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Contra* in G <> Contra in Bb. The old contras projected outdoors much better than the B-flats do. The fact that hornlines are going to 80 is further proof that the entire G Bugle lines projected better than the B-flats, cuz only now are we starting to forget about the G Bugles. And when you expand the hornline, you need MORE of the lowest voices (proportionally) to counteract the acoustics of the outdoors. 16 contras of an 80 member hornline is 20%. When hornlines were 64 members with 12 contras, that was 18.8% (OK for G or Bb). Another tidbit: Playing contra takes a great amount of effort. Playing it WELL takes a great amount of finesses and care. Trust me, you'd rather have 16 players playing at FF instead of 12 playing at FFF for equivalent balance. Finally, with some drill writers not even paying attention to staging/acoustics, 16 is the absolute minimum for a Bb Contra line to be heard and felt when all are close to the back sideline, and the entire drum corps is playing full out. (If the synth is doubling them, forget about it...diff thread, lol) SCV will be marching 16 (you're welcome). *PS: I don't get hung up on instrument names/keys. For me, All of them are Tubas. The circular over-the-shoulder thing is called a Sousaphone (and they are made in diff keys too). The on-shoulder marching thing we know is called a Contra (regardless of key). I reserve "tuba" for concert instruments. For example, I've said this many times over the last few years "Hey folks, bring your tuba to audition camp since we may not have enough contras. No sousaphones!" See? perfectly clear.

It's either that or themselves.

EMBD Entertain me, Blue Devils!

Did someone say strip searches were involved?

Really? Sorry "Mr. Ed", and everyone else....I DO take this seriously, along with the many other individuals competing FOR REAL that night, trying NOT to make a mockery of DCA! Let's not forget....this was, and still IS a COMPETITION! The rules are set for a reason.....having that many people out there, in rediculous costumes, milling about for 30 minutes, (if not longer), told alot of people, INCLUDING THE BOARD OF DCA that you didn't care about rules, and you were going to do it your way. Banned? I would have banned you too! So...."Lighten up"??? HELL NO!!!!

Is there a way we can keep this thread on topic please. I hate nothing more than wanting to read an update about the 2012 Crossmen and then step right into a Woodwinds [in DCI] discussion. I am pretty sure there is a thread for this specifically. No offense to anyone, I just want me some Crossmen news

Let's just say the Bucs are alive and doing very well. Can't wait for Wildwood.

No one in the 2011 top 12.

I moved to Athens, GA this weekend and got to go to Spirit's show and Tell session on Sunday. I could not believe it. They were fantastic and there was a super cool and relaxed vibe at camp. Heard that Freddy Martin did a session with the corps. That must have been pretty sweet. I didn't get to see them last year, though almost auditioned. Was happy for them getting back in. One of the staff members, I don remember his name, think it is Matt, did a good job or filling us in to more details of their Sin City show. Each movement they played seemed to go right with what he described. The group sounds fantastic and LOUD!, of course we were in a cafetorium so that helped with volume. GREAT soloist and small brass ensemble. Some trumpets with high chops for sure. I loved the arrangements. The jazz stuff is really gonna be sweet and the ballad is beautiful. Lots of groove, the kind you would expect with what was described as some highroller taking on the Vegas strip and owning it big time. I have some friends who will be marching there and they seem super happy. I wish them the best of luck and can't imagine this not being another great year for them. PS For the people highly confused about what we woodwind players can bring to the table, I am typing this while looking at my DCI world championship ring, me, a clarinet player that picked up a trumpet for the first time year and a half ago. Oh, and I am aging out this year paying lead trumpet with my corps because I CAN!

what???! I thought that was for the blue guys! (I keed I keed!)

The simplest answer is almost always the right answer. In order to operate, The Cadets need more money from appearance fees than do the Blue Devils. It seems pretty clear.

Well, i'm not looking at the schedule right now, but I would assume its because they start in California thus not as many shows as starting in the mid-west and if I recall the shows in California start a little later than when The Cavaliers/Cadets start. I am actually about to look at the schedule myself. So I have a feeling i'm gonna have to edit this soon.

Troopers have fourteen tubas this year.

true. however, and we've gone round about this in the past, your delivery is what causes you the issue here

Even with 12 tubas who can all play, you don't need to have their part doubled in the synth. Wish every corps would do that. I can't stand obnoxious subwoofer when I want to hear a strong brass choir.

I like the look (and sound) of a large contra line myself. The problem is now that most corps are doing so much bass doubling with their synths it doesn't seem worth the cost of those expensive horns. Now if they'd just stop doing that all would be right with the world.

Academy is marching 16 contras

Doesn't sound very Cesario friendly.

Sorry from start to finish, 89 Regiment and yes, I am a "homer" and proud of it.

Because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If I am paying upwards of $100 to see Finals every year (which I am), plus the cost of travel, plus the cost of lodging, should I be obligated to applaud for everyone just for the sake of applauding, or can I have my own opinion about what I like and what I dislike?

No worries. I can handle a minus...

Can someone please explain to me exactly what Blue Devils have done to SO completely revolutionize the activity that we are now comparing them to Apple?? Doing weird shows just doesn't fit that bill for me.

We've shared a few, been very nice to talk to, actually. Admittedly, I took a few years off, when he/she registered their account. That first time GT2 saw me posting, there were definitely some interesting exchanges (mostly because GT2 thought I was somehow trying to stir up stuff, when in reality we had both had our accounts for years, just hadn't posted siumultaneously). With all of the flame throwing, trolling, and setting some people up--- I've never gotten a hateful PM. Most people take me for what I am: A discussion instigator. As I was telling Hostrauser, my role on the forum is really to bring out the silliness of taking this place so seriously. I also, although some people can't see past the "over the topness", contribute some information and useful content to the forum. We march around in old quasi military uniforms, altered by gay men, to music that most people don't recognize, everyone thinks we are marcihng band, we pay to do it---it is hilarious we talk of ourselves with so much snobbery.

And contrary to what Lee believes, it's an important distinction to make. When I first saw the header of the other thread, I initially made the Crunchy Frog/Renegades connection in my head. Why? Because it was only natural, given the 'publicity blitz' from when Crunchy Frog first appeared. I don't have any problem at all with Jeff's clarification. Quite the contrary, I thought he was pretty classy about it.

Says the crossmen homer with a regiment name and avatar.

FYI for you Crunchy Frog fans: "Crunchy Frog" nor Lee Rudnicki is officially connected with, funded, supported, or endorsed by the Renegades Association of California, or any of its performing groups, including the Renegades Drum & Bugle Corps and the Jim Ott Brass Ensemble. That is all!

but you didn't NOT say that he had to spray rainbows and glitter everywhere ....

As you probably know, DCI is celebrating a 40th birthday this summer, which is good. Also, they are having a special celebration, which is good. When I heard that they were going to do this, I thought it was great.....until I saw the "packages". The bottom line is that unless you shell out at least $79 minimum in advance, you are not celebrating anything. Frankly, I find that to be a bit "steep", and I have informed them of that feeling. Whereas the $79 does include some things, such as a post-contest party, shirt/pin/patch, in addition to the on-field celebration.....I stated that perhaps they should have an "alternative" where the cost is little to nothing (ie perhaps a token $10, with a pass you can purchase at the show....this would keep those who are not affiliated from doing it) in order to go down to the on-field ceremony and stand with your former corps. They expressed no interest in anything below the $79 package. DCI championships is already a fairly expensive venture......Indy's an airport with few non-stops and few discount flights, great show seats are costly. and a venue that is average at best for sound (I will say they have improved it a bit) It would be totally out of hand if it were not for the fact that I will admit that lodging is not too bad, and you can also find reasonably priced food. I think that they are asking a bit much for people who gave years of their lives to drum corps to just walk down onto the field and stand with others from their corps who did the same. I just happened to look, and out of the 400 corps that have marched in DCI, they currently only have registrations of alumni from 32 at the moment....ie, not even 10% of the corps, even including several finalists. I can't help but think that in these tough economic times, they could have thousands more alumni participate if they considered an economical option for those who don't have money to burn. I have no problem with them offering these packages, and I do understand that profits they make are returned to the corps. However, I do think anyone who is at DCI who is an alum of a corps should be given this "moment" at a cheaper cost......especially if they are already there with purchased tickets. My other idea deals with the Anaheim Kingsmen, DCI's first champion. If I read the story correctly.....they lost prelims by 3.2 points, finishing third. Going into finals, they pretty much felt that their chances for the title were nearly zero. They had new uniforms, with shows left after DCI. There was some drizzle happening before retreat, and they made the decision to not risk messing up the uniforms due to the upcoming shows, and only sent the drum major out there. The members were on the buses. They were confused when people started passing by them in the parking lot yelling congratulations, not comprehending that they had won the title. So, the members were not on the field for the scores and championship announcement. Would this celebration not be a good time to do that, with their former members ON THE FIELD?? They wouldn't have to announce the entire '72 top 12....just the top 3 would be fine, and it would take a whole minute and a half. If they wait until the 50th, it will make it rougher on aging alumni. I actually felt they should have done it at the Rose Bowl when their large alumni corps put on quite a show. I don't see what the problem is with giving these alum a moment they deserve to have. Let me also state that I am an eastern corps alumni and have zero affiliation with Anaheim, nor has anyone from them requested this, though I think it would be a fantastic gesture on DCI's part. I am curious as to how others feel about these things as well. GB

Lìu kills herself as well. Double the murders, double the fun!

I agree with ChaddyT Entertain me Blue Devils... Like you seem to do ALMOST every year!

I think they have over 80+ horns. but will march 80. Should be a great year for Boston.

Actually, Boston IS starting in California, just like BD. If I recall, Blue Devils usually have fewer shows than most of their competitors (we've had this discussion here in past years). They also tend not to house people during Spring training and they also rehearse less than many corps~but it seems to work for them. Good luck to all in the start of the season next month. Eat'em up, Boston.

My name is Barnabus Collins and I approve this post.

Well, I had intended to go back to the Sam Ash store where I bought the pad to see if I could try their demo pad on any of their stands. I didn't go yet, but I have free time to do so this weekend. I'll definitely post an update with pictures if I find a stand that works well. Thanks for following up! Those are some good ideas, Kevin. Thanks for the response. The bottom of the pad doesn't have that threaded screw-in capability, though. I noticed some Remo pads have that capability, and it seems fairly useful. I'm not at home right now to take a picture of the bottom of the pad, but I found this one online. Look at the right where the hand is: The purple border is the wooden base, and then there's a thin, black, foam-like disc lying on top of that. That foam-like surface is sturdy enough to practice on and tire out your muscles on. As you noted, this probably means it's probably designed for countertop playing. I still want a stand, though, so I don't have to always be at the counter when I practice. I might end up going with your build idea if I don't find a suitable stand. I'll go check out some stands first, and then if I can't find one that holds it high and steady without the grips getting in the way, I'll consider the DIY method you proposed. I just want it to be sturdy, stable, and comfortable. Looks aren't important. Edit: Also, I'll go email Vic Firth. I don't know why I didn't think of that before. :)

only if the synth parts would be doubling

Bones is going with 12. Been hearing some excellent sounds from the dogs this year.

Sorry Mike , I accepted a lot of changes through the years but woodwinds is where I draw the line and I know that you are for them but they belong in BANDS and bands only ! We have high school and college band associations so the can compete with other and so do drum corps and I really don't want to see string instruments out on the field either but they got their foot in the door anyway so to speak , I'm for percussion , brass and colorguard only and yes synth's are included also , although so many arrangers are blasting the ears off a lot of people such as myself , with that all said I want drum corps to stay drum corps and band to stay band !

I wouldn't call Lady Gaga innovative either. Maybe Creative? Certainly popular... Apple is certainly creative, too! Apple didn't invent the idea of digital music or downloadable music. There were many mp3 players on the market before the first iPods ( Creative Zen, Diamond Rio). Apple refined the genre to a state where it could better achieve critical mass. iTunes ( SoundJam Media Player) started out as a media player application that Apple purchased from other people around 2000, and have developed it to what it is today. Apple leveraged the Mac brand and their software development prowess to get into the portable music area. They weren't first, but they were good at combining and refining their Mac feel, Quicktime, and OSX experiences into the iPod, and then later the iPhone products. This is all a natural progression to me; a refinement. I guess you guys are right. Maybe that is innovation. Apple has gotten the masses to buy into these types of products. I guess my point is that Apple did not create these ideas from scratch though... These items needed to be made and nobody else was willing to take a chance and make them the way they should have been made. Oh, the Newton was a great PDA that was WAY ahead of its time. That was a case where Apple innovated from scratch. We just weren't ready for that one. I have a Compaq Tablet that came out before the iPad and is much less of a walled garden. Tablets have been around for over a decade. Apple did help make them popular... Really, the only things that BD and Apple have in common are that they're both in the same region of the state of California and both are excellent at what they do. Both a creative.

Just thought that I'd add some evidentiary support here. I've attended the Murfreesboro show for going on thirteen years now. Surprisingly enough, the crowd is well-informed about drum corps history, the present things going on with the corps/staffs, and responds well to every show with tons of enthusiasm...except for BD since '04 (with a good response to the first half of '07 as well). Why? Because the shows don't engage the audience. Art can be successful on multiple levels if you allow it to be. I see BD's shows as of late not as avant guarde, but as forced pseudo-intellectualism. If one has the intent to make something high-brow, he or she usually fails and the product turns out to be "weird" or disjointed. It was mentioned in another post that BD's design team is so in sync with one another. Maybe they've reached a point where they aren't fully aware of their designs? Maybe they can no longer self-edit? Who knows...until they realize that engaging most of the audience is the goal, they'll be bashed on here and in the stands.

Good reply! You prove my point in your response. Apple is great at refinement, but I wouldn't call it innovation. They are masters of making a uniform experience across platforms. There were methods of listening to and purchasing digital music before the iPod and iTunes. Apple made the experience uniform. There were tablets before the iPad. The familiarity of the iPad and iPhone made people go to them, not innovation. So, I believe that Apple is a GREAT company with very talented people. I just think that they have historically been innovators so much as they have been masterful refiners. They don't have the fastest hardware or the most feature rich software either. This goes all the way back to the 80s too.

I'm not entirely sure open mindedness is what was being questioned. But like so many things Plan, we will have to agree to disagree.

First off, I'm certainly not the arbitrator of opinion around here...and it's obvious that you applaud for whoever the hell so moves you. I just try to keep in mind that everyone of the MM's on the field from DCA to DCI march on their own dime. And more importantly, they perform what is written and designed for them. Therefore, (IMO) all of them deserve my recognition of their hard work...it's not much to ask of us, and in the end it's sort of their salary and keeps the activity interesting and supported. But when that recognition is used to send messages, i.e. "we're mad at your design staff", "we don't want the judges to score you so high", "we want someone else to win", "I don't get your show", "do what you used to do back in 19**", "I'm ###### at your Director", "fill in the blank".....it doesn't translate on to the field. So, do what you want, but I haven't seen a single show since my first in 2007 that I haven't felt the need to applaud for.

I remember the end of Phantom's Virtuoso show (audience on their feet when the guard broke out the whole color spectrum of silks)...telling my friend to prepare herself for Vanguard's "wake up" impact...new era chant...finally seeing The Cadets live!...watching my trumpet-playing friend's reaction to Glassmen's soloist...

Insinuating a lack of intelligence by arguing that some folks don't like a particular show because they just don't "get it" or haven't seen it enough times to appreciate all the intricacies and innuendos is a bit arrogant as well.

I'm all for change. I'm not for the snobbery we have over an activity that no one has heard of.

I believe Glassmen are switching to Kings this year.

I love me a good sock party.

Its called " change ". We learn to either go with the flow, or we just go.

Well hopefully it made you feel better, because 1,000 minuses won't change my opinion. I guess I'm not as much of a bandwagon fan as you are.

I can assure you they will sound like SCV.