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I'm trying real hard to think of a way to respond to this that does not come off as insulting but I just can't think of anything. So this is the best I've got......... What you have just said in the above is absolutely stupid. It's also just plain MEAN! "They shouldn't use the same name because they are not at the same level they once were"? I'm sorry, but that is completely moronic and juvenile. It's a good thing the Blue Stars didn't take to your philosophy. Thankfully, your opinion is not important. The current "VKYAO" organization is called "The Velvet Kinghts" and nothing you say is going to ever change that. Derailed....

This is the crux of the argument, IMO. The history of drum corps is one mostly of Darwinism, where only the strong survive. Corps with the business sense to thrive financially continue to exist while corps without the business know-how fold: it's really that simple. Blue Devils, SCV, Mandarins, etc. have been able to figure out how to continually travel to the east coast and mid-west wile still being financially solvent. Many corps have folded because they could not financially sustain themselves. As much as I would LOVE to have DCI Finals on the west coast; as much as I think California (Southern or Northern) is a beautiful destination for drum corps fans; as much as I want to play the "but BD, SCV, Mandarins, Troopers, Blue Knights, Crusaders, PC, Impulse, VK, etc. have to travel a lot every year" card; as easy as it would be to use attendance numbers from 2007 as the most attended DCI Championships in decades. DCI should do NOTHING, including holding Championships on the West Coast, that isn't the be best financial interests of the organization. That's really the end of this debate: if holding Championships in San Francisco is not in DCI best financially interests, then it shouldn't be done.

Basing your argument on how many championships have been won in a given region eliminates the concept of practicality. At that point it becomes about what is fair, or what individual corps do or don't deserve more than it is about practicality. So no, it is not practical to have championships on the West coast. Would it be nice to do if it were practical, sure. Don't get me wrong, I hate it for the west coast corps, but the fact is, the western half of our country is big and empty. There aren't anywhere near as many people, much less corps between Kansas City and California as there are from Kansas City to DC. That's the reality of living on the West Coast in general. If you want to go anywhere that isn't on the west coast, you're going to travel farther. Stuff is more spread out on that half of the country. Again, DCI has survived largely due to savvy business operations. Making the majority of the member base, not to mention fan base travel twice as far to championships, simply to satisfy the minority is just not good business sense.

Hey, whoa everybody. Hold it a minute. Time out. *whistling through my fingers* I've got something that will settle this whole (somewhat comical) dispute. Daniel mantioned "The VK Brand". Ok, lets talk about that but lets use a different comparison than Blue Stars. I'm an open Madison Scouts fan so how about a comparison of their brand? Wait, hold it. Sssshhhh. I'm not done yet. You think I'm going to talk about their success along with their ups and downs, don't you? No, I'm not. Instead, I'm going to talk about DCP. What? (entertained yet?). LOL! This is fun. Ok, SO! *cracking my knuckles* There are some corps that you can't get through a single thread without them being mentioned. Due to a similar brand as VK (that being the "the entertainment factor"), you can't get through most threads or most days on DCP without someone turning the conversation toward Madison (see? I just did it.). VK, though not quite as popular of a discussion is an interesting animal because they do manage to pop up in discussion more than most (if not all) corps currently active in Open Class and as we've seen in this very thread, sometimes under some very passionate opinions (both positive and negative). So, do you want me to prove that VKYAO is keeping the "VK brand alive" ? Look at this very thread. Here is this little tiny Open Class corps that didn't even go to Indy last year. Harmless and hardly a threat to any corps in this activity and look at all the attention they are getting on the WORLD CLASS forum. Only the true spirit of the brand known as "The Velvet Knights" could possibly do that. Yeah, VK is still alive. Thank you VKYAO for keeping something that is very unique and special alive in the drum corps activity, as humble of a feat as that is for you at the moment.

OK so this is one of my all time favorite Corps - Ever. 1979 was my favorite offering from North Star. Between the fun arrangements, Jerry Noonan's domination of the Soprano Bugle, and the complete awesomeness that was the "Chrome Wall" it was the complete package. I saw it live in Denver that year and have it on my play list both in my car and my office. If you haven't seen it or heard it - do yourself a favor and buy it!

Look back through the posts. Someone asks "doesn't VK still exist" and he says "no". Then in a later post says "they should not use the name". Tell me that isnt just plain mean. Yeah, you're right. I get it. Still doesn't make it right though. I'll back off.

When I was looking at this Wikipedia page, I noticed that the following DCI World Championship finalist corps don't have their own Wikipedia page. Perhaps some DCP folk can help take care of this. Please post a note if you're interested in working on a certain corps' page and others can offer to join you to help it get created. 27th Lancers Bridgemen Suncoast Sound Sky Ryders Guardsmen Muchachos North Star Oakland Crusaders Seneca Optimists Black Knights De La Salle Oaklands Des Plaines Vanguard Dutch Boy Purple Lancers Royal Crusaders Stockton Commodores

What you have said here makes about as much relevant sense as the following mush... Fire engines are red because they have 8 wheels and 4 people ride it. 8 and 4 is 12. Twelve inches is a foot. A foot is 30cm. 30cm is a ruler. Queen Elizabeth was a ruler. Queen Elizabeth was the name of a ship that sailed in the sea. Fish swim in the sea. Fish have fins. The Finns fought the Russians. And that's why Fire Engines are Red. Blah! The"Future Corps" or the "Magic Kingdom Korps played on "drums and bugles". G BUGLES as a matter of fact. But who cares? I doubt anyone (besides you) gives a dried cat crap what you "call" those two groups. The fact is, they are awesome videos that carry just as much relevance to the activity as anything else posted on this thread. Oh, and as for your reasoning that the "Disney Corps are not drum corps because they no longer exist? WTH is the relevant logic in that statement? Completely irrelevant to anything. If we go by your reasoning on that issue, I guess the 27th Lancers were not a drum corps either because they no longer exist? Blah! Who cares? Call them what you want. Not the point at all. Oh, and lastly. The Disney Corps were not "kids". They were pros.

I'm a nerd so I ran some of the numbers. Looking at the top 25 world class corps, its clear that a west coast championships is not practical for the corps we currently have involved in the circuit. The total and average miles driven would be nearly doubled, 2 corps and their fans would be asked to travel over 3,000 miles, and in general, it would require far more travel in contrast to any of the other 3 scenarios. Championships in the DC area (hypothetical east coast location) would also be impractical in comparison, although much more advantageous to more groups than a Santa Clara championships. The lowest total number of miles traveled would be, not surprisingly, where championships currently reside in indianapolis. There is a solid argument, however for a championships somewhere like Kansas City. The average miles traveled would be a little higher, but there is a bit more parity in the numbers traveled by each corps. Bottom line is, Indy is where championships are, and will be for the foreseeable future. It is, in fact, centrally located for the existing corps in the DCI circuit. There are far more corps on the eastern side of the country than on the west. Its is unfortunate for the west coast corps who often have to travel a bit more, but the fact is, that's the problem with a national championship. You can't please everyone. From the corps base of operations, to Indianapolis: Cadets 622 miles Blue Devils 2229 miles Cavaliers 187 miles Crown 595 miles Phantom Regiment 269 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 2282 miles Bluecoats 302 miles Crusaders 975 miles Blue Stars 463 miles Madison Scouts 320 miles Blue Knights 1085 miles Spirit 534 miles Glassmen 222 miles Troopers 1078 miles Academy 1690 miles Colts 375 miles Crossmen 1173 miles Pacific Crest 2042 miles Mandarins 2164 miles Teal Sound 849 miles Blue Devils B 2229 miles Seattle Cascades 2246 miles Vanguard Cadets 2282 miles Jersey Surf 672 miles Spartans 995 miles Total miles = 23,882 Average number of miles driven = 955.28 Lowest number of miles driven = 187 Highest number of miles driven = 2282 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 11 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 7 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0 Same numbers if championships were in Santa Clara: Cadets 2880 miles Blue Devils 54 miles Cavaliers 2158 miles Crown 2684 miles Phantom Regiment 2116 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 0 miles Bluecoats 2535 miles Crusaders 3128 miles Blue Stars 2104 miles Madison Scouts 2122 miles Blue Knights 1301 miles Spirit 2436 miles Glassmen 2388 miles Troopers 1173 miles Academy 723 miles Colts 2030 miles Crossmen 1696 miles Pacific Crest 372 miles Mandarins 118 miles Teal Sound 2759 miles Blue Devils B 54 miles Seattle Cascades 839 miles Vanguard Cadets 0 miles Jersey Surf 2935 miles Spartans 3146 miles Total miles = 41,751 Average number of miles driven = 1,670 Lowest number of miles driven = 0 Highest number of miles driven = 3,146 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 17 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 11 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 2 Kansas City: Cadets 1103 miles Blue Devils 1785 miles Cavaliers 522 miles Crown 972 miles Phantom Regiment 480 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 1842 miles Bluecoats 783 miles Crusaders 1431 miles Blue Stars 468 miles Madison Scouts 458 miles Blue Knights 599 miles Spirit 802 miles Glassmen 735 miles Troopers 814 miles Academy 1194 miles Colts 393 miles Crossmen 812 miles Pacific Crest 1595 miles Mandarins 1719 miles Teal Sound 1188 miles Blue Devils B 1785 miles Seattle Cascades 1890 miles Vanguard Cadets 1842 miles Jersey Surf 1155 miles Spartans 1449 miles Total miles = 27,786 Average number of miles driven = 1,111 Lowest number of miles driven = 393 Highest number of miles driven = 1890 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 13 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 0 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0 Baltimore MD (lets pick a spot central to the East Coast just for giggles): Cadets 142 miles Blue Devils 2798 miles Cavaliers 717 miles Crown 479 miles Phantom Regiment 789 miles Santa Clara Vanguard 2885 miles Bluecoats 339 miles Crusaders 410 miles Blue Stars 982 miles Madison Scouts 848 miles Blue Knights 1672 miles Spirit 699 miles Glassmen 472 miles Troopers 1827 miles Academy 878 miles Colts 878 miles Crossmen 1639 miles Pacific Crest 2643 miles Mandarins 2732 miles Teal Sound 749 miles Blue Devils B 2798 miles Seattle Cascades 2765 miles Vanguard Cadets 2885 miles Jersey Surf 119 miles Spartans 428 miles Total miles = 30,775 Average number of miles driven = 1,231 Lowest number of miles driven = 119 Highest number of miles driven = 2885 Number of corps asked to drive more than 1,000 miles = 10 Number of corps asked to drive more than 2,000 miles = 6 Number of corps asked to drive more than 3,000 miles = 0

The Blue Stars spent a lot of years living in the shadow of the Div I years from back in the '70s. Some of those years were good and some not so good; but, they didn't stop when things would sometimes seem like "what the h**l" and the goal of returning the organization to Div I and top 12 status was attained. The members of the Velvet Knights are probably feeling the same way with the expectation to look and be what once was.

perfect fit for your group!

My comments were in response to your continued lack of respect for us "dinos", the senior circuit, corps who don't tow the line (e.g., touring, amount of shows etc.) and pretty much anything pre-90s.

So hard to decide. Suncoast Sound, Freelancers, Argonne Rebels, Skyryders, Bridgemen, and I wish I could have seen the legendary Belleville Black Knights in person.... But honestly, 27th Lancers came to mind first.

I have been excited by numerous APRIL FOOLS JOKES put on DCP over the years. I am a alumnus of Dutch Boy and I realize this was in poor taste. Please except my apology.

The North Star from North Shore, Massachusetts

they spend within their means, even less than their means. We've all seen stories about Pioneer and those old busses, and I'm sure even with repairs it may be cheaper than leasing. They dont go out and order new guard uniforms at mid season every year. Sure, ok maybe the pay has chased off big name staff, but it's kept them alive. There is more to success at the World Class level than placement, and if you really look, some of the best run corps financially are not the ones at the top of the competitive rankings.

TITLE OF PROPOSED CHANGE: Member control and tracking tools. 1. Ankle Bracelets 2. Shock Collars 3. Handcuffs 4. Lie detectors 5. Confinement aids. (cages or holding rooms) DESCRIPTION: Allowing the use of shock collars and ankle bracelet tracking devises. PURPOSE: (why make this change-what are the benefits.) Members need to perform and execute at a high level of perfection. In order to insure members execute and perform at a high level, they must control their free will. Historically, instructors have relied on traditional methods of instruction to encourage high levels of performance. Using control and monitoring tools, will allow instructors to inflict a humane level of pain to members that fail to perform to the expectations of the instruction staff. The use of tracking devices, will allow corps to control and monitor the movements of each member. When a member fails to make rehearsal on time, they can be tracked and a shock can be administered to discourage this behavior. If the member is out of shock range, they can be tracked by the ankle bracelet and found. Once they are found, they can be handcuffed and transported back to corps custody. If members fail to respond in a positive manor, they can be placed in a confinement tool until they are ready to resume a high performance level. EDUCATIONAL IMPACT: (How does this benefit the students educationally?) A student’s ability to focus and learn the skills needed to be successful will be greatly enhanced. Knowing that you must perform or you will experience humane levels of physical discomfort, will accelerate ones desire to improve. CREATIVE IMPACT: (How does this affect the creative aspects of the activity?) Drum corps has become stagnant. Over the last few years we have seen many changes, with the introduction of amplification and keyboards, the level of performance has peaked. Something needs to be done to force the activity to improve to the next level. Mandating high levels of performance through control and tracking devises will help to achieve this goal. Bringing the activity to the next level, will result in better executed shows and improve the overall effect. FISCAL IMPACT: (How will this financially affect individual corps and the DCI organization?) The corps will have an increased cost, depending on the amount of devices they use. These devices must be regularly maintenanced and monitored to insure they work properly. There is also energy costs involved with running such devises as shock collars and ankle bracelet monitoring. Each member should be required to purchase their own devises. Corps can offset the cost by purchasing equipment through law enforcement agencies that can often get them at discounted rates. This proposal will not have a financial impact on the D.C.I. Organization. AUDIENCE IMPACT: (How will this affect our audience and their perceptions of the activity?) Our audience have longed for the activity to reach a higher level. These tools should deliver that higher level. While most of our drum corps fans will support this change, there will always be a minority that will object to any changes. This change should not be published in any show programs or mentioned or referenced by show announcers. Groups like Amnesty International could possibly object to these practices, if they are widely published. SHOW PROMOTER IMPACT: (How will this affect the show promoters-financially and logistically as it relates to contest production?) This proposal will not have any effect on show promoters. LOGISTICS IMPACT: (How will this impact the operations of the individual drum corps and the DCI organization?) With the new ability to track all members and control their movement, we will be able to make sure they are where they need to be, when they are needed to be there. This means shows will start on time and members will be ready to go. This will have no impact on the DCI organization. JUDGING IMPACT: (how does this impact the adjudication process and individual judge?) No impact is foreseen, with this proposal. Submitted by: The spirit of Kim Jung il 1 Main Ave North Korea

If daniel is offensive, I'd like a forum full of these offensive trolls...asap.

I was at a DCI directors' meeting several years ago when Dan Acheson asked the directors to each respond to the question, "Why do you do drum corps?" One of the greatest things I've ever heard about the activity was when Colts' Greg Orwoll responded, "I do drum corps because I don't know how not to do drum corps."

Thank you, I actually had missed those. I usually just go right to the forums myself, unless something on the front page just jumps out at me.

Sshhh!

VK beat BD in some captions when I was marching. Several guys I marched with (snare line) left BD to march VK. THAT was the actual spirit of the VK brand.

Please try to show some passion in your posts.

I guess I'd shrug it off since it's not anything that hasn't been said a thousand times over . . . just not necessarily on this forum. And if I realized who the person is who made the offending remark I'd probably sit up and pay attention to what he has to say. One thing's for sure, I wouldn't want someone to freak out while "defending" my corps in full view of the DC community. If it really bothers you so much, just let it go. As it is you're only making things worse.

I like the idea. The weather is pretty nice out there year-round, and there's next to no humidity to speak of. I know that it will be tough on some of the eastern corps, but going all of the way across the country is tough on the west coast corps too. And having DCI on the west coast only one time in 40 years isn't really good. The 2007 Finals was one of the best attended of all time, so why not try and capture that audience?

That's good news! Thank you and I hope others follow your lead.

What about someone stating ( for example ) the colors of the new flags in a review. Unless the observer was color blind, their observation would be " factual ", no ?.... or the number of Tubas the Corps put out on the field, etc... or what Corps won DCI in 1975, etc... or who taught brass line of Bridgemen in 1977 or Carolina Crown in 2011, etc and so forth. It seems to me there are LOTS of things that a person could post on DCP beyond just the scores, and it could be considered " factual ". So your comment that " NOTHING on DCP is factual ( beyond the "scores" ) is ironically not " factual "

Here's a couple more...

Hey, these are drum corps too. PROFESSIONAL drum corps. One in each American Disney Theme park. Too bad they both disbanded.

I agree with you, except some people treat ANY news from corps as hype.... That's including the perennial top 12 corps. It sort of takes the fun out of the winter but it's the cool thing to do on DCP these days...

I just want to point out that the gas prices are much higher in CA than the rest of the country.

Well it looks so far like the TOP 3, Most want back competing again are: 1 -- 27th Lancers 2 -- SoCal Kingsmen 3 -- Bridgemen Wow, any of them would be Fantastic. But, there were so many others mentioned that were so good also. They ARE missed by so many. A tribute to what they gave us ALL. Just the mention of their name's, bring back so many Memories. Here it is 30, 40, or more years later, and we STILL think of them ALL.

Oh what the heck.... on this Day of "Resurrection" I'd wish we could bring'em ALL back.

If there was more presence, people here would complain that the corps was over-hyped and should have waited for their show to speak for them. Unless they're a perennial top-12 corps. Then it's being transparent and fan-friendly. Tell me it isn't true.

How about a compromise: Ressurect the 1980 27th Lancers and the 1980 Blue Devils for a rematch at DCI! I wouldn't give a second chance to some of the judges that night, but if you're a BD fan or former member, you may have a differing point of view.

Both of these points are about southern California, not the bay area.

Any one, or All of the following. (But 27th and or Kingsmen, would be what I would want MOST.) 1 -- 27th Lancers 2 -- (SoCal) Kingsmen 3 -- Haw. Muchachos 4 -- Bayonne Bridgemen -- (as a Competing Corps) 5 -- Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights -- (as a competing Corps) 6 -- Chicago Royal Airs -- (as a Full Size competng Corps) 7 -- Toronto Optimists -- (as a competing Corps) 8 -- Sky Ryders 9 -- Etobo. Crusaders 10 - North Star

1. 27th Lancers 2. Suncoast Sound 3. Bridgemen 4. St. Ignatius All Girls 5. Knights (with the gray and purple uniforms!)

Bridgemen, 27th Lancers, etc. Great corps from the past I would love to see out there again. But what I would rather do: Recreate DCI where everyone could afford to field a corps and not charge it's membership an arm and a leg. Maybe have oh, American Legion or VFW help sponsor. Then drum corps would be an activity for everyone and there would be a local corps a kid could march with.....

27th Lancers and a close second...Hawthorne Muchachos

isn't VK already back? I'd say Star or 27...close third Bayonne does moving Xmen back to PA count?

Well..those HS stadiums are used for a LOT more than just football games. Football may have been their raison initiale d'etre, but now the use for that facility extends well beyond football. The issue -- just as it is now -- would be funding. If the music department is already largely self-supporting through boosters, then it would probably keep going. If the school is funded entirely through the school, I could see school boards slashing funding in the absence of football. I agree with Piper -- drum corps and HS MB are all part of the same food chain. If competitive HS MBs disappear, it would severely impact drum corps ( in a multitude of ways).

I would definitely make the trip if they moved there!

Every time I heard him play it, this guy never missed "The Note" in Mag 7.

Nice! Cool program! Herrmann is always great on the field. "Uninvited" is a beautiful tune, and Crazy Train... well, I'm eager to see what the group does with it. I bet it rocks!

I had my bucks bronzed following the 81' season, so I don't know anything of what may have happened "south of the border" that brought said DM to New England for a year. What I can say, from several trusted sources, is that as a DM, instructor and overall member he was an exceptional addition to the 83' Hurricanes! .....I would have enjoyed marching behind him.

I was born 1957 but was told at least some corps did it..... Here's that 58 vid I mentioned earlier, has the arm swing. Also Cabs have a lot of full show vids, early 60 ones have the arm swing. http://www.hawthornecaballeros.org/?q=content/media

2012 cannot get here soon enough, IMO!

Such love for a Silver medalist!! Such a warm and raucous ovation! I know the scores were close but that Bloomington crowd really showed both corps the respect they deserved!! Makes you wonder what the crowd saved for the first place corps...whoever that was???