has for competition today. I think DCI has recognised this, almost certainly they’re seeing it on their bottom line. Recent history tells us that DCI has attempted change… Bb, synths etc. but these changes clearly haven’t been enough to buck the trend. Hence the reason why we now find ourselves confronted by the looming shadows of the G8 and the Tour of Champions series… not forgetting the possible introduction of the so called “clap-o-meter caption”. I understand the criticism aimed at DCI and the G8 but I would argue that their motivation doesn’t stem from greed but from self-preservation. “To hell with the rest of you we’re going to look after ourselves” can often be associated with an agenda based on greed but it can also be applied to those who genuinely fear for their future. I think it’s proper and correct to criticise actions based on greed (in all walks of life not just Drum Corps) but to criticise those who fear for their very existence is wrong. We’re all entitled to our opinion on what the G8 is about. This is mine, it’s neither wrong nor right, it’s just an opinion. Finally… DCI and its member corps find themselves in a position where there is no going back, there is no standing still, the only direction available to them is forward. They must change or at least attempt change… or die. T.

I think the biggest factor is all the CYO AL VFW groups are not what they use to be. The local Church CYO had a lot of kids involved now not so much. Most of the Catholic corps were formed with kids from the CYO. Without these groups no local corps formed thus the need to tour to find shows and that decreased the number of corps. I remember we use to practice on Sundays all winter long and dues were collected at every practice .25 cents a week.

Yes, we are Charlie1223! I saw my first show in 1964, and I've loved EVERY era of drum corps I've experienced since then as a MM, designer, judge and audience member.

When you choose to change someones post, you should at least make it obvious what is being changed. Use bold or a different color. You are wrong in that change BTW...the number is far fewer than you try and make it appear. IMO of course.

The above is the reason DCI has to target itself as much as possible at the MB world, since that is where the audience and future MM are drawn from. Local circuits are not going to spring up in this day and age...they failed because they became expensive and irrelevant to those who had the same or better experience in their HS bands. 4,000+ competitive bands versus 400+ competitive corps...I'll take the 4,000+ any day, since that means many more are marching and competing today than ever before.

Ah, yes it was, because drum corps are marching bands. You are the "inaccurate" one here, not me. AL and VFW Nats, as has been said by others here, were highly attended because they were part of the annual conventions of those organizations. Talk about historically inaccurate. Back in the day an "ordinary five-corps show" was held at a HS field...won't even call them "stadiums" back then. The full capacity of those stands were in the 1,000 range. There were the exceptional shows such as the World Open or Dream or Nationals held at larger venues, but they were not the "ordinary" show venues. We marched somewhere between 25-30 shows a season, and 20+ of them were held at those HS fields...and that was in my Garfield days, not my Garden State Circuit days. Want to talk about those shows? The "ordinary" GSC show where we were lucky to have 100 people in attendance? Or the ones where we laid out a parking lot for the show and had a flatbed truck set up for the judges, just so our corps could satisfy its requirement to host a show. Or where champs were held at those HS fields I mentioned above...and the stands were not close to being full. Dover HS when I marched in the GSC. Elizabeth HS when I taught in the mid 70's.

For a tiny small portion of the people electric is vile. For most it is just part of the sound. For another small number...they love it.

The scholastic band scene, esp the HS bands, are what the small local corps use to be back in the day, only there are many, many more of them. That is the niche DCI should continue to mine in attracting audience and potential new members. There were something like 440 competitive corps nationwide at the start of the DCI era...there are 10X that many competitive bands, and 20K plus non-competitive HS bands and thousands of college bands. That is rightly the market DCI targets.

and even then the great savior BOA drew less fans than DCI does. tho if things keep going, that may change too.