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Man, Crown would be well-served to ask you to tone it down. I like Crown, but you're making it difficult...

So, by this logic, all drum corps should be run by staffs made up of peers of the marching members, right? Cub Scouts should be run by boys not over the age of 11? Fox holes should only have men of similar ages in them, right? Colleges should prevent older adults from taking classes with younger students? The list is endless. Teenagers mimic the influences around them. If the adults are acting like adults the teenagers learn to act like adults. To restrict that influence risks allowing the untrained inmates the opportunity to run the asylum. You've admitted little substantiation for the opinions you've been posting here recently. Readers would do well to keep this fact in mind when considering your words above as appropriate adult behavior.

In the movie Mr. Holland's Opus he placed a football helmet on a student and then pounded out time on the helmet with a mallet. Try that

Agreed on all counts and let me add... DCA is not, repeat NOT full of weird uncle pedo types. It's clear some people commenting know little to nothing about DCA. I think we're seeing in this thread the evidence of exactly the problem I was talking about. An inability to evolve in a meaninful, rather than frivolous, way. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic will accomplish nothing.

yeah, i generally think of kamen and bach together.

Gary is pretty busy. For the first time in years, he represented the corps at a DCA meeting yesterday... great seeing him... one of the real GOOD guys.

You've made this reference before - speaking to phantom DCPers who aren't obvious to those of us who do post. So are you using DCP as your own message board to these hidden readers? Is it only they to whom you are proposing your solutions? This is a pretty convincing straw-man argument, it seems to me. Only the wizards behind their anonymous curtains can comprehend the wisdom of your words? I can adamantly disagree with your contentions and still admire the voracity of your posts (and I do). I have no personal opinion of you because we don't know each other outside of these posts. You could be a wonderful person, full of love and warmth for your fellow humans or you could be an ax-murderer trolling for victims for all I know. It's what you post here that I mostly disagree with, not you, the person. I'm mostly thankful that in your case, too, apparently, the movers and shakers of DCI view DCP as a land of fruits and nuts. /sarcasm

I'd add Marching guard members

The very first thing you should do, before you do anything else related to movement, is have them walk in time. WALK. Not march. Bang a gock block, or play music with a nice, easy tempo (100-110) and just...walk. Straight line/follow-the-leader works really well.

Back at'cha Nanci. Andeveryone else as well.

Happy Easter everyone! I'll post a new feature tomorrow!

I have to say, that on paper/pixels, this rep and concept leaves me a tad flat. That said, so did a show about horses, endings, fairy-tales, and second chances. If there is a corps in DCI that can pull this idea off (and do so in a fashion that has the crowd on its feet), it's Carolina Crown. Best of luck to them this summer, and I'm looking forward to loving this show (even if it's against my will).

Those straight legs don't look nice when you're out of step.

Just curious were thse corps judged under the same judges? We know one judge can give one group high numbers and a different judge give that same performance a totally different number.... lets not degrade the scouts guard when they havent even completed auditions yet....just lay on back and count the days by til first shows

I agree... except I would say that one can get a very good experience in more than just some DCA corps. I've seen several all-age corps in recent years that rehearse as well as, if not better than, many of the top DCI units. One big reason is..... the all-agers have less time to rehearse, so the savvy organizations know how to use time very well. I do agree, a number of the all-age corps have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to rehearsal etiquette( use of time, etc.) compared to the DCI corps. And some of the all-age corps, quite frankly, still have a bit of the old "seat of the pants" organization thing going on. But in terms of rehearsal discipline, preparation by staff and members, use of time, etc... overall the gap is closing between the all-age corps and the DCI corps, from what I've seen first-hand.

I think there a number of reasons, not just one. A sample: Fewer junior age corps to age out of prior to joining a DCA corps. The old progression from junior-to-senior just isn't the norm anymore. Consider that back in the day there were a couple of hundred junior corps in the NY Metro area, more or less, that fed into a relative handful of senior corps, so even then the percentage moving from junior to senior was pretty low. Cost of DCI tour is certainly a factor. You can get a VERY good experience in some of the DCA corps at a fraction the cost of DCI, if summer marching/music is your thing. Improving reputation of DCA at least in my area. For a looong time the 'view' of DCA was hardly one supportive of integrating minors. That has undergone a huge, and welcome, change over time. BTW...lots of junior age kids did march DCA back in the day. After Garfield fired George Tuthill after the 71 season, for example, a good chunk of our drumline moved to the Cabs where he was teaching...none of them close to being overage.

I AM Loving this thread and siding with Daniel! Here is why... 5% of the people in the world have accumulated 95% of the things that there are to accumulate! The other 95% of the people share the last remaining 5% of stuff... When reading this thread it is fairly simple to see who the 5%ers are and those who believe in what I will laughingly call "COMMON WISDOM?" lol Become a 5%er and you too will be capable of understanding what Daniel is discussing! Stay in the 95% as cattle and see things only from your same sad perspective!

i stand by my previous post, it is gonna happen. GO Scouts.

There's a lot of love for some current top dogs here...but I must vote for early/mid 80s SCV. Year after year after year, finely crafted horn lines with wonderful tone from player to player, outstanding intonation, and featuring one of my favorite (and least displayed...) aspects of a great line: the 'pyramid' of sound. The pyramid is where the soprano voice is often the least strong (that is not to say they're weak...or soft). The contras ARE strong, and they along with euphoniums create a thick bottom foundation. Baritones and mid voices (SCV had mellos AND French horn bugles at that time) give a resonant and aesthetically pleasing middle sound. While the soprano voice is able, with seemingly effortless clarity, to ride out over the top of it all. 1981, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, AND 90...all absolutely SHONE. Ten years of truly unsurpassed excellence...and I don't care who won the high brass award in ANY of those years (that's the problem with awards...it's as if to say 'those that didn't win didn't excel...).

Scouts colorguard were able to beat VANGUARD AND BLUE STAR DURING 2010.. This is a fact... from a guard one year prior was 15th and lower.. That's an amazing jump.. And 2010 was only "year one" with the dream team guard staff.. Look what the staff did for 2011 SCV at WGI and Carmel H.S.... Gold and Gold. Staff is on a roll..

What hastens the end of Drum Corps? Spreading lies about and general bashing the other circuits(s). Especially since DCADCI (only one person caught this) and DCA have had connections over the decades thru staff, members, performing at each others shows, etc, etc. And I can remember the examples I gave back in the late 70s. Also forgot to aid in my previous post, rules about (against)underage/underage sex while with the corps of on the way to/from corps functions. Big worry in my day...

For pure quality of sound, Star '92 is hard to beat. Anyone that dredges up the Bb vs G quality argument needs to listen to Star '92. Star mellophone line was amazing from start to finish, last year with the Star Alumni they were unbelievable. IMO, they were the best section in the corps (always killed me, as a lead sop, that this was true but - its good motivation). For execution, Star '91/'93 as mentioned above. Blue Devils '86, '93 were fantastic as well. BD these past few years had an awesome sound, but, for the most part they didn't use it in their show - they play very little. Crown '09, '10 had an amazing sound, and they were spread across the entire field for much of the show. Quality and execution possibly the best ever, both years. I'm a huge fan of Cavaliers visual shows for the past 10 years, but their brass sound isn't even close to BD/Crown. Sorry. Listen to the corps in the lot, when you can hear just the hornline without the percussion. BD and Crown have a superior sound to everyone else (and, interestingly, a different sound from each other). Bluecoats gets honorable mention here - they're almost as good.

except DCI was major league before the current schedule trends were in place. Oh and you had more local corps too.

yet the membership in DCA gets younger every year. you should actually check it out, so then you wouldn't be speaking incorrectly

Like, not even of this earth. If i could hire them to play whenever I entered a room I would.

no. narration did.

So i'm thinking Scouts guard went from 15th ish to 8th to 2011 top 5 (or top 4). We will revisit this...

I agree with you that many teenagers have, and will, march all-age corps'. For example it is cool that a parent/child can do something like that together on weekends within DCA. What I was getting at is that particular philosophy will not be able to produce the Major League quality DCI has sought for the past decade unless all-age becomes a full-time every-day massive-tour situation. DCI has morphed into calling itself a Major League, which by the very nature requires the youth to engage in long every-day rehearsals as well as a massive tour schedule that most adults cannot participate. And since DCI has been able to produce a high quality product with the upper end of the WC, that particular organization cannot go back to just a local sandlot type situation. DCI will either have to continue the quest toward Major League or fold (i.e. you cannot turn a table back into a tree).

Lot of kids have been doing it for decades. Mostly because it was a better fit for their lives than spending more $$$$ and not being home for weeks at a time. But if it's not the DCI WC model. guess it's not right huh?

PLAY SOMETHING

but...but...kids want to sit on busses for millions of miles that's what we get told

Whew! Glad to hear this! I was just about to begin running up my credit cards...

And yet, knowing DCP is a place of rabid fans who take issues (and their debate) seriously, you come on with contentions of solutions backed only by opinion, then allude to further data that only you are privy to, and expect the serious posters here to buy your claims sight-unseen. It's the ultimate straw-man argument, and posters here have seen enough straw men to spot one far away. You say you're not "connected" to any corps or DCI or the activity in general, that you live on the other side of the globe, but that you have inside information trusted only to you. These facts make your contentions of "...must be done..." seem very hollow and baseless. On what grounds should we believe otherwise? Your word alone? Data without proof is only contention. Surely you see this...

And agian, the calming voice of reason.

Sounds like 7th place?

I didn't show any data... just a couple of sloppy graphs that I slammed together from that data. Impossible for anyone to poke any holes in it here, as they don't have the full context. Feel free to pull together data from ticket sales and individual corps merchandise sales and then draw your own conclusions. Donations from fans contribute less to the operating budgets of individual organizations than many people seem to think. In fact, if I were to operate a corps... I would probably not bother with openly soliciting donations. I believe there are better options for support. What does per capita have to do with anything? Luxembourg has one of the highest per capital incomes in the world, but it only has about 500 thousand people. Doesn't mean that Luxembourg makes a considerable contribution to global GDP. People get too emotional about this whole point. They take it personally. No reason to.

To borrow from the political rhetoric of the day....drum corps has a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Adapting to the challenges of today's economy (particularly if fuel prices stay high) will require some sort of change to the operating model that addresses the cost of operating a drum corps. If the majority of DCI has the guts to make those changes, and the intelligence to identify what those changes should be, they will survive (perhaps even grow) over the long term.

Drum corps is a niche activity. This is both it's saving grace, and it's shackles. It will always be here, but it will never mainstream and appeal to the masses in any sense much greater than it does now.

Recessions come and go. The Philadelphia SO will survive the recession and so will DCI.

Can anyone say, "Bill Cook was a visionary"? That's how I got my job as Staff Writer and I continue to prove them correct about me every time I write something. To what address do I send the thank-you check?

I played for a couple of seasons with an orchestra in America. My girlfriend plays in an orchestra in Europe. Comparing our experiences... they are radically different. Two major differences... In America, people love to go see music performed that they already know. It is, for most people, an occasional thing and an activity they tend to become interested in when they are older. In Europe, people love to go to see music they have never heard. They want to hear new music because it is, for most people, something they do 15-20 times per year and an activity they tend to become interested in as soon as they were old enough to sit still for more than 10 minutes. What are the key factors that have developed such differences? 1. Ticket prices are lower in Europe because of stronger government and corporate support 2. Ticket prices include FAMILY options, causing much larger regular audiences and the development of lifetime audience loyalty What can DCI learn from this? A major effort should be placed on securing corporate sponsorship to help cover costs to be able to lower ticket prices and to create family ticket plans. This could dramatically boost attendance for new attendees that have a casual interest in the activity and with family options... lifelong fans are more easily developed. This WILL NOT HAPPEN without corporate sponsorship. Drum corps CANNOT GROW without corporate sponsorship. If DCI's efforts to date have not been effective in this, it does not mean it cannot be done... it means the people who DCI has engaged were not successful in this. Again, find out who did this for the Honda Battle of the Bands. Hire them. Done. DCI needs to stop hiring people that know anything at all about drum corps. This is not who they are trying to market to. Hire people that know nothing at all about it. They will have a better idea of how to promote this to others that no nothing about it. One on the topic... DCI's salaries are way too low. Raise the salaries of people in revenue responsible positions... provide COMPETITIVE financial incentives for them based on performance, and you will see numbers dramatically improve. DCI needs to stop thinking like a charity. They are not handing out soup and blankets. They are not providing an educational service (individual corps do that). They are a BUSINESS. DCI is an event promoter. Period. DCI regulatory activities need to be completely separated from business activities or the activity will simply tread water.

All very excellent points. Especially that we may not recognize the activity in 30 years. One thing that WILL keep drum corps alive (and ANY art form alive) is the willingness to change. If an art form hopes to survive, it must stay relevant. If we want to see drum corps in 30 years, we should be willing to accept that it may look like a very different activity then (indeed, this seems to be a discussion we're already having). Shows may be very different. And that's okay! I do raise one concern. The arts and music, in the long run, may not be going anywhere, but we should also face that drum corps is a niche activity, so though the arts in general may be sustained through difficult times, smaller niche art forms are at a greater risk of disappearing. However. Drum Corps is much less government dependent than many other art forms. BECAUSE it's a niche activity, the fanbase is strong and always aware of the dangers of cuts. In a sense Drum Corps may be able to survive because it funds itself. Remember, these kids are paying to march, which means they want to be there. They're not professional musicans. Drum Corps may be expensive, but its nowhere near as expensive as, say having to pay a yearly salary for every member of a world class orchestra (indeed, the Philadelphia Symphony just filed for bankruptcy). I think that, so long as drum corps fans don't get TOO comfortable with their situation and are always aware of the dangers of falling into obscurity, we'll be fine. It is this exact kind of conversation that sustains the activity. So thanks for posting!

As the OP said, this is not the thread for that discussion. Drum corps is not dead, simply different. As for the topic, I think you're equating the failure of orchestras with the state of music overall. Music is a huge part of any culture. While funding for the arts comes and goes in cycles much like the economy, that doesn't stop music from being a part of culture. Orchestral music has become less and less popular in America throughout the last century for several reasons. One of the most important reasons, from an anthropological point of view, is that much of orchestral music is not fundamentally American. Yes, there has been orchestral music composed here, and by American composers, but the vast majority of the music these ensembles perform is older than our culture is. As a result, we don't identify with it. With the inception of blues, and jazz and the eventual progression into the many styles of music you hear on the radio today, the American musical identity changed drastically over the course of about 150 years. Part of that identity, although a small niche within said identity, is drum corps. It is, in its modern form, American made. It breeds its own fans through its involvement in music education (one of the smartest moves its ever made), and thus creates a cycle of young fans becoming members who become older fans who gripe about the good old days. Today's high school band members will be tomorrow's grumpy alumni. As for band programs in general, I can tell you that I work in one of the states which has cut funding to band programs the most, and as a result, most of the band programs around have simply circumvented state funding entirely, running everything through the boosters. The school I teach at gets a completely laughable budget from the school. We wouldn't even be able to do do enough instrument repair to keep the concert band running if not for our boosters, and the kids/parents sacrificing their volunteer time and money via membership fees to keep things running. The point is, music always finds a way to thrive. It is one of the ultimate forms of human expression, and it is one of the few things that almost every civilization ever to emerge on the planet has in common. Drum corps isn't going anywhere. We probably won't recognize it in 30 years, but it will still be around.

And I forgot to say how well Andy did as an MC...his replacement was as good though. Donny

Spot on with the reviews Donny & Ray ... my View From The Pulpit saw some great competitors as well as a great and appreciative crowd ... but, like everyone has mantioned, if you don't get to one of these I&E shows, you don't get to experience the closeness of the crowd to the players and the bantoring and chiding that goes on throughout the day ... a nice touch was added when Harry Hazelwood offered to review Tax Returns for people in the crowd in between competitiors ... and ... if you haven't heard already, John Bailey finally got "pardoned" by the Mayor of Bpt for the Ice Cream Truck Incident in 1963! ... LOL ... and the banquet (our largest to date) was filled with emotion and passion by the inductees, their families and the presenters ... it was gratifying to see crowd intensely listening as introductions were made and acceptance speeches were given from the heart ... I was especially taken aback by Tom Day and his enchanting, lovely daughter Julie ... was a delight just to be in their presence ... BFDTV will be putting some video clips of the show and banquet ... I encourage you to view them ... you will not be disappointed ... Andy "you cordial BHOF MC (boy was it a long day)" Lisko

For DCP folks who haven't gotten out to one of these BHoF I&E shows, get the schedule early and put it on your bucket list. Simply an amazing day - the bari ensemble from St. Kevins was worth the trip - those boys can play! For the younger, hipper crowd (say from the 1980s or so) Mass Brass will tune you up, and listening to players like Frank Dorritie and Johnny Grass you could close your eyes and you wouldn't be able to tell it's not the 60s and 70s editions. Simply amazing. And for some of you youngsters who missed earlier renditions of John "Screech" Arietano - fasten your seat belts - he hasn't lost a single overtone. If age has caused you to lose some of your high frequency hearing - bring your dog. He can still hear John's favored tessitura. Glad I could make it and happy to see so many friends reaching back 50 years or so.

Concert and/or Full Retreats.

retreats and G bugles...

Since I can't take anything away, I'd add a small EMP device ( ) to every stadium in the U.S. that renders electronics useless. :)

Um.......... This is not opinion it is fact... They can ge heard from " back " field although drill has evolved a lot now a days and I don't mean " accent " impact crashes. You can hear sizzles, slides, tings, and mp level crashes when the writer knows how to write for cymbals and uses the proper dybamics vs the horns or winds... That is a fact. No disrespect to the Cavaliers but when you guys had a cymbal line the writing was only used for impact and not music coloring or rythmic texturing. That is the truth I have seen the videos and yes cymbal sound does cut through to the mikes.. I am not at all trying to be rude but you really can hear them. That's the " other " excuse haha! Oh well.....