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Personally, I never saw anything like that. Marching corps is HARD, hardest, most demanding, physically draining, mentally draining, emotionally draining thing I have EVER done. Not even boot camp half way compared to marching corps, in fact I remember thinking boot was almost a joke. You constantly chase perfection, so yes, you get yelled at, called out, singled out, do push ups, run, do track work, etc...but, it is to break you down, to get to the core, raw self of who you are, and then you are built back up into an intense monster performer who wants more. I don't know how the simple act of marching wouldn't be looked at to an outsider as abuse. We did track work in Virginia, and when we finished, the pit arrived and when a girl in the pit saw the look on our faces, the intensity, she literally starting crying. You're gonna get yelled at, and if you are sticking out, you're gonna get yelled at more, if you're bringing up the rear, yep, getting scalded, constantly make the same mistake, more trouble. But it's not abuse, it's what is required to achieve the amazing results we see on the field...again, my personal experience. It's not abuse, it's being forged into steel. And I'll add this...yes it was hard. But it was the single most rewarding thing I have ever done. I KNEW if I could get through that there is not a thing in this world I can't do, and I carry that with me today, at 43, I still have those lessons. And anything that is a life changer shouldn't be easy to attain. I am forever grateful and what I did and what I learned. Last thing I'll say on this...it's also why your kid isn't paying attention to what a third party judge thinks of the show or where they are ranked. It's not about that. It's about being the best you can be, and learning what it takes to be perfect, understanding that the only thing that matters is those who are right there with you day in and day out, busting their arse in the ultimate pursuit of perfection...I see so many parents/fans complaining about why they aren't scoring higher. Marching corps is a personal journey, it is NOT about some dude in a green shirt running around the field talking into a recorder. Yes, that matters, but don't march a drum corps if you want outside gratification. You will absolutely hate it if that is your motivation.

The Academy was treated to a post show meal of Popeye's Chicken. The parents of two of our members own the franchises for the Little Rock area.

This sentiment is understandable. But you need to know that those that find war the most obscene are normally those of us that were in it. But Madison's show is not about war, war is only a backdrop to the real story......the brotherhood and survival. War cuts through the ######## in ways you can't imagine and you are left with the "most real" anything gets in your life. Their is a bond that is built in that atmosphere that is unexplainable..undeniable..powerful........it is searing and lifelong. And Madison has captured that story amazingly. It is so important and so personal it is difficult to discuss....and that's why so many warriors don't. I am indebted to Mr. Mason and his Scouts for telling that story for us....in a tasteful, respectful and honorable way. One other note about removing the fallen from the battlefield.......that is a promise and a creed between warriors that will not be explained here. Concerning your rationale about drum corps as an escape from reality (not a criticism but a question you should ask yourself).....if Madison 2013 exposes you to things you do not wish to know or see....what did Phantom Regiment 2008 do for you? Different millennium....same soldiers....same brotherhood......(BTW.....I loved it, even though it beat my favorite).

I might be politically incorrect for saying this but as an educator and parent, I think we coddle our kids way too much these days and I'm thankful that there are institutions like drum corps that teach kids that they didn't all hang the moon. Life is tough and we can't save our kids from that fact. Drum corps does a nice job of introducing a kid to handling that toughness. If a staff person sometimes gets cross, that too is life. I am not condoning physical abuse or expletive name-calling kind of stuff, but to be called out and told to do better... that is striving for excellence... and character building.

I'll post a full review of everybody tomorrow, but from my viewpoint, Cadets just flat out beat Crown tonight by being the better drum corps. No conspiracies, off nights, or any other rationale except tonight in Ocean Springs, MS, Cadets deserved & earned their win. *Edited for phone autocorrect

Ex-retired military guy here and I didn't find Madison's show offensive. Quite honestly, I preferred them carrying the "deceased" off the field. I did wonder how long they were going to leave the first "dead" soldier on the field though - to the point I was getting upset that they were just going to leave him there and march over him. They didn't, and I quickly calmed myself and appreciated the "tribute" to the fallen men.

Seems like every time Crown loses recently, they're having an "off night". As though some find it impossible to believe another corps might just have outperformed them. This early season success seems to have lead some to believe that Crown HAS to win championships.

Do Waffles qualify as PED'S?

Boston beats both of them !

18 hours and nobody is dropping corps names or committing slander against named staff members. Is everyone feeling ok today? A day of rest or something?

Lineup and cost for the show in Texas that you are complaining about : S.C. Vanguard Bluecoats Blue Knights Crossmen Academy Jersey Surf........... customer cost for 6 DCI Corps, $ $30-$50 Lineup for Lawrence, Ma. show, August 1st Boston Crusaders Madison Scouts Cadets Crossmen...............customer cost for 4 DCI Corps $30-$40 I'd say its pretty comparable in overall value, and nobody is complaining in Massachusetts. Also, the state of Texas this summer will have 5 DCI shows, one a Regional with every Corps present. The state of New York by contrast will have just 2 DCI shows. One of the NY DCI shows will have just one... one... DCI Finalist Corps from 2012 in that NY show. The other show in Buffalo is a TOC show. I think overall the State of Texas is doing quite well for what DCI fans in Texas can see in both shows as well as the number of Corps that they will get to see live. They get to see pretty much the full lineup of DCI World Class Division Corps live this summer, and have for a few years now. So I'm really not getting your complaining.

I say it'll be interesting. but man if it does happen, won't that screw up the TOC ads even more?

I don't think anyone has a problem with people not liking voice over. I personally think it is usually done poorly (though I think corps are doing it better than ever and I like it in Crown's show this year and BD's show last year). What I don't think makes a lot of sense is to pretend like the voice elements are somehow distinct and separate elements that are laid on top of the music. Saying you wish you could hear it without the voice to decide what you like better is like saying you would prefer to hear SCV's show without any mellos playing to decide what you like better. But no one would ever say anything like that about the mellos. The voice is part of the music and I think you either take it or leave it. Mahler's 2nd Symphony would not be the same piece of music without the chorus. The same is true of EOTB. I realize the instrumental piece Crown is playing in the ballad is not part of EOTB, but the narration is still part of the musical design of the show and the show would not be what it is without the narration. That may not work for some, but I don't think we get to pick and choose what elements of a composition should stay or go. I'm not expressing myself very well. I'm guessing that made no sense at all. Hopefully you get the gist though.

What cracks me up is that someone could call Crown's drumline - or any other DCI world class drumline "2nd tier". Yes - a couple of lines stick out this year (SCV, Cadets) but none of them are remotely "2nd tier". That is all...

Blue Devils

Is this what you want?

Beats me. I like both shows a great deal (and Cadets too, in fact).

OK, I'm going to sound like a homer, but this is BAC's time of year. If they have any tribal memory of their storied existence, from now to Boston (Lawrence anyway) and DCI East (which is practically a home show for BAC, Cadets, and perhaps Crossmen - how weird is that?) I could see them roaring through the rest of this season picking up not 1, not 2, but 3 points per night, ending up way over 100... But seriously, this is the time of year that separates the great from the near great. I'm making a guess based on sentiment and historical perspective that BAC will finish great. The corps is, after all, made of GIANTS.

I could see that happening. Boston has the best show of the 3 - and the better hornline. I don't think any of that group catches the Scouts this year but I've been wrong before.

He was hoping to see dauphins?.. .

And once again, the real world proves that it is much more accepting, humble, forgiving, and just plan nicer than our little DCP world. Usually because folks realize that whatever their disagreements, their passion for this whole "band thing" overrides any differences or problems they may have....

Einstein tried to do it.....on the beach! :ph34r:/>

I can appreciate all the comments about "drum corps made me tougher," and "it's about preparing for life" and all. And I agree with those sentiments 100%. Nobody promised it would be easy, and every single member has to go through that point where they must decide if this is really what they want and if they are willing to put themselves through the pain and sweat and stress. It's an amazing activity and there is much to be gained from participating in it, for sure. But there is a line. I've seen it (thankfully not too often), and quite frankly it sickens me because it brings out the absolute worst in people who have been charged with bringing out the BEST in their students. The most notable were: - willfully denying water to the members to "prove a point," and actually making them dump their water out onto the ground - NOT ACCEPTABLE - willfully denying food to the members, making them instead rehearse through an entire meal break - NOT ACCEPTABLE - subjecting an individual whom they think is a drain on the ensemble to excessive corporal punishment (pushups, laps, etc) in order to make that member quit, thereby ridding themselves of the "problem." I'm not talking a few laps here and there, but running laps for an entire rehearsal block, just so the kid would get fed up and quit. Which he finally did, and the instructor was quite pleased with himself. - NOT ACCEPTABLE There are simply cases of BAD teaching in drum corps. It's akin (in a way) to the Mike Rice Rutgers situations. If you really need to get right in some kid's grill and scream at them, call them names, belittle them to that degree, then I'm sorry but that's not effective any way you slice it. It says more, in my opinion, about the instructor's shortcomings as a teacher than anything the kids may be doing wrong. (I won't officially include this last one, and it might not seem like a big deal to some, but it has always bothered me when instructors continually punish a section for the mistakes of an individual in that section. There is fine line here as well, but there are times when the intent is to personally make that kid's life miserable, even bordering on working to get the section to gang up on that one kid. If anything, I think it should work the other way around, get the section to HELP that kid so that these things don't happen anymore. Instead, what's created is unnecessary tension, mistrust, resentment, and negativity. In an ultimate team activity like drum corps, I don't think those qualities are things that should be fostered. Again, there are times when I can see this being effective if it's an isolated incident of someone being forgetful, but when it's a repeated thing due to a member's shortcomings of talent as opposed to those around him or her, and the intent is to get the section to make life worse for that member, I just don't agree with it. I know others will disagree.)

Cadets have some more changes this week and then going to get Cadet clean. And that's real clean..

SCV - That opening statement just gets me hyped from the start of the show, and it feels like a classic drum corps show with modern drill design. Troopers - From start to finish, this show holds my attention better than most shows from any corps for the past few years. Not to mention, they are selling that sunburst moment like crazy. Madison - The opener and closer are great, but the middle feels flat to me. Maybe the middle just isn't as strong emotionally for me, but man do they bring it when it counts. Blue Devils - I just really like this show; it feels like the 'successor' to 2010. However, what I REALLY like is when they have those jazzy moments and let the hornline shine with that melty butter texture that they get. Crown - I really like the opener, and the brass is almost as incredible as last year (some say better, but I find last year's to just be another level of good). Also, if they lost the narration in the ballad, it would be the greatest moment of the year, period. My biggest complaint is that the battery seems left out or an afterthought at times. Cadets - That percussion is amazing from the battery to those epic Moyer front ensemble arrangements (fun fact, the front ensemble aged out 10 of 15 members last year). The brass is also a contender for best brass this year. They have my favorite ending of the year so far. Spirit - I like the show, but I feel like a big Sweet Georgia Brown park and bark at the end is just missing. Perhaps they are saving it for a later date? I sure hope so because this show is unique compared to most all others with its musical style. Crossmen - Musically, I love this show. Visually, it does nothing. It will definitely be one of the most played audio recordings by me. Bluecoats - I love the moments where the hornline is allowed to show off their chops. I only wish there were more of these moments throughout the show; it feels somehow shorter than other shows around it. Phantom - There are no real single parts I love, but as a whole, the show is quite incredible. It seems like their hornline is a bit weaker as far as balance this year, but if they can improve just a bit more, I think this show will be a favorite of many come finals.

Having the highest score?

My post wasn't solely in response to yours. Others have opined that Crown's had an off night when things don't turn out as hoped. And scores don't automatically go up each show.

I can't believe people are actually offended by this...

Or maybe, JUST maybe, people think other shows are better. It's amazing how not gushing over BD's show makes everyone a hater. Kind of a bad thing about this website, that word "haters"

Da Clinton Invitational I hear the former POTUS will be playing tenor sax during tonight's encore with the Cavaliers. Listed in reverse order of performance: Bluecoats - Canton, OH The Cavaliers - Rosemont, IL Boston Crusaders - Boston, MA Crossmen - San Antonio, TX Blue Knights - Denver, CO The Academy - Tempe, AZ Pacific Crest - Diamond Bar, CA Genesis - Edinburg, TX BLUE HAH

And become the only member of the 91+ club.

And be leading the pack

Then it's time for KNIGHT KNIGHTS!!!

...cool, man. When next I see it, this context will come into play, for sure. Here's to us...!

I am perhaps considered (around DCP) the "BD Honkus Aurelius"....and I love Crown and have since 2007. They are not mutually exclusive...and this year particularly they're more similar then ever. And.......they like each other...and shared some great times on the west coast tour this year...... So, there's nothing to see here........move along.

it was your fan club. still mad about the political forums LOL

I would say SCV would snag it

I would even go as far as to say...that if there was still a "Disney Spirit Award" given...Madison Scouts would get it this year........hands down!!

is BD's guard being overscored based on previous reputation? I have now witnessed them five times in person and wonder where the judges are fixated. BD is dropping as many times as Cadets (and I am not referring to the planned drops.) They are segmenting the guard for several of the impacts rather than a full guard impact. Their use of non-traditional equipment is perhaps a bit more stylistic than Cadets, but this is a subjective matter of taste in the judge's perspective and not an objective matter that instructors can quantitatively clean consistently practice to practice. It is a matter to ponder.

Another absurd comparison to popular entertainment. DCI is not and never will be U2, regardless of what the shows look like. There is no evidence, other than base assertions from people like you, that show design has anything to do with decreased attendence (if said decreased attendance even exists in the first place). There are dozens of different theories I can come up with to explain decreased attendance that have absolutely nothing to do with show design. Quit pretending like DCI has ever been, or ever will be, a financial juggernaut popular to the masses. It will never happen, and that is alright. The last thing we should be doing is dumbing things down in the futile attempt to attract mass audiences that could not give a crap about drum corps, regardless of design. DCI audiences have always been, and will always be, largely made up of DCI alumni, their families, and high school band members taken to shows by their directors. I am one of the few that has come to the activity without having any real exposure to it until my mid-20s (and even then I was in high school marching band and was at least aware of DCI in high school). The idea that DCI can expand its audience by any large measure if it will just play more show tunes and pops is silly. Drum corps audiences are shrinking (assuming that bald assertion is even true) because there are less and less alumni (fewer corps), busier high school students, easy access to shows via the fan network (making it less important to attend multiple live shows), unjustified increases in ticket prices, DCI's misguided efforts to prevent any exposure outside fan network subscribers, and a bad decision to lock up the championships in a bad venue. None of that has anything to do with show design.

Just my 2 cents: 1. I wouldn't classify marching band or drum and bugle corps as abuse. There are situations that can be abusive, but only if handled poorly. 2. The stretching, running, warm-ups, and other physical tools used are there to help members better prepare, perform, and gain control of their physical/musical responsibilities. 3. When a student has been singled out there is a tendency to refer to that as abuse; but in truth this can be done in a positive way while still assessing what needs fixed in a critical but careful way. 4. Parents expect most teachers to take a kid aside if something is wrong. This model, however, doesn't work in large ensemble situations. Comments must be made to sections and individuals during practice in order to correct problems in a timely manner. You can't run a 3 hour rehearsal block, say nothing or just throw out positive comments in a general sense, and then take the next 5 hours to spend 5 minutes with each of your 60 brass players in private. Just doesn't work this way. 5. Even when marching members have been made to do pushups or run laps due to a mistake, in most cases this is done in a positive way and I'd hardly call "getting yourself in shape" a bad thing. Ultimately, drum corps and marching band can be positives for a person's health, well-being, and their musicianship. We can teach great literature, visual art, musical performance, teamwork, leadership, and responsibility skills to anyone who takes part. Kids get to travel, see new places, interact with new faces, experience hard work and competition, and they can develop independence away from home. 6. In all my years of teaching and of watching other organizations in the greater marching activity, the most abuse I have seen comes from hazing. This is the real danger. Hazing from within the corps or band. Initiations gone bad and the like. If we're talking abuse, then typically this is where you'd find it. This is not to say that some "crazy" band director/instructor doesn't, from time to time, work the kids too hard or too long in the sun...or things of that nature. That, too, can be abuse.

RRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR RRRRUMBLINGS. CONGRATS CADETS FOR YOUR WIN TONIGHT. That ISN'T all.

Can I vote C for both options?

That doesn't make what U2 does a good thing though. Just because something is popular, doesn't make it good. (cough, cough, Beiber, cough). A lot of movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars are awful, but people still go to them. Should we really start appealing to the lowest common denominator, or should DCI present fans with a choice in shows that they can watch? I have a few hundred channels on my TV. Some are mindless cartoons, some are thought-provoking documentaries. I have the ability and free choice to choose to watch whatever I want, I'm not being forced to just watch one thing over the other. Same with DCI shows. Not everyone is doing a high-end intellectual show, some are going for more base appeal, (SCV, Surf, Colts, Troopers, Spirt) that it is still fun for the fan who just wants to be entertained.

I would venture you are wrong...I have been attending shows since the EARLY 70's Have you seen any shows this year LIVE? Actually that's kinda true, I have the summer off to follow drum corps among some other interests. I was hoping the ten minutes or so I spent would help me understand why you are being so constantly negative. I was going to pass my hard work along in the form of cut and paste, but decided that was not so respectful. I spent ten minutes...I get your opinion. I haven't ignored your opinion, I just wonder what your motive is? I get you don't like the show and the staff's decisions. I get you have a problem with DF. I don't understand what benefit you gain in complaining about something in virtually every post you make. It's like somebody who doesn't like spinach that keeps eating it and complaining about it. If I like spinach, you are just an irritation. Perhaps you are just hoping for others to start not liking it as much as you? My intention is not to pick a fight, but I am not intimidated by that statement. I also don't think I am alone in my opinion about the direction you steer this thread. It seems like anytime someone has something nice to say about the corps, you have to chime in with a preachy criticism. I was actually waiting for a snarky reply to the complimentary post of the trumpet soloist. That is not why I come here. I appreciate having a place to discuss the activity, and our shared passion for it. I also find some strange desire to understand things I don't agree with. Perhaps you can tell me what benefit there is to your constant negativity. I will be happy to listen, as I obviously don't have "anything to do"

1970 VFW prelims on the turf mid afternoon in black WOOL uniforms was considered par for the course. Today it would be abuse

OK, I didn't read the various posts - my head would explode - but did we seriously just write 41 pages because George said unflattering things about facilities for Cadets? Every drum corps needs an advocate making sure their facilities are what they need. Some show sponsors will give you a parking lot, a vacant lot you can line - honest to god Boston was assigned to a field that contained a cemetery within the footprint of our practice field. if anyone had printed what I said to that show sponsor there would have been more response than what George got. I haven't always agreed with George. I fought what became the Big 7 way back in 1995 at a Boston DCI enclave. But c'mon. How many directors have done for their corps what he has done for Cadets? If they don't like him in Mississippi, I don't see him losing any sleep over it. I know after 1993 DCI I'm never going back there. Suck it up - he's a band director, not Prime Minister of Bratslaska or somewhere with a nuke. The activity will go on quite nicely without the Cadets going south, and the Cadets will go on quite nicely without going through Mississippi. 42 pages? Really?

Thom Hannum's beats are INCREDIBLY detailed and difficult, which means if you can't hang with the technique, you can't play the music. Percussion is a very visual section, so if you drop out or just plain look different, you're boned. What's happening to Crown now is they've got a tough book, coupled with a tough show and a relatively new group of students (to Hannum's world), which is NOT a winning combination. Also add to that the pit, whose book, technique and tone quality is far below the brass's (obviously), but also below the level of other groups. They need an overhaul in the whole percussion section, not just one half at a time.

That may not be a staff issue. It does no good to spend half the rehearsal breathing and attacking a concert F and then have half your hornline decided not to return for the next rehearsal. The point I am trying to make is that sometimes the students are not ready for that level of expectation. I am not going to blame the staff because I do not know the situation.

Care for me to post the scores for the past two years shows? BTW... I never said I dislike Crown. It's quite the opposite. I was just saying that every corps designs a certain way and has a system of smoke and mirrors. Concert Bb and Crown go hand in hand.