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Hello again. TOM: I've never met you, that I'm aware of. That being said, in the past 24 hours I have read almost every one of your posts over the past year. Most have painted an unflattering portrait of you as what I would call a "Polly Poopypants", constantly critical of the organization, typically unsupportive of the organization, to the point of borderline obsessive and at the very least the unflattering side of nasty. Now, suddenly in appearance, you're concerned for our well being and survival, apparently taking down what I would call a 'metaphorical' "THE END IS NEAR FOR PIONEER" sign, and make it sound like you and Roman are best buds, referring to his legacy etc. etc. All that was missing was "Danny Boy" playing in the background like a soundtrack and a box of tissues. A complete 180 degrees from your previous positions, from where I sit. What I do know, is that the extent of his plan for what he plans to do with the corps were he unable to continue in whatever capacity is something I, you and no one else is aware of except those who are supposed to be aware of it, and out of respect for him it should stay that way. Are people curious? Of course. Do I have my speculations of what will happen? Definitely. Would I ask him outright? Perhaps, were it the right time, place and appropriate. I do not thing this forum is the place for that, and certainly not from someone who has made it a point to be so negative about virtually everything Pioneer, from top to bottom, hat to shoe, shamrock to shillelagh. If you're that friendly with Roman, then ask him yourself. Why post it here where even in my quick indoctrination on this forum (and after years of hearing about it from almost everyone I know who sits on here) I can see that rumor and misinformation runs rampant. Understand: Having seen a years' worth of what I would call extremely unflattering and demoralizing posts from you, I'm sure you can see my perspective, and why I responded as I did. I don't apologize for it. Unless of course you had some form of Irish epiphany on the road to McDamascus. I do agree that it's important to preserve any and all opportunity for kids to enjoy the drum corps experience. This we can agree on. Knowing Roman even in the short span of 4 years, I would anticipate there is a plan in place. There's some evidence of that. My parents are Romans' age. They have difficulty bringing up the topic of death, their wishes, etc. in our discussions, and I find myself as an only child carefully and tactfully approaching the questions so that I and they are prepared, and their wishes are respectfully fulfilled. It's sensitive, and I cannot imagine it being comfortable as a family, much less having a legion of people online contemplate your impending demise. You cannot put out double digit posts over a years' time criticizing almost every part of the organization, from its' director, staff, programming, and everything else except choice of shoestring color... and then expect to have THAT question be perceived as a heartfelt, sincere query that shows true concern for the corps. If you want it to be perceived as heartfelt, then evaluate what you send to this forum and ask yourself: is this really appropriate? will it really do any good? is this the best approach to handling the situation? Then ... ask yourself again, knowing that some students and parents read this. Then... ask yourself yet again... in light of that, are you really helping the organization? Were I to apply that criteria to a great deal of posts on here about Pioneer (or a few other corps by MANY people, I might add), I'd say it does not help in the majority of instances. If you truly are compassionate and are concerned for the well being of the corps, well, that's an outstanding and refreshing change! Good for you! I try not to let outside opinions distract me from the true prize here, and that is working on the 2012 program, creating a healthy, vibrant, and educated hornline for whoever shows up, and whoever is 110% dedicated as I am to making this year grow based on the foundation of the year previous. And, in spite of the small size, there was some great qualities to come out of last season, and some incredible learning from all sections. I'm looking forward to my next jaunt to Wisconsin to tackle round two of the preparations. If you feel I'm missing something that would help me understand you better and your unique take on the organization, contact me privately. Thanks again everyone. Back to writing the horn warm up book. ~LRD

But that 2008 show did put them back into Finals. So by that measure it was a success. And based on the reaction they got Finals week, I think they were quite well received, too. Regardless, they got new staff, made a concerted effort to get fans on their side, and all has worked out nicely for them. Good times. Nothing to do with Phantom, really. Mike

I have been personally involved with several HS bands whose budget would make a pauper blush, and can think of quite a few others off the top of my head. The idea that HS music education can be provided only for the affluent is incorrect. Mike

I completely disagree with the first sentence. In my area, kids of all stripes play in their high school marching bands. Most of the band directors I know around here TRY and get kids of lower socio-economic status to join band, because it gives them something to belong to and be successful at. And no, they're not crappy programs. Are their kids from well-off families? Sure there are. But the vast majority of kids around here are not "well-to-do." Not saying that isn't the case in some areas, but a blanket statement such as that is dangerous and misrepresentative of the facts.

Are you REALLY arguing that Phantom Regiment doesn't connect with fans? Because that's more absurd than the 2008 Blue Devils.

Pacific Crest? Out in Diamond Bar, that really isn't far with some help and a ride. Better yet, Gold at 4859 W El Segundo Blvd, Hawthorne, CA 90250 A 5 minute bus ride from south central L.A. Or Impulse over in Buena Park, Or VK over in Pasadena, Or City Sound in Long Beach. Have you ever been to Los Angeles? That's 5 out of 46 corps listed on the DCI Website, within a bus ride or two of your example kid. So freaking Pessimistic.

Somewhere other than DCP I hope!

Sounds like someone with a grudge.

Those shorts are each hand made by a woman who's made the shorts for past 20 plus years. The style has stayed the same but the colors are different each year. The only way to get them is to be a part of the Cadets Percussion Section.

Back in 87, the Freelancers were a young corps... and I do mean young. Average age of somewhere around 16-17 and only a half dozen vets in the entire corps. We left out on first tour with only half a hornline and probably less than a dozen guard and filled out the corps on the road. Heck, we didn't even start learning drill until Memorial Day! After a few weeks on tour, it was obvious that a lot of the members didn't really know their parts and / or were seriously lacking in performance confidence. So one day, while it was hammering down rain, the staff came up with a brilliant idea. The hornline would be divided equally into 3 separate hornlines as would the battery (minus the bass drums) and the guard. What we would be left with was 3 Freelancers "mini-corps" that would equally share the bass drums and the pit. We were told to go away and come up with a name for our groups consisting of one of the corps official colors, Red, Black and White / Chrome... ours was the 67th Legion of Chrome as we were mired in a spate of scoring 67's. We were then to put together a show consisting of our show music and / or anything we had performed during the winter. We were to design drill and a uniform that could use parts of our uniform but not the whole thing. We were given all day to do this with the "show" being that evening. The judging panel consisted of all of our caption heads, the tour director Tom Hope and I think a bus driver and cook or two. That evening we hosted the first ever Freelancers Mini Corps Championship and what a blast it was! Soprano solos being played on Contras with soprano mouthpieces! Towels being used as kilts! Loud and in your face!! Good fun was had by all! Also, we became a lot closer as a corps that night. People that didn't know their parts learned them really quick for fear of being exposed. Wall flowers had to come out of their shells as there was nowhere to hide in a minicorps in a gym. The 67th won the show by the way and we had our annual ice cream social afterwards. Without a doubt one of my favorite non performance moments ever!!

For the first time in years I loved every one of the top ten shows. Each for a different reason. Can't remember a better year for a top ten. I'm obviously a PR homer, but I picked Cadets because they had a little bit of everything I liked this year.....drama, style, visual, style, intensity, style. Everyone of the top ten had at least one thing they did better than other corps (but perhaps not by much), but Cadets had the best 'package deal' -

Crown, because I thought the drum book was excellent, it had a neat twist of sophistication and plain cheese, and the whole production just *worked.* I didn't spend a whole of time dissecting it while I watched; I just went "hah!" and "whoa!" and "cool!" Mike

I'm assuming you are saying this is true in New England. I'm really not that familiar with the marching band scene in that area of the country or how many corps there may have been in the 60s and 70s. Talking NATIONALLY though there are over 20,000 high school marching bands. Over ONE MILLION kids participate in those marching bands. At no time could drum corps ever claim to have anything close to those numbers. Yes, not all marching bands are of high quality, but the same is true of drum corps...even in 2011. However, quality programs CAN be found in rural and urban areas...and in some cases, such as Chicago's Marion Catholic, the quality is exemplary! Far more important than financial backing is having an outstanding director that will inspire the kids to greatness.

At its peak, there were, from what I have read here and other web sources, around 440 field corps in 1971. Most of these were the small local style corps...the number of national level corps was about the same as today. Consider an average size of those 400+ as what? 60 or so? A lot of the small local-style corps were in the 20-something hornline size, 12-ish drummers and 12-ish guard, so I am giving them even more. The total is around 26,000-28,000 kids competing nationwide, if those numbers are close to accurate. Look at the competitive band scene today...estimates I have read here are around 4,000 bands that compete at some level, again mostly local, not large BOA-caliber. What is the average size of those? Let us assume the same 60, to be conservative. Now you are talking 240,000 kids marching and competing at some level. There are many bands that compete that are not from well-to-do areas. and, there were lots of corps back in the day that were from the suburbs; they were not all inner city as you make it appear. So yes, modern competitive MB has indeed replaced the local-style corps, IMO.

First, no, Madison is not 'copying' Phantom. Phantom has done their thing, in their way, all along, and it works for them. Even in their disaster year (cough09cough), they were a crowd favorite. Madison, however, has made a concerted effort to reengage their fan base, and it's worked very, very well. They deserve nothing but praise for that. Let's don't turn it into a one-versus-the-other thing, 'cause it's not. If both corps are making folks happy, then everyone wins. Mike (Who actually really liked Madison's 2008 show, and at least the opener in 2009.)

he's right...and he's wrong. When it comes to Urban areas, he's dead on. However, in rural areas it can be different. Some schools in rural areas have great marching band programs. Some do not, and with arts being the hot topic of budget cuts, more and more don't even have a band. Drum corps and marching band have some similarities yes. They also have differences. No matter how much people want to say they are the same, they aren't totally the same, never have been and never will be. And I know more than a few great marching bands that do zero in their community, so saying they take the place of smaller community corps of the past is a joke, because they were farmore involved in the community. Playing at the friday night football game doesnt make them active. it means they have to perform at them under orders. will we ever see the return of smaller community corps? maybe, maybe not. But the pigeon holing done by both sides of this argument is like watching congress....the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and neither side wants to yield and look at things more realistically. It's easier to speak in broad generalities and ignore a lot of facts that bring the real issues right into the middle.

Well, I suspect if the quad player's school is really that poor, the chance of them having a set of quads is pretty remote. As for the numbers; even at the heyday of small community-based drum corps, I'm guessing (and it truly is just a guess) that there weren't as many drum corps as there are now competitive high school marching bands...even if the bands aren't really "competitive." I've judged enough marching band shows to have seen lots and lots of marching bands I wouldn't suspect even exist. There are perhaps thousands of competing bands that only go to local contests. A 20 mile drive is a big road trip for them. While not every high school band may not have been a cog in the replacement of the role that used to be filled by community small corps, enough across the total spectrum indeed do so that the activity as a whole does accomplish that purpose, IMHO.

this is good... glad the administration at Academy feels comfortable enough to add these shows. At least theoretically, this means Academy has been successful and is ready to take another step. As fans, we win.

Yes; high school marching bands are now providing (replacing) the community service drum corps provided back in the day; and I am an old-fart who accepts this fact. This is also why it would be completely futile for corps of today to even try and capture the ways of the old. (ok, I am ready for those red negatives from all you other old-farts out there)!!

The notion that these so-called local corps were even in contention with high school bands for quality of education, competitive prowess, etc. is adorable. Those little corps weren't good, they weren't sound educational experiences, and they were replaced soundly by high school music programs. The end.

Nice. I sure do know the difference between margarine and butter. Heavy use of margarine cuts your lifespan by 10-15 years, and butter by 20. LOL. And what the heck is oleo? Sounds like some sort of chant. Maybe it's something the folks in Cleveland use to try to ward off snowstorms. They line the banks of Lake Erie and shout "Oleo, oleo!!!!!" Of course, it still snows like an SOB anyway. So... I'm looking at a basic menu of clam chowdah, lobster rolls, clams, maybe some New England popovers... plus chocolate-covered cranberries from that candy store in town, and cupcakes from Cupcake Charlie's. That should get me through my first day there.

This marked the 5th straight year my daughter and I marched Brass. As always for me the best day of the season is the last day. The emotions of never being with this group of your friends again, the last performance together, last run through as a group. Everything about the last day is what makes it so wonderful. But to win a championship with my daughter is something that I will always remember. We have a special bond of music and drum corps, others in my family do not understand. My son and I have hockey and auto racing, the wife and I go to movies and casinos. But to have a passion and to share it makes everything we do worth the long days, rain, practice, heat, did I say rain. I was not just with my daughter. I had my other kids, my guard daughters and sons, my trumpet section family and 120 other close friends, to me they are all family and that is what made this year so very special for me. Buy the way, our first outdoor rehearsal of the season was in sleet and rain, so it was fitting that we ended the last day of our season in the rain.

hmm lets see... madison started going back to their roots in 2010.. in 05 phantom played rhapsody in blue which they played historically 07 firebird... tribute to the past 08..spartacus... nothing else needs to be said, a very historic show for regiment before 2008 phantom always goes back to stuff they've played before... madison just started doing it, nothing wrong with that. They aren't copying phantom, they are just doing what works for them and what the audience likes... but phantom was doing this long before madisons recent nostalgic turn

Please re-read your first post. Sounded pretty negative to me. Inactive? Moving down to Open Class? So, perhaps you want all rosy and sunshine in your thread? Life isn't built that way. People don't learn from much from praise, they learn far more from criticism.

You make some great points, Jeff. I simply did not want the "all marching band kids are rich" statement to go un-rebutted, because it's just not true. As with anything, there are always exceptions to the rule.

Where I teach, about 50% of our kids are on free or reduced lunch plans. Where I teach, our marching band will be performing at the ISSMA State Championships next weekend at Lucas Oil. Those local drum corps were much worse than small high school marching bands today. Sorry, wrong on nearly all counts.

On a personal note, the one positive thing about these events is to read the well wishes from you. The Brigadiers family so appreciates it and is heartened by them. Scott Mescon Brigadiers 1993-

So what? Far better to hinder show ideas through denial of permission than overlooking the stealing of intellectual property by the staff.

LOL, my OP was directed towards how many nights do you sleep on the bus (upright) as compared to sleeping in a real building (lying down). But as DCP threads usually go this went a different direction... and this direction is a hoot..... Carry on....

Me too...however..even though it placed lower, I liked 1981 better. I was never a big fan of "On The 20th Century"...but any 27 show is a treat!

And part of me thinks that instead of a HS social/educational experience that many other HS marching bands can provide, DCI fills a need with college students. HS bandos (I really use that term endearingly and in no way mean it derogatory) now-a-days can very easily be enthusiastic about marching due to their HS experience and turn to drum corps to either fill the void left after graduation and/or take the experience to the next level. I'm not saying that's better or worse than potentially back in the day, but it is a benefit of the modern landscape of drum corps.

There is one "way of the old" that drum corps does not have to capture, and I believe it will continue to stay that way: No matter how much marching bands may provide the community service component that at one time was provided to a greater extent by drum corps then that now, the drum corps experience offers youth a social experience that cannot be duplicated in the schools. For those who want it and are willing to put in the hard work, the physical, musical and teamwork benefits of drum corps remain at the pinnacle of the marching activities and are well beyond the wonderful benefits one gets from their own marching bands. (This is not to diminish what youth get out of their marching bands...but it's just not the same thing.) I trust that this activity we all love will continue to be what people look to in order to experience the best of the best.

This is good news. Anyone but John Rod.

Good luck and I'm going to be hoping for something as cool as the Africa show!!!

I'm not suggesting a single judging criteria. Instead, and organization that can assemble the data on each school program, coordinate the judges, distribute the sheets, be a central location to announce show criteria, manage all the inputs and collate all the outputs into a centralized judging system that hires local judges and trains them in the various tour judging standards? Then hires out those judges to any school or district that wants to hold a band competition? Careful Stu, you're starting to formulate a business plan for DCI that's not connected to drum corps. Sounds crazy, might work!

Well yes.....who's gonna really argue with musicians whose FIRST job is "rifleman?"

I can assure you that Daniel is not garfield. I can also assure you that the offline discussions that have been generated by this thread are quite interesting and far-reaching. Could be an interesting winter!

thank you for proclaiming your superior intellect when in fact, I have asked questions many times, and your usual response to belittle that which was not written as clearly as you claim. but hey if it got people talking, I'm all for DCI the stuffed animals, DCI the shoe horn, etc.

I guess no matter what anyone else says, DanielRay has a better solution right? We are all idiots and know nothing. I have one better....I am an idiot for continuing this post! If DCI needed re-organization just call them or leave your card. Then again, maybe they don't want your help. Take the hint!

With Rosander writing drill, I think this is a very good change for Blue Stars. They have the talent to march and play, and it's time to take it up another level of design.

Setting up a visual is one thing. Understanding how the hornline needs to control the horn and move with a different style from how a drumline moves are very different things. If the technique is being shopped out to someone else on the staff then sure, why not.

Good Evening, everyone. I'll admit... this is my first time reading, much less posting to DCP. In the 17 years I've been involved in drum corps, I usually stay away from this and other forums. And, judging by some of the banter on here, I can see why. For starters, some of what I'm hearing is borderline rude and an invasion of one's business. Whatever opinion you have of people involved in the activity, writing about the future of a corps after the current director "is no longer living"... well, that's a bit over the line of appropriateness, methinks. Call me the new guy, but if this is how we treat people..... I've been involved with Pioneer 08, 09, 11 and am now involved in teaching and planning for 2012. I'm a band director by trade, and have masters in music education and curriculum development/instructional design. To me, it's about the kids, and maximizing the experience for them, by them, and through the program. Making it the best it can be... just as many other staff members do. In my own way, and my own specialty, I hope to bring this to the table for 2012 as I could not by coming in later in the 2011 season. That being said, GUARDLING posted this: OHHHHH NOOOOOO!!! I didnt say that at all. Although I support anythinng they want to do..that's their thing are they a WC corps HELL NO!!!!! One of the corps I taught this summer we fgot to see them at times and the kids work hard no doubtbut its far from world class. Unfortunately ( and I didnt want to really get into this ) BUT I did over hear someof their staff speeches after a performance and although staff does need to encourage their members it was crazy, pipe dreams..blaming others before a the corps was even given scores....enough said...as I said they can do what they want. , But do I support that its their choice , sure,,,agree no, feel sorry...well maybe for some of the kids but thats it. Also if the kids are happy then , thats enough GUARDLING. Please contact me privately. I'm not sure what you saw or heard, but I want to know about it. In all of MY discussions with my brassline, and with the corps in general, this "blaming others" talk.... was not acceptable, and would not be tolerated. That being said, I would like to also know your definition of a "world class corps". I'd be curious to see of some of the other shows and corps I saw really match that qualification. In an activity that is somewhat dwindling by the year... I'd hate to see us continuously point fingers and be so judgmental. If I had a nickel for the number of staff members who have the air of pretentiousness that resembles the red carpet every time we showed up at show sites... as if this were Oscar night... well, let's just say no corps would have an issue even in this economy. And, this was not towards Pioneer, but in general. It seemed like many other staff from corps walked around like they were God's gift to drum corps. Seriously? Who taught them to be so unfriendly? Why would a kid want to join and be taught by people who seem to be in it to raise their own profile, rather than truly teach? A true sign that we must be doing something right: the number of members I and other staff have taught who move to other organizations in the top 12. There's an issue as well, but I don't think we're alone in corps #13-23. It's natural for others to have the desire to move up. We do it at jobs, we do it for schooling... but it's a bittersweet pill until things will get better every year. So, for those instructors from other corps who like to speak poorly about Pioneer or any other corps a student is coming in from to march with you, watch your tongue. We got them to you. And, as our webmaster explained... we are working on that and several other things to improve the group for 2012 and beyond. You've seen the show announcement. Thanks to the person who mentioned U2... I'm aware of the licensing issues. That's why we have backup ideas in place, and it's not final. Every corps has their own struggles and challenges, and I for one welcome the challenge to make progress and change happen in this organization. There's a satisfaction of being able to make an organization like Pioneer stay true to its' heritage while bringing it into the future and updating it. No thing is worthwhile that does not require work. We teach our members this, and we address it ourselves, in our own adult way. Sometimes, ensuring that an organization stays true to its' values requires slow yet meticulous growth for the long term, rather than changing something every year just because some design guru, tech guru, or other expert in the field says its the next, hot best thing... "everyone's doing it"... "you won't be cool if you don't". Thanks for listening. Lansing R. Dimon Brass Caption Head 2011, 2012 Pioneer Drum and Bugle Corps

Fantasia 2003 ...and it was a lot more than 8 drops; it was well into the teens. The cartwheel sequence alone was 5 drops (only 1 person caught.) That said, the video is edited VERY well to mask a lot of the mistakes. You had to be there live to really see them explode. But, it was a great show...and they did finish in 3rd with the bronze.

Excellent contribution to the thread. You should be proud.

Visual and percussion design now handled by people who have designed for championship shows, that is a good thing.

I'll answer on behalf of my 3 1/2 year old who, BTW, sat through not one, but 3 nights of drum corps with very few meltdowns (if you have littleones, you know what I mean): Cadets - "where is that girl in the flowy dress" (the angel at the end) Blue Devils - "I want to see those men in those boxes" Cavaliers - "When are the men on the stilts coming on?" Crown - "Too Loud" Phantom - "Why is that man laying on the ground?" (Romeo) SCV - "Christmas colors!" Bluecoats "Boooooooo". (We tried to correct her but.... she's 3 :) ) Boston - "TENTS!!!" Blue Knights - "Dots!!!" (After a close up of their uniform showed up on the big screen) Madison - "Mommy, why are you crying?" (My wife marched Suncoast who Robert Smith wrote for in the 80's. That man can write music!) Blue Stars - "Daddy, are those guys going back on the stage?" (as horn players march off the platforms). Also, "Go Howard!" (said wife also marched with Howard Weinstein in Suncoast in the 80's) Spirit - She danced during the balad so she must of liked it.

You know I love the Scouts but I hate scatter drill and there was just a whole lot of that this year. Hard to judge I would think.

If it's an internet vote type of thing it will probably be Crown. All the kiddies love Crown. Madison was clearly the crowd favorite in the stands by far!

I was just going to post this. I'm so glad they sorted that out! (And hope it doesn't get taken away)

Hell Yes Spirit. No corps even close and just as good if not better than Blue Stars. The show design was truly brilliant and not just to eek into finals. One my favorite 3 shows of the summer. Truly a geniusly crafted program.