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<So what if they're not acoustic? Their sound can be shaped and molded in the same way a trumpet/tuba/whatever's sound can. > Not even remotely true...there is no one monitoring a dial, the turning of which will allow the tubas to project and create proper balance from the back side line, which is where most drill designers want them to stand for 99% of the show (Bluecoats excepted...) - actually, 99% of drill designers want the tubas to be in the tunnel for the whole show...anywhere actually, as long as no one will ever see them - But back to the point: acoustic instruments require the human body to change...to find a way to create all the sounds and volumes necessary for musical expression. Amplified instruments - ESPECIALLY those that are designed from the start to be amplified (electric guitars...you, those solid body things that sound like a rubber band being twanged between your fingers when the electricity is off...) require nothing from the player in regards to volume and projection. That job is laid off onto Mr. Edison. Acoustic instruments do not blend well with amplified ones. Corps are finding it troublesome, balancing amplified pits with the acoustic percussion and brass. They get it right for stadium X, then travel to stadium Y and find that the audience in the catbird seat is hearing little else OTHER than pit (so aptly named when that kind of 'death by xylophone and suspended cymbal' is your experience of a $50 drum corps show...). But that trouble with pits is fixable - good corps seem to find a way to fix as they go. I believe it's because the instruments themselves are acoustic...the sound is human made...and simply made louder by the amps. Guitars, electric basses, synthesizers...these instruments don't exist without power. They do not balance well with the acoustic ones.

1. you are looking at this strictly from the mm side. I am looking at it from the fan side. instrumentation is one of, if not the most important aspect of drum corps. 2. electronics is a designers crutch...more means easier, and when a designer is working for both high schools and drum corps, being able to design with the same elements makes it easier to transpose the 2. I'm glad that drum corps marching members have such an enjoyable experience in the summer. I'm quite sure it's life altering, builds character, etc. As a paying fan that is looking for enjoyable music to listen to and watch, it just doesn't matter. If there are no fans, there is no drum corps.

Yes. I have a problem with the instruments being amplified....drowning out all the other instruments. That's not all it does. It colors and distorts the sound, and sometimes adds unintended noises. Let me illustrate it this way. By your logic, it would be better to have unlimited amplification of brass. Then we could hear the tubas over the synth. Horn players wouldn't have to overblow. More parts could be written (one per player) instead of having to double every brass voice. But I wouldn't want brass drowning out all the percussion, either. How about you?

I think it’s lazy, spurious, sloppy, arrogant and condescending to imply that those opposed to specific changes are merely older and having difficulty adjusting to changes Would you make such broad based age related assumptions in other areas? do all older people automatically possess wisdom or vote conservatively? Conversely, do all youngins vote liberal and reject tradition? Do all kids love Lady Gaga and do all adults hate her? people like what they like, taste is subjective

I hate constructing polls so here it is... I contend young people who came to DCI over the past 10-15 years from the marching band world, where guitars and synths and amps and vocals are now the norm in a show, don't see these additions to drum corps as a problem. I also contend, if you came to drum corps BECAUSE it was not High School Marching Band, you are more apt to hold these changes with a certain amount of angst. Most likely overgeneralizing, par usual. But, I am sure those who blur the lines will jump up and say, "Nada."

I have brought this up before and IMHO THIS is probably the modern drum corps killer question. Pretty much drum corps today has NO defined product or something that makes it unique from a brass marching band. Talk about a marketing nightmare to try and sell outside the small community of drum corps. You will notice some people will not talk about this elephant sitting in the room..but my sig covers this. BTW, as a side note this was brought up in 1999 as one of the more SERIOUS issues about allowing multi-key brass.

How to describe it is a question that DCI has been fiddling with for decades. I contend that they've allowed (and pushed) the activity to look so much like band that it's become harder and harder to describe. Why wasn't it so hard to describe 30 years ago? The same dynamics existed, except corps didn't look so much like band. And people seemed to know the difference. I contend it's gotten harder to describe because it's become so similar to band. What if DCI simply made it's marketing focus "Drum and Bugle Corps"? If they'd push to (re-)educate people on the activity it wouldn't be so hard to get the recognition we so dearly need. Instead, IMO, they're taking the easy way out by pandering to the idea that people won't be able to comprehend the uniqueness of the activity.

Do I enjoy the level of excellence on display in today's Drum Corps? Absolutely. But I would really love to hear one with the level of power and excitement of a '74 Muchachos.

There's something here I wish all of you "opinion-istas" would rationalize: Woodwinds were available and used in the 1940's when drum corps started, but they were not used in drum corps because drum corps had it's roots in the military. The Ohio State Univ. Marching Band (TBDBITL) has always exclusively used brass instruments even though WW were available at the beginning of the band. But it's never been referred to as a drum and bugle corps. Drum Corps is military-rooted. Marching Band is scholastic-rooted. Drum corps has never been referred to as marching band (except by MikeD) because it was not scholastic-based. TBDBITL was never referred to as a drum corps because it's scholastic-based. Ergo, when drum corps "aligns" itself with scholastic music, whether or not it allows WW, it will be summertime, touring marching band. (Just squirting lighter fluid on the barby )

Really? Lots of people think judging GE by "applause meter" wouldn't work. If I remember correctly, you are one of them. Do you think we need to try it?

No no no. Please read what I wrote. I specifically excluded all those things in this point: The activity -- what the members do for 10 minutes -- is substantially IDENTICAL to what marching bands do. You're focusing on a TINY TINY element and suddenly saying THIS is what defines drumcorps. You couldn't be more wrong. . People march and play and spin on a football field. (Competitive) marching band and drum corps are the same thing. The BIG differences lie outside the on-field product (and therefore outside considerations like instrumentation). Drum corps is in the summer. Drum corps tour. Etc.. Attempting to blow up instrumentation into the DEFINITIVE difference is just plain ridiculous. I have preferences that may not lie so very far from yours. But I'm not going pronounce that G v Bb or A&E v acoustic DEFINE the activity. What CMM's actually DO every season defines the activity. Not me. Not you. REALLY? There are four or five threads now on the front page where DCP'rs consistently call electronics "easy", "cheating" , "no longer drum corps" blah blah blah on and on. Now put yourself in the position of a CMM reading that. Those kids must be idiots who just stand their and press the easy button. What they do isn't music and has little to do with actual musicianship. No -- no one is denigrating anyone. Right. Yes it is accusatory. And it's founded clearly in facts right here in black and white. Quite frankly I'd like all these blowhards on DCP to go watch a full day of practice and then tell those kids to their face that what they do isn't drum corps, that they cheat, aren't musicians, and just take the easy way out. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

As a member you can tell the difference in experience. But an audience member cannot tell that difference from the stands. All they can see is improved quality and that instrumentation thing. Let's not forget the people paying the bills....

but they were all percussion and brass, with no wires and mics.

But your post makes an interesting point: Even if those corps didn't necessarily compete, they did help to provide a stable audience base for local shows. That's an economic factor that hasn't been fully matched by attendance from members of high school marching bands. I challenge you to listen to Oakland Crusaders' 1978 show and claim that we sounded "bad" . . . and we placed 17th that year. You probably will say that, and of course you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a highly subjective one, and can't necessarily be validated by listening to the recordings of the time. People were doing their best, of course, but it's a poor substitute for the real thing. This has always been the case. When I marched, relatively few university music majors marched drum corps because either they felt it was "beneath" them, or they didn't want to sacrifice their summers and trade good musical habits for bad ones, which they would then have to unlearn upon returning to school in the fall. (This is still a common complaint I hear about drum corps.) University music students were never the core membership of most drum corps; it was the average Joe or Jane off the street who might have a good musical ear, but not necessarily the formal training to play in a horn or drum line.

Yes, many (most?) drum corps members have a marching band background, but that doesn't mean that they are getting the same value exchange out of both experiences. We all know that it takes a lot of sacrifice to be in a drum corps, and one of those sacrifices for some students includes dealing with the pressure from some band directors that want that student at their band camp in June, July, or August, not on tour with a drum corps. Of course there are exceptions to this, particularly nowadays, but in the past, for some, it was a real factor for participation in corps. My own kids deal with this kind of band director even today. This is but one example of the competition for participants that I'm referring to. There are other examples. Yes, you're right. I absolutely think that drum corps is defined by its instrumentation. All of the rest of the other 99% of the end product can be (and likely is) found in virtually every kind of group related recreational or goal driven activity. Things like fellowship, teamwork, learning of life-skills, going through ups and downs, "shared hardship, brotherhood, and too many other great qualities to list here," are often experienced in the chess club, the debate team, the church choir, working at McDonald's, the bowling team, the marching band, the jazz band, the orchestra, the swing choir, on, and on, and on, and on. In the case of drum corps, it's the instrumentation that defines what kind of experience we're talking about. Furthermore, as we all know, sometimes the drum corps experience (the other 99% that you speak of) can unfortunately be one that is incredibly unhealthy and dysfunctional for a variety of reasons, depending on the organization and the personnel involved. The same goes for any other group activity. Sorry, drum corps is more than just "the experiences." You are ignoring the one thing that makes it (or made it) unique, the instrumentation. The experience makes it great (or not so great), the instrumentation makes it a drum corps. Obviously, not all "legacy fans" have severed ties with the activity, and I'm not sure how you or anyone would be in a position to determine what the unique part of someone else's drum corps experience revolved around. I've not read where members performing on electronic instruments have been pigeon-holed or denigrated. I think your interpretation is overstated. That's an accusatory statement that has no foundation of fact. If someone chooses to not be involved in the activity (for whatever reason), I find it hard to believe that that choice has anything to do with "turning one's back on anyone." Just my opinion.

I can appreciate the way you argue things as well. You will take into account other people's points of view when in a discussion. Some people that are fans of anything goes don't. It's a shame that you never got to see 84 Garfield live...86 BD championship encore was the loudest show I've heard live, and Crown can't touch it. (I didn't get to hear 80 Spirit live) You get to hear some of the people say how horrible sounding G bugles were, and they were never in tune. That's just hogwash. Sure, some of the smaller corps had intonation problems, but once they got to the 2 valve G bugles, I can't recall any really harsh out of tune horn lines that were in the quarterfinals and up. Bb was added because of ease of resale, and to make it easier for brass instructors to teach, period. They weren't using the kid off the street anymore, at least not in the top 12. The G lines were lush...powerful...and in tune. In 1982, I went to try out for the Canton Bluecoats. I was a drummer. I showed up the week after drum tryouts, so I picked up a bari. I couldn't read music. Well, I still can't read music. I had the first 2 songs memorized by the second week. They taught those that didn't know how...can you imagine the Bluecoats doing that now? (Mom made me quit after 3 weeks...couldn't afford it) I realize that you come from a different generation...a generation that is used to guitars and synthesizers in marching band. Yet the "newbie" has to realize that fans with 10 to 50 years of history AREN'T used to it. We know what draws fans in to drum corps...musical and marching excellence. We know that people aren't attracted to drum corps because of synthesizers or guitars. The new fan either doesn't like it (small percentage) or doesn't care.(huge percentage) The legacy fan percentages are a bit different. Some don't like it (a significant percentage, but I won't go as far as to say majority), and some that don't care (probably more than the "dislike" legacy fan). Some say they like electronics also, but the number that I've personally observed that like electronics is practically nil..with the only ones I know of that like it residing on this board, and proclaiming to the heavens that electronics will save the world. (yeah, I get a bit sarcastic and off tangent once in a while. No one from DCI sent out a poll asking the fans if they wanted electronics or not. Just the opposite happened, actually, with the 3600 name fan petition saying they didn't want electronics in drum corps. A majority of corps directors wanted it, so they voted it in, plain and simple. Designers were designing for both high school bands and drum corps, so adding electronics to the drum corps repertoire made it easier for them. Music is about passion. Drum corps fans are definitely a passionate group. We all want what we all want. The problem with that is when it comes to discussion (or argument, most of the time). Passion isn't a good basis to hold a logical debate on. The electronic debate is one such discussion. MikeD says electronics should be in drum corps because they are in marching band and because drum corps is marching band, it's a logical progression. I, and many others on here, don't think that drum corps is marching band. While a subset of marching band, it is it's own unique entity. Adding marching band instruments degrades and eventually nulls drum corps uniqueness, leaving not drum corps, but band corps. There's also the 2 words that are being bandied about by the differing sides. Anachronism...from the "want it all" crowd, to tradition, from the legacy crowd. Anachronism is used in it's full negative connotation form. Change or die...Can't live in the past...etc. This isn't negative when you consider that the largest forms of entertainment in the world are all anachronistic. Orchestra, ballet, and most of the major sports are all anachronistic. Tradition is exactly what it means. The legacy fan is insulted by people that screw with their traditions. Tradition is brass, percussion, guard. Tradition is that unique sound. Making an excellent show with just brass, percussion and guard to work with is hard. Drum corps is supposed to be hard. Adding additional elements makes it easier. Adding elements doesn't make it better. It just changes it to something else, that already exists. It's a never ending fight. Drum corps will go on one way or another, until the money is gone. People argue over things they are passionate about.

sounds AMAZING!!! I cant wait!

and there it is..the smarmy, condescending "unable to grow" comment. and he says he never calls people names or anything. Does someone need a tissue? Nosebleed at high elevations can be dangerous...

but, if they did...would you keep to the company line, or would you complain about it?

if staff and corps directors decided to repeal electronics, would you be happy about it?

keep burying your head in the sand about electronics...keep touting the party line. You know fans have left because of them. You have heard the problems electronics have caused at shows. I can deal with partisanship, but when honesty goes out the window, it gets a bit silly.

Would MLB fans be so magnanimous to " try out " liking MLB's " change " of adding ( say ) a 5th base in baseball next year ? What if MLB allowed all players to ( say ) wear bermuda shorts next year ? Or allowed teams the option to "change" to the use of lacrosse sticks for outfielders ? If " baseball " added lacrosse sticks to " baseball " would their fans still call the game " baseball " ? You see, there is " change ", like the use ( or non use ) of " the designated hitter " change, and then there is the " change " of adding lacrosse sticks to the game of baseball. Not all " change " is created equal. You know what I'm sayin' ?

there's a huge difference between the "real men" stuff, and things like G to Bb. I can't think of any kind of real argument to carry tymp...and I started watching shows in the 70's when they were still carrying them. Setting them down improved their sound, and allowed them to play more complex rhythms on them. The "dinos" don't want drum corps to revert back to the 60's or 70's. Most dinos don't mind grounded pit. Even Bb is accepted by most dinos. Most dinos just want emotional, melodic music combined with today's great drill...drill which isn't really much different than it was in the 90's. The major dino roadblock is electronics...

facets of musicality like dynamics, tone quality, and intonation are more consistently implemented from top to bottom in dci corps now than they ever have been, IMO. of course, i don't always agree with the choices designers make, and wish there was more face-peeling stuff.

I'm confused. Your question to skewerz was: which electronics have driven away audience members? One of his answers was amplified narration -- and you seem to be replying with a claim that drum corps have added narration because they're making more from the fees of members who narrate than they're losing from audience members who are turned off by narration. Likewise for other electronica. Am I reading you correctly? And since most of the amplified narrators I've heard haven't been very good speakers (I would list only Bluecoats '07 and Crown '07 as well done), I'm especially confused by the claim that there is fierce competition for those duties! You're being sarcastic, right, in blaming the audience members for a corps' poor sound? Because if not, either those seats shouldn't be sold, or those venues not performed in. Or is this further justification for having the volume levels of the pit (because the players are apparently incompetent in this regard, compared to the brass and battery) not only amplified but controlled by someone in the stands?

IMO this is exactly the case (and why you'll never see drum corps return to the "glory" days of ubiquitous drum corps. People who complain about the "marching-band-inzation" of drum corps have it exactly backwards; in reality marching band has been "drum-corps-ized" and have effectively replaced those hundreds of local corps with 1000's of local HS "corps". Instead of denying this reality, drum corps today should focus on how to "fit" DCI corps into this landscape. It's all a matter of perspective. Once you have the courage to think of all those HS programs as local drum corps serving their local communities, the world is suddenly a very different place. The "activity" is flourishing as it never has and is reaching levels of excellence that early corps have never dreamed. Summer drum corps retains it's uniqueness -- HS "corps" in the Fall can never provide the member experience nor can it truly approach that level of excellence. Drum corps continues to provide it's unique approach to the activity. But denying the larger landscape and insisting that drum corps is isolated and separate from the rest of the marching arts experience IMO serves no good purpose. I think there maybe opportunities for more local corps in a very regionally-focused but the barriers to such a system are very high. In order to be attractive to local youth, such corps would need to provide an experience superior to high school programs. Financially that's going to be a real challenge. It's certainly not the "build it and they will come" scenario that many here seem to believe. The bigger challenge is solving the vicious cycle which current DCI Corps face: a model with ever-rising costs and apparently decreasing revenues. I don' t have the answer to that question but I'm sure that it involves the E-word (despite all the outrage that term seems to invoke). Ticket sales = revenue -- it's an irrefutable fact and corps need to face it squarely and very soon regardless of how it "offends" the "artistic" sensibilities of many.

Howdy is on a roll: He is averaging 7 "I"s and 9 "my"s per posting when tooting his own horn (full pun intended).

just because the books may not be written that way does not mean the kids couldnt do it if asked. and these days they could do it marching harder drills than you had in 1980. but if you tell a lie enough you begin to believe it's the truth, so keep on believing

So, anyway... Go Cadets!

I fear that I may have sounded a bit too cocky in that response.

well, you've been on long enough to garner the lowest reputation points I've ever seen on DCP!

I accidentally greened this post... someone correct my mistake...

Give it to me.

Typical Howdy. Trying to change the argument after he's figured out he'd lost. We're not talking about what the book was in 1980 or 2010, we're talking about what the musicians were/are capable of. But again, don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant. It's the Howdy/Catherine/notabando way.

Hunter Moss would tell you different. In fact, I've heard him say as much. But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good Howdy dino-rant. You'd be shocked at what today's drum corps brass players can do. But never mind me, I just spent the last two seasons teaching them all summer...

Sure they could, if they had G soprano bugles. Make the 80 Spirit kids play that stuff on a trumpet and they'd fold like a cheap suit. Anyone with a lick of sense knows this, including all the old-school lead soprano players.

So I lurk a lot, but haven't in a long time. I had to ask this question to the general DCP membership: Is Howdy that guy that says really dumb crap all the time an everyone ignores him because he's a "special child"? You must not work with high school kids now-a-days, because let me tell you first hand. With the right teacher (probably NOT YOU) they do some absolutely INCREDIBLE things. I know a program in my area that played in one semester - Molly on the shore, Harrison's Dream, Candide, and Trittico! I'll move on after this to ignoring the special child, and lurking. lurk...

Ignoring that today's WC corps would have been disqualified in 1972 (on several counts)....I would contend that by the judging standards and expectations of 1972, a 2010 WC performance would be so far out of the hunt in GE alone that they would have no chance of winning. (And of course, the converse is true if a 1972 corps time-traveled into the 2010 championship.) How ironic, though....those 1972 corps you scoff at had the bigger paid audience.

Going to a drum corps show and not being entertained or getting our money's worth.

Meh, Star of Indiana's first ten seconds last year was worth the price of admission alone. I'd pay $100 for that chemical release again no problem. I see no difference between that and purchasing psychoactive drugs for much more.

> drum corps has had some alum go out in the other worlds of music and have great success. Some??? How about A Lot!!! I have friends that gig in NY, LA, and all over the world, and you would be surprised at how many fellow professional musicians they perform with who marched in a drum corps. To me, this is where DCI is missing the marketing boat!!!

Oh, but we just don't understand, you see. Electronics is the future of drum corps so we have to put up with this: Bweep bwoop sssssss POP ssss BWEEP *insert electronically produced anachronistic stuff during shows here that we're supposed to blindly accept and like* Sigh... I tell ya, if the rumors about Crossmen going unplugged (re: synths) is true, I will donate a significant portion of my drum corps stash of funds to them. I'm not joking.

Agree...Back in the day when I was an instructor, if I did anything during the performance that could affect the peformance, we were penalized...I understand the idea behind this, but how far can we take this?

I work in a theater, so I don't think it's easy to operate a sound board. I also don't think it's easy to properly play a musical instrument. I do think that all direct control over sound in drum corps ought to be (1) performed by a member, not a staffer; and (2) controlled from the field / pit, not from the stands. If the corps can't do that, they proabably shouldn't be using amplfication in the first place.

It's just disgusting that's even a topic.

Freakin cool show concept right there...

Abscense of light.

Yes! And that's something that's completely infeasible with the way the organization is structured today, plain and simple.

Right. Because I've never heard anyone from my generation profess to liking The Beatles or Bob Dylan. Music and sound are just that. Timeless. You can try all you want to associate particular style and instruments with a certain time period, but that doesn't mean there's something that makes that style more inherently suited to yesteryear. If you think the musical excellence of a top twelve DCI corps straight out of 1985, entirely unchanged, wouldn't elicit the same if not greater reaction from an audience today, you're deluding yourself.