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Those kids need to make sure they get some In-N-Out when they get over here.

It's always great for those on the West coast to get to see the East coast corps live. Good call by both groups!

You should see the ageout ceremony of someone who has been in the percussion for like 5 years. Sometimes they wear all 5 of their shorts so you can see all the different colors of the past. Kinda cool....

Starting an independent drum corps or winter program in the communities that you describe is not the solution. Supporting and strengthening opportunities within the school system is a much better solution for a variety of reasons. The country doesn't need more than about 40 drum corps... but the more marching bands and winter programs, the better.

I'm not too thrilled about this hire either. Don't get me wrong, Myron is an excellent drill writer. His style, to me, just doesn't seem like it will mesh will with the kinds of shows the Stars put together. However, the directors of the Blue Stars organization do know more than me about their corps, so we'll see. Whatever happens, I wish for the best!

For the first time in years I loved every one of the top ten shows. Each for a different reason. Can't remember a better year for a top ten. I'm obviously a PR homer, but I picked Cadets because they had a little bit of everything I liked this year.....drama, style, visual, style, intensity, style. Everyone of the top ten had at least one thing they did better than other corps (but perhaps not by much), but Cadets had the best 'package deal' -

Are you REALLY arguing that Phantom Regiment doesn't connect with fans? Because that's more absurd than the 2008 Blue Devils.

If you could place your favorite drum corps doing your all time favorite show in any venue- what would it be? Mine would be 1995 Madison Scouts at my local High School's Friday Football half time- just to see the look on the kid's in the bleachers faces when they hear the power and see excellence would make my day! Any other ideas?

High school marching bands have not really taken the place of hundreds of smaller drum corps. It might make some people feel better to say that, but it's not quite true. Here's why... Only the more affluent school systems have functional music programs at all, let alone good marching bands. In an urban area like central Los Angeles, those kids have never even SEEN a good marching band or really know what one is. They don't have the choice of moving their families to a school district with better resources, instruction, etc. There is no opportunity for these hundreds of thousands of kids (millions on a nationwide scale) to learn the life lessons that drum corps or today's better HS bands provide. We're not talking BOA level here, just a decent program. It simply doesn't exist in many places. These are the areas where smaller drum corps used to thrive. Smaller, and sometimes even bigger and quite successful drum corps used to provide opportunity for kids regardless of economic background or geographic districting. If your school didn't have a good band program, you could join the local drum corps. If your most local corps wasn't so great, you could go to the one across town for the cost of a city bus ride. This, very unfortunately, is a thing of the past. How many great corps came out of urban areas? I'll let others list them if they choose, but consider Bayonne Bridgemen, Boston Crusaders, etc. Here's one example of a student caught in the trap. He's a GREAT quad player and one of the most genuine and hardest working people you will ever meet. Given the opportunity, he could make BD's line, but he will never have that chance. His family lives in south central LA and he went to a high school that has one of the worst music programs in the state. The area is plagued with gang violence, poverty and general misery. Even if his family moved within the district (which is huge) better programs simply don't exist with the exception of a few charter schools which have waiting lists years long, and even then he would have to find a way to get to school every day 40+ miles from his home. His only chance to do something better is to go to a local drum corps. But, there isn't one. It's just not going to happen for him. The logistics and expenses make it impossible. High school marching band, like drum corps, is an activity for the well to do. So, if you live in a good neighborhood with a good school district and go to a school with a functional music program, you can have the "drum corps experience." If not, forget it. The corps of days gone by reached out to kids at risk and gave them opportunities they would not have had otherwise. That simply does not exist today, and that's why HS bands have not replaced smaller corps.

a degree in music education does not make one a good teacher. trust me, I've seen plenty

I think it's great anyone is going. Now if we could only get finals back out there...

Hello my dear friends in whoville.... I appreciate the preliminary publicity her majesty queen of whoville gave me. My Novel is now available both electronically and in print for info go to www.thedanichronicles.com Tom

Finally.

One of the reasons why people get so down on Pioneer and use them as a source of humor on DCP, every year, is the fact that they always come out with this hype about thier corps, program, and how great they are going to be; then, as winter progresses into spring, they don't get the membership that they desire, the music has become this and that, and the annual excuses arrive: "that's what we were planning to do" or "this is what we decided to do." The reality is, how can Pioneer expect everyone else to take them seriously when they don't take themselves seriously. I'm glad they are still around and, yes, I've done more than my fair share of cracking jokes about them; but something really, really needs to change with that organization.

Are you suggesting that it could not be possible for computers to create something unique? I actually believe that computers could come up with many more unique possibilities than humans simply due to the capacity to truly generate a random expression. Humans cannot be random as we only have the ability to generate an expression from a base of knowns (based on previous experience), while computers can use a parameter of knowns to generate a previous unknown. In essence, computers can potentially be more abstract than humans, but in a very concrete way.

I am not sure capital makes a difference when you are wanting to expand, I mean.... sometimes the biggest city is not the capital. For example, Scouts are in the capital and that seems to work out, but Cadets and Blue Devils are not really even near the capital and they do ok. Crown is in kind of a smaller city. Mandarins are in the capital... so, shouldn't they be the best in the state using your logic?

Maybe you could hook up with Kidsgrove Scouts and come over for DCA next year. :-)

And that's why it's fun and you want to be there! Daisy Duke bikini's on top!

Your homework assignment DR, is to create a 3-5 minute sample that we all can watch/play. A sample that is different from the software currently being used by others. You did (and I believe you that you must have the talent) say it shouldn't be that difficult.

Hanging out with almost the entire corps on "The Wall" (the Revere Beach seawall) every night after practice. Beautiful women, listening to great tunes, drinking ice-cold "beverages," and eating Kelly's Roast Beef Sandwiches, french fries, onion rings, and whole fried clams (not clam strips, which are uncivilized.) We hung out all-year-round, not just when the "corpies" came to town for auditions, camps and tours. Hanging out at the Wall became socialization tie-that-binds us. It may have just for a short time or all night, but it was the common experience that brought us closer, sometimes closer than we were with buddies back in the neighborhood, classmates, and even family. When other corps "housed-in" with us during local competitions, we brought them along.

Are you that obtuse!!! My point is that DCI and the various corps have a stated "mission" a stated "goal" a stated "obligation" to help youth through charitable means because that is how they are structured within all of those arts, education, humanities, and culture designations; yet they are now attempting to change into functioning as a Major League like the PGA which is creating all of the huge expenditures. DCI can certainly function as-is within its means if it reverts back to that charitable youth mission which they placed on their 1023 applications, or they must move away from the youth-charity mission goals, restructure as a major league entity (like the PGA) and progress toward a professional major league status. However, they cannot continue to dwell in the charitable youth world where capital is always scarce while creating major league expenditures. GET IT NOW?

Vanguard why? Music selection was perfect, many have said it was the most beautiful ballad of the season Drill was challenging, but meaningful. lots of symbols, some obvious others not. got back to the V, did viper up until the end of the season. The VANGUARD YELL was back, finally The show itself was emotional, but not in your face about it. the story was good to watch, and if you knew where to look there was a lot of cool things going on. The percussion was great, as is the usual for a rennick group. Not to say that other shows weren't amazing, they all were. But because im a SCV fan first, i will give them the edge here.

You will find all sorts of situations even in a single state, as you wisely note. Here in my neck of the country many competitive bands have gone to an all-volunteer after-school extra-curricular activity model, like any other sport or club or music group a la Jazz Ensemble. The one I teach is that way. Every kid does want to be there, and yes, they have the drive to excel as best they can in the available time, just like corps. There is no grade for MB; from day one, the band classes are just the concert band activity. That is quite common around here, but again, not totally. There are still a few that mandate MB, but for the most part, those bands do not compete much. Desire to excel? We just redid the last 7 pages of drill for our show...the kids learned all of the new drill in an hour and a half Monday night. It is not clean, of course, but the kids knew it would make the end of the show better and dug deep down to get it done so we could spend tomorrow night and Saturday morning cleaning. I'm sure others have similar stories about their MB.

very true..........and sometimes a crack pot is just a crack pot

Obviously I think this idea as a legit judging system of computers can't happen due to emotional responses to music and the multiple brain functions humans undergo to analyze a musical piece. And this isn't even taking into consideration the visual aspects of drum corps. However, an app that allows an audience member to undergo a series of questions about the design, flow, musicality, integration, level of performance, and other criteria on the sheets would probably make some people a little more educated on the processes the judges undergo when scoring. It may even surprise people when they believe their "favorite" corps should win said competition, but after carefully looking at the specific criteria the judges are looking for and the ratio of scores (I.E. the brass line might be phenomenal but the GE of the show overall lacks)might find that the winning corps of the night was not their favorite. Some examples could be to break down each box criteria and literally have the fans rate 0-100 on each question, like a grading rubric on each particular item. i.e. from 1-100, how would you rate the level of orchestration of the musical program. Possibly do 20 questions for each group and round a figure proportionally within each category to an overall score. Not an exact science by any means but it may be kind of fun to see how the final program turns up scores. I just wish I had some computer know-how to develop this. And when someone does, I just ask you buy me dinner in Indy, lol.

At least the waffles will be safe!

MADISON 2010 and 2011 Not even in the top3 of best 10th shows of the 2000's. Phantom is having much more success than Madison of late. stupid comparison.

Parades= hurry up and wait

Meeting Doyle Gammil. /thread

I was pretty sure they were probably a custom job. They are way too cool to be mass produced. Haha. And I love having matching rehearsal stuff! I think it really creates good section morale.

Back in 87, the Freelancers were a young corps... and I do mean young. Average age of somewhere around 16-17 and only a half dozen vets in the entire corps. We left out on first tour with only half a hornline and probably less than a dozen guard and filled out the corps on the road. Heck, we didn't even start learning drill until Memorial Day! After a few weeks on tour, it was obvious that a lot of the members didn't really know their parts and / or were seriously lacking in performance confidence. So one day, while it was hammering down rain, the staff came up with a brilliant idea. The hornline would be divided equally into 3 separate hornlines as would the battery (minus the bass drums) and the guard. What we would be left with was 3 Freelancers "mini-corps" that would equally share the bass drums and the pit. We were told to go away and come up with a name for our groups consisting of one of the corps official colors, Red, Black and White / Chrome... ours was the 67th Legion of Chrome as we were mired in a spate of scoring 67's. We were then to put together a show consisting of our show music and / or anything we had performed during the winter. We were to design drill and a uniform that could use parts of our uniform but not the whole thing. We were given all day to do this with the "show" being that evening. The judging panel consisted of all of our caption heads, the tour director Tom Hope and I think a bus driver and cook or two. That evening we hosted the first ever Freelancers Mini Corps Championship and what a blast it was! Soprano solos being played on Contras with soprano mouthpieces! Towels being used as kilts! Loud and in your face!! Good fun was had by all! Also, we became a lot closer as a corps that night. People that didn't know their parts learned them really quick for fear of being exposed. Wall flowers had to come out of their shells as there was nowhere to hide in a minicorps in a gym. The 67th won the show by the way and we had our annual ice cream social afterwards. Without a doubt one of my favorite non performance moments ever!!

Just gotta say that Greg Cinzio is still playing and can be found in the horn line of the Skyliners Alumni. Besides being a player, he is a great guy and and member! Every corps should have a couple of "Greg Cinzios" on their roster! Ray

First, no, Madison is not 'copying' Phantom. Phantom has done their thing, in their way, all along, and it works for them. Even in their disaster year (cough09cough), they were a crowd favorite. Madison, however, has made a concerted effort to reengage their fan base, and it's worked very, very well. They deserve nothing but praise for that. Let's don't turn it into a one-versus-the-other thing, 'cause it's not. If both corps are making folks happy, then everyone wins. Mike (Who actually really liked Madison's 2008 show, and at least the opener in 2009.)

This. Even the WORST of high school bands is taught by someone with a degree in Music Education. That was NOT the case with every local corps. Moreover, those local corps were not nearly as involved or even GOOD as your run of the mill marching band. The rose colored glasses about local corps need to go. Real teachers are doing real teaching jobs because more towns have schools with music than EVER had drum corps.

You are missing this important fact: There are far more higher quality local marching bands around the country today than there were high quality local drum corps, even in the hay-day of local corps. Moreover... You first premise does not hold water unless "all" local communities also had drum corps back in the day; and I had to drive over seven hours one-way back in the day to reach a "local" corps. Your second premise contains limiting factors like talent, time, and money; and those today who overcome those limiting factors can either move into a school district with competitive bands or afford to go audition for a corps which is far away. And no, I was not lucky enough to be able to live in a district with a great marching band.

Not to mention they were playing Elsa's.... And I would say it is the other way around. Scouts are trying to do what Phantom has done. And Phantom connects with the crowd EVERY year. Even 09 got a good response from much of the crowd (not I... I actually dosed off... haha).

First, you could argue that by placement, Phantom has been more successful than Madison over the last couple years. Secondly, Phantom revisits old tunes somewhat frequently, one example being the 2008 revival of their classic Spartacus show. Many corps revisit songs that have been played before, recently 2009 and 10 Vanguard, 2007 BD, 2009 Bluecoats, etc. The Scouts, after straying from their roots for the better part of the decade, went back to their old style. Phantom, on the other hand, has always been the same old Phantom. And I don't see them changing in the future. Which is great.

Hopefully this will stop the ridiculous "Academy should tour like the big boys" complaints that pop up every year. Then again, I'm sure there's going to be someone out there with issues.

And part of me thinks that instead of a HS social/educational experience that many other HS marching bands can provide, DCI fills a need with college students. HS bandos (I really use that term endearingly and in no way mean it derogatory) now-a-days can very easily be enthusiastic about marching due to their HS experience and turn to drum corps to either fill the void left after graduation and/or take the experience to the next level. I'm not saying that's better or worse than potentially back in the day, but it is a benefit of the modern landscape of drum corps.

There is one "way of the old" that drum corps does not have to capture, and I believe it will continue to stay that way: No matter how much marching bands may provide the community service component that at one time was provided to a greater extent by drum corps then that now, the drum corps experience offers youth a social experience that cannot be duplicated in the schools. For those who want it and are willing to put in the hard work, the physical, musical and teamwork benefits of drum corps remain at the pinnacle of the marching activities and are well beyond the wonderful benefits one gets from their own marching bands. (This is not to diminish what youth get out of their marching bands...but it's just not the same thing.) I trust that this activity we all love will continue to be what people look to in order to experience the best of the best.

Good Evening, everyone. I'll admit... this is my first time reading, much less posting to DCP. In the 17 years I've been involved in drum corps, I usually stay away from this and other forums. And, judging by some of the banter on here, I can see why. For starters, some of what I'm hearing is borderline rude and an invasion of one's business. Whatever opinion you have of people involved in the activity, writing about the future of a corps after the current director "is no longer living"... well, that's a bit over the line of appropriateness, methinks. Call me the new guy, but if this is how we treat people..... I've been involved with Pioneer 08, 09, 11 and am now involved in teaching and planning for 2012. I'm a band director by trade, and have masters in music education and curriculum development/instructional design. To me, it's about the kids, and maximizing the experience for them, by them, and through the program. Making it the best it can be... just as many other staff members do. In my own way, and my own specialty, I hope to bring this to the table for 2012 as I could not by coming in later in the 2011 season. That being said, GUARDLING posted this: OHHHHH NOOOOOO!!! I didnt say that at all. Although I support anythinng they want to do..that's their thing are they a WC corps HELL NO!!!!! One of the corps I taught this summer we fgot to see them at times and the kids work hard no doubtbut its far from world class. Unfortunately ( and I didnt want to really get into this ) BUT I did over hear someof their staff speeches after a performance and although staff does need to encourage their members it was crazy, pipe dreams..blaming others before a the corps was even given scores....enough said...as I said they can do what they want. , But do I support that its their choice , sure,,,agree no, feel sorry...well maybe for some of the kids but thats it. Also if the kids are happy then , thats enough GUARDLING. Please contact me privately. I'm not sure what you saw or heard, but I want to know about it. In all of MY discussions with my brassline, and with the corps in general, this "blaming others" talk.... was not acceptable, and would not be tolerated. That being said, I would like to also know your definition of a "world class corps". I'd be curious to see of some of the other shows and corps I saw really match that qualification. In an activity that is somewhat dwindling by the year... I'd hate to see us continuously point fingers and be so judgmental. If I had a nickel for the number of staff members who have the air of pretentiousness that resembles the red carpet every time we showed up at show sites... as if this were Oscar night... well, let's just say no corps would have an issue even in this economy. And, this was not towards Pioneer, but in general. It seemed like many other staff from corps walked around like they were God's gift to drum corps. Seriously? Who taught them to be so unfriendly? Why would a kid want to join and be taught by people who seem to be in it to raise their own profile, rather than truly teach? A true sign that we must be doing something right: the number of members I and other staff have taught who move to other organizations in the top 12. There's an issue as well, but I don't think we're alone in corps #13-23. It's natural for others to have the desire to move up. We do it at jobs, we do it for schooling... but it's a bittersweet pill until things will get better every year. So, for those instructors from other corps who like to speak poorly about Pioneer or any other corps a student is coming in from to march with you, watch your tongue. We got them to you. And, as our webmaster explained... we are working on that and several other things to improve the group for 2012 and beyond. You've seen the show announcement. Thanks to the person who mentioned U2... I'm aware of the licensing issues. That's why we have backup ideas in place, and it's not final. Every corps has their own struggles and challenges, and I for one welcome the challenge to make progress and change happen in this organization. There's a satisfaction of being able to make an organization like Pioneer stay true to its' heritage while bringing it into the future and updating it. No thing is worthwhile that does not require work. We teach our members this, and we address it ourselves, in our own adult way. Sometimes, ensuring that an organization stays true to its' values requires slow yet meticulous growth for the long term, rather than changing something every year just because some design guru, tech guru, or other expert in the field says its the next, hot best thing... "everyone's doing it"... "you won't be cool if you don't". Thanks for listening. Lansing R. Dimon Brass Caption Head 2011, 2012 Pioneer Drum and Bugle Corps

Just a suggestion ........ why not move Indy up a week .. name it the US Championships .. then have a real World Championships at a Real stadium. It still honors the Championship portion with the Indy ppl ... it's the week before finals so it would still get a draw. I'm sure there is an issue with the 3 day event turning into a 1 day event ... but I think it's an option that should be explored. And to answer anyone who would cry that JB Crum would be diminished .. just make it a 1 day event like it used to be. You can fit both in the same weekend. It's only a 10 hour drive down the road.

I have an nice story to tell... definitely was my favorite thing of DCI 2011... Saturday night, the DCI Event Staff went into 'rain plan' mode, and Cadets and Blue Devils pits were allowed to warm up indoors in the loading dock, which is sort of the 'pre-staging' area of the stadium. The two pits were really getting after it and doing a nice job going through a warmup routine. It was freaking loud in there. Then, the Cavaliers entire corps came in, as this is also the place where there is a water table and many corps circle up for final thoughts from the directors, and they also sing their corps songs. Blue Devils and Cadets pits BOTH stopped and listened as the Cavaliers sang "Over the Rainbow" and "We Are the Corps the Cavaliers." It was awesome, and one of those things that, as I say, "Drum Corps is all about." :smile: I was proud of the kids and staffs of all of those corps.

I am very excited that BAC & Phantom will be coming out west. However, with all due respect to Phantom, I would have loved to see another corps make the trip to the left coast (Carolina Crown, I am looking at you!). It was great seeing them last year, but if only 2 non-West corps make the trip, it would have been great to see a new face. I think that California kinda gets the shaft when it comes to drum corps shows. Given the population power of California (see below) I wish that more groups traveled out west. Fun facts about California -If it were an independent country, California would rank 34th in population in the world -One in Eight Americans lives in California -Three of the top 10 most populous cities are in California (LA, San Diego, San Jose) -There are more youth in California high schools than the total population of 17 states -If California was it's own country, it would have the 7th largest Gross Domestic Product in the world

You underestimate the willpower of a robot that knows it has an iron deficiency.

This is my fear: The robots will go rogue and start eating the pit percussion instruments, starting with the woodblocks. It can happen.

I will give you one specific example of 'connecting with fans' that some corps have maybe matched, but not surpassed: Early 1990's, Ames Field, Michigan City Indiana. Competition is over. Great shows. Back then all corps lined up on field (like Finals night now) and as each score was announced the DM would accept the score, go back to their corps and the corps would play a song as they left the field.....basically saluting the corps above them. As each corps left, the Lake Michigan fog rolled in and over the field. We could see less and less. Phantom Regiment 'won' the competition and by the time they played to the fans, we could not see them. They played Amazing Grace. There are no words to describe what that sounded like as it came to us through the fog. I doubt the corps saw that a lot of the crowd was standing and many of the rest of us were crying......it connected to the crowd.

.....let's see..... In 2008 huge sections of the viewing crowd at Championships would jump up from their seats to shout 'I AM Sparticus' and cheer as the show finishes. Perhaps you couldnt hear that on the recordings, but people were screaming and cheering - especially at Final night with the ultimate death. NO SHOW has as many people up cheering, crying, screeming. 2010 - as the corps runs into the tunnel there is standing and cheering, Into the Light. 2011 - as Juliet tried to wake Romeo at midfield, she realizes he is dead, grabs his dagger, climbs the podium and stabs herself. THIS lead to as big as a cheer as any Madison show. But, I guess the point is in this thread to 'prove' Madison was, is and will be better. A bit hard to prove, IMHO........

Really? IF you followed Phantom Regiment you would know that songs like Amazing Grace, Elsa's and Nessun Dorma have rotated through the corps encore presentations and warmups for decades. Perhaps you can explain why you believe Phantom is following Madison's 'successes'? Could it be possible that MADISON is copying Phantom's successful 'recreation' of its early 80's version of Sparticus? After all, Phantom has had a bit more success in placement the last few years, so isn't Madison doing their best to create Phantom's success(es)???

Sounds like someone with a grudge.