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Showing content with the highest reputation on 01/08/2016 in all areas

  1. The "best" that can be done is to keep the kids home. Cancel DCI. If the only acceptable standard is to make the "best" effort possible to make sure bad stuff "never happens" ("never" is a very strong word, but that's the one you used), then the only option is to eliminate any chance of anything bad ever happening by abstaining from the activity entirely. If you're unwilling to accept the occasional misfortune, then you should never get out of bed. There is reasonable precaution, and there is negligence. DCI already has plenty of reasonable precautions in place. These judges are trained. They learn the shows throughout the season, so as to better acquaint themselves with the corps' movements. Shows are scrubbed when there is lightning in the area. George Hopkins paints the lines on the field himself . The corps board members and staff that I know take the kids' safety and well-being very seriously, in all areas of the operation, from camps to food to travel to the field. More kids get hurt by falling rifles, unseen gopher holes, sunburn, bee stings, slips on the bus steps, swinging flag poles, untied shoe laces, bass drum No. 5, slips in the shower, and tumbles off the podium than they do by collisions with judges. For that matter, modern drum-corps drill itself is a bigger menace to the members' knees and ankles than is any wayward judge. More to the point, the kids themselves want the most rigorous, thorough evaluation they can get. I know that during my marching days, one of the attractions of the activity was the, yes, on-field judging we would get. I wanted to be part of something that held itself to the highest standard. I daresay the kids in today's DCI do, too. Life has risks. The "best" you can do is manage them reasonably, and as far as I can see, DCI does.
    5 points
  2. The difference that Stanford's band was just stupid....the NI incident was deliberate.
    5 points
  3. It is not that simple. For one thing, many aspects of the performance are ordinarily noticeable from a distance, but not if you put 20,000 people between yourself and the corps. Of course, some things are not as easily perceived from far away, as clarity of sound dissipates over distance. Judging from the sideline is no picnic, especially nowadays with those pit speakers in your face. Frankly, I am surprised anyone is questioning whether field access is necessary for best assessment of a percussion battery. Think about it. Under current rules, drum judges can go wherever they choose... and they choose to spend much of their time on the field, tracking the battery in the drill. Why would they do that if they could evaluate just as well from the sideline, or the stands?
    5 points
  4. On those infrequent occasions when I do notice a field judge on the field, it affirms my knowledge that this is the big leagues. As a member, part of the allure of drum corps is the expectation that you will be evaluated, closely and critically, by the best in the business. I believe that "bring it on" attitude is essential to achieving excellence. The judges learn the shows. They know when to move. They are barely noticeable. Keep 'em on the field. I try to keep the member's perspective in this. They're the ones paying the tuition. This activity exists for them. "Getting the score right" by the crowd comes in second place to providing the members the most thorough and accurate evaluation possible. As was mentioned earlier: Getting a crescendoed buzz roll right is dam*ed important to the players in the line, even if it is difficulty for difficulty's sake and the crowd can't really discern what's happening out there in the middle of the line behind the trumpets. The whole reason why a kid is busting his or her butt in the snare line in the first place is to perform high-level stuff, finely grained stuff, that only a few percussionists ever will achieve. Maybe only she and her 8 buddies in the line will ever know they nailed that buzz roll. Those are the only people who have to know. They need a judge standing right in front of them to find out if they nailed it. And if they execute a seemingly pointlessly difficult passage while another line fails at the same attempt, they darn sure want to be ranked above their competitor with regard to that particular element of their performance.
    4 points
  5. there is a far greater chance of injury like we saw with Crown 2010 that had nothing to do with a judge. In fact the drum judge that night.,...Allan again maybe??...ran to help the kid. to date, I have yet to ever hear of one injury to a performer because of an interaction with a field judge. I know of a couple judges, drumc orps or band that got whacked. kids are far more likely to be hurt rehearsing on parking lots or ###### fields than they are by a judge.
    4 points
  6. and i'm staying neutral on that. Personally I think the entire activity has an addiction to Dr Beat that is unhealthy
    4 points
  7. The Game incident was more because they were too dumb to realize the play was still in progress than anything else.
    4 points
  8. Cal Football Player: "Hey, man...I'm really, really sorry. And sorry about your horn." Stanford Band Member: "Hey, thanks. And no problem...let it slide."
    4 points
  9. Hmm. Reading this concerns me. I'm not doing this in an angry way, but this is a teachable moment kind of thing. Comments like these are the kind of from the top of the tower high-handed arrogant kind of attitude that Stanford thrives on making fun of and mocking the bejeezus out of, and for this very reason. They're Dadaist. Likely not consciously, but they are. They're a marching band version of Marcel Duchamp taking a urinal, turning it on it's side and presenting it at an art exhibit as "The Fountain". They're trying to deliberately provoke folks who are too stuffy. I'm not saying anyone has to like it, enjoy it, appreciate it.... but to go overboard on the outrage, well, that's a symbol of the times. No need to ban-hammer these guys. Just shake your head and move on. There have been some pretty outrageous things in corps shows in the past in DCA and DCI- I can list a few. What happened is that in those cases, things got dealt with and the shows had changes made. Mainly because their scores weren't where the corps wanted them to be. Competition has some positive effects. I think Fawber remembers the DCA show (corps will not be named) that did the music from "Patton" and formed a swastika when the music from the German attack was played. That's a bit before my time. I was told there was a lot of outrage on that one... Same corps whipped Jesus on the 50 in 1979. Also held him at gunpoint. Still remember heckling a DCI corps in the late 80's at East prelims where the color guard paired up and the men laid down on top of the women in an obvious sexual pose. At best second base and sliding into 3rd. That got changed for finals weekend. So, stuff happens like this, it's happened over the history of the activity, Drum corps is not immune or better then this.... When it happens-- just do the Mystery Science Theater thing, heckle the heck out of it and laugh at it! As the MST3K theme song says.... "Repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax!" Have stuff to do- but please folks, don't stand from the high hill and proclaim on this one. Now the issues they had with force feeding booze.. yes, I think the University should have punished them and did appropriately. On that tack, and Fawber will agree, We never had to force anyone at Westshore to drink till they barfed, that was all voluntarily. We didn't have a Euphonium player known as "Chunks" for nothing....
    3 points
  10. It's a good question that has been discussed a lot already in other threads, so if you want to explore the idea and don't get many responses (you may, anyway), look deeper down the thread list, such as at the ones dealing with 2015 CDs, videos, etc. But briefly, a couple of reasons why you don't see that as a rule proposal despite recent problems, are that: 1. Keep in mind, unlike many similar organizations, DCI is the corps (plural), and the DCI board and the folks in charge of rules votes are the corps directors--they're in charge, not some group of administrators running the circuit. And the corps directors like the artistic freedom of not being restricted in material. One key reason for this is that there has been some indication that ticket and ancillary revenue related to shows dwarfs what they earn from media sales. So they may well be smarter to be more concerned with live shows than Blu-Ray sales. 2. Sometimes when sync rights (video with music) are obtained, and these can take a full year to get (lots of lead time), the copyright holder retains the right to yank them away later, as when they sell the tune to a major corporation for advertising. You want sync rights, you have to agree. So there have been instances where DCI had the rights before the summer but lost them before the videos went out.
    3 points
  11. Look, you're getting upset about something really silly. You did, in fact, use the word "criminal" to describe what you felt to be the inaction of DCI in preventing what you perceive to be inevitable injury. I repurposed that word to poke a hole in your logic, suggesting that by your logic the entire activity could be described as "criminal" since you're more likely to be injured in rehearsal, than by a judge at a show. I get it. You don't like that I did that. Doesn't change the fact that "criminal" is your word. You can get upset, and bluster all you want. Doesn't change the facts. Its just band. Lighten up Francis.
    3 points
  12. can we get a count on injuries cause by judges? I'll even accept anecdotes. but it seems more like a boogie-man to me. here's the perspective I haven't seen raised yet: instructive. a judge isn't going to be able to tell the line how to get better if he can't see them. I sure laughed off my share of drumjudge tapes, but the Good Judges has very useful things to say and I'm glad they had the chance to contribute them. and the 'freedom of artistic expression crowd,' well this is going to seriously limit the drill on any corps that actually wants to showcase its line and be rewarded. drill during a drum feature will have to be incredibly limited. if you want to unweight the presence of technical drumming on the scores, that's one thing. but as long as it's a part of the competition, let's not pretend there's any better way of evaluating it. unless you think the best idea is for the drum judge to meet up with each line post-performance, where the battery will then perform their show notes again at standstill for his consideration. That way each line can make sure they do their dancing and body movement right during the show, then play the notes right for the judge in the 2nd eval. Total Coverage! here I am, giving away great ideas for free...
    3 points
  13. Does it really keep people safe though? How many injuries have we seen through the years due to a judge being on the field? What percentage of injuries in a drum corps season can be attributed to it? I think the real truth of the conversation is: Either you like #7 because you don't want to see anything other than a performer on the field, or you dislike #7 because it prevents captions from being judged properly.
    3 points
  14. I am shocked the Stanford Band is banned from traveling to away games for one year. They should be banned from ALL games, permanently or until such time a professional band director is placed in charge. The Stanford band is totally classless and serves no purpose except to embarrass the marching community. All marching members from HS bands, to college bands, to drum and bugle corps are marked when this travesty of a marching program does, well, virtually anything. Tear it down and start over. Or just give the program the death penalty like they do football programs that cannot be redeemed. Either way, marching band and drum corps members and their fans win. Give the extra time on the field at halftime to classy bands, like Iowa.
    3 points
  15. Oh Pleeeeese. Lets have some proper perspective here, ok ? A quick google search shows that no less than 14 Band Directors in the US in the last year and a half alone were removed from their positions after being arrested and charged with sex and/or drug felonies ranging from inappropriate sexual communications with frosh boys all the way to rapes of females, cocaine possession. The Stanford Marching band shenanighans does not come remotely close to the " embarrassment " that all these shocking numbers of arrests of Band Directors is having with the public with the marching community. 14 Band Directors is WAY more than one would expect, and we can just imagine the numbers of Band Directors out there that havn't been caught yet. The Stanford Marching Band's marching style of campy schtick should be the least concern in the marching community, when we are witnessing these shocking numbers arrests of Band Directors of late and which regrettably seem to be occuring in the US on almost a monthly basis now.
    2 points
  16. 2 points
  17. I read through the thread before hearing Dan Potter's discussion of the proposals with Michael Cesario on DCI's FieldPass and then re-read thread after hearing and before I posted. I suspect that some of the posters did not listen to the twenty minute discussion first. I am amazed that there has been no mention in the thread of several statements Cesario makes as conclusions: -Task Force has terminated the discussion of woodwinds in DCI shows: "No Big Piccolos...." (Will some DCPers be hosting a celebratory banquet???) -Possible Non-DCI Judging commentaries w/o any scoring at perhaps San Antonio Regional to be given by Hall of Fame level guests such as college band directors, celebrity, etc. These would be available to the judging community and to each corps before changes are written for Finals. [Although not specified. I am presuming that this would be done with a parallel panel of judges giving the usual scoring and tapes.] -Discussion of whether to do away with Recaps. (What will DCPers do?) or do away with them during "First Tour:" Do Recaps prescript scoring (slotting)??? Will half point scoring help (0.5)???
    2 points
  18. First, they are your words. I simply applied them to a related context. Second, the NFL changed their rules due to an epidemic of injuries related to the rules they changed. There is no such epidemic in DCI, and while there is a potential danger for injury, the facts don't support any significant chance of injury. Odds don't increase over time. Third, you're incorrect in suggesting that extra people on the field is a variable that members don't have to deal with in rehearsal. Have you ever watched a drum corps rehearsal? The staff is all over the field, and there are far more of them than there are judges. While staff do have the advantage of knowing the show, there are always new staff coming on and off tour, and field judges do quite a lot of research to know where to be. Members are used to seeing individuals in their drill that aren't supposed to be there. Again, all drum corps related injuries are preventable. However, you're more likely to be injured in visual block in the morning than you are in a judge related incident on the performance field. While you do not agree that there is a need for judges on the field, there is a significant percentage of those involved in the activity who believe that there is.
    2 points
  19. Then the entire activity is (in your words) criminal. More injuries occur from simply attempting to do our activity properly than ever occur from a judge on the field. Lets prevent all of the injuries and just cancel the season.
    2 points
  20. There was a huge thread about perc. Field judges last summer. My vote: keep them in front of the drumline so that they can properly evaluate the battery percussion.
    2 points
  21. Although field judges can be an on-the-field eyesore, they do sometimes provide bumper-car intrigue. Besides, sometimes they serve as snare drum picker-uppers and other things that could be occupational hazards. Without field judging by a drum judge, I think you may eventually see an impact in the drill design for the battery. Corps with outstanding musicianship would want to highlight their abilities, whiles others may be carefully masked within the field design. You just can't hear the dirt as well unless you're right in the middle of the sound.
    2 points
  22. While I can't speak for music (although I do think it's partly the same?) there is only so much information that the judge can take from the sidelines. The only way to really see how the members are truly performing, both individually, and person to person is to jump in there and get your hands dirty. This is as good of an idea as expecting all NFL referees to be on the sideline. This will make the judges opinions even more subjective to go in the way of certain corps.... Are DCI judges really that distracting to people? I feel like I barely notice them because I'm concentrating on the show/members.
    2 points
  23. Isn't that Prosperie? It was like a ballet. He knew exactly where to be to read the tough spots and not get killed or be in the way - a masterful performance by a highly-trained judge. His reward - OUR reward - was his desire and work to get to know the show to make sure. To my eye, he was a masterful dodger who knew where he needed to be but reacted to get there. Highly skilled, yelling into the tape "GREAT JOB" at the ONE, single moment that the line needed to know they nailed it... Let them be judges. I surely don't want to speak for him, but I'd bet Jeff Prosperie would hate to have to judge from the sidelines. WVU80 and I have disagreed on this before, and I repeat what others here now say as well: Where's the evidence that this is a problem that needs fixed? In the face of such evidence of opinion among drummers, about drummers, and the lack of evidence of a disaster ("criminal" or otherwise) caused by field percussion judges, your guarantee of perfection in avoiding serious accidents is only delivering what we already have. Leaving it as it is = no accidents and great drum reads (<--- My way) Doing it your way = no accidents and crappy drum reads My way is better. I know you will find this hard to believe, but having a "little" accident once in a great while is worth having to get a great drumline read from the field judge. We can each define "little", but I'm thinking an occasional sprained ankle or busted lip. Yup. I'd take that.
    1 point
  24. Not only that, but the judge did his homework and seemingly had a good understanding of the corps' drill (not just battery) in order to maneuver in & out of forms in order to get up close & personal enough to get a good read of the drum line, while also not interfering with members' performance. Well-trained judges w/experience are rarely a problem
    1 point
  25. As usual with Phantom it doesn't matter what parts, positions, or staff get's moved in or out. Instability promotes instability. At the end of the day are they able to act as a cohesive unit that can compete at DCI's highest levels...1-2-3 top spots. AND...will the unit be allowed to act as one with a unified vision or will the powers that be stifle creativity and a true competitive spirit?
    1 point
  26. Crucial detail. As a percussionist who has been on the front sideline for many marching band shows in LoS and has sat front row for drum corps in LoS, drum judges will not get a read on battery in there excepting a wholesale change in percussion drill approach. Granted, that is just LoS. I can't vouch for all of the indoor venues. But it also happens to be the entirety of finals week.
    1 point
  27. provide evidence of an instance where a judge caused injury to a kid. I've provided 2 instances where a judge HELPED prevent injuries or further injury from happening
    1 point
  28. You could try and make the corps provide the material they are using. (with lots of lead time. And force them to not make any mid-season changes ) But DCI is the organization that needs the obtain the right to synch, etc. Corps just need the right to arrange and perform. Let's say I specialize right now in arranging Backstreet Boys songs for my Ukulele Orchestras. And I get the rights to arrange for the entire Backstreet Boys catalog. Then you say you want to make recordings of my ensemble playing these Backstreet Boys songs and sell CD's, MP3, vinyl, etc. It would do no good for me to have the synch and related rights. You would need to have those rights.
    1 point
  29. Well, maybe the media types read DCP too. http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/01/07/rose-bowl-officially-frowns-on-stanford-bands-halftime-performance/?cid=eref:nbcnews:text
    1 point
  30. I disagree with you on this. Considerations for good field judging are more complex than what you present. Since so many visual designs are masked to the front viewing, the wisdom of the judges not being confined to the front has been that the judge can credit the drill for true excellence or its absence to how the visual is fully being performed, not merely what is viewed from the front or what the design team wants you to see. Many old timers who judged visual would hold the most authentic view of what is actually happening is from the back corners. Perhaps a compromise in today's safety conscious world with such complex visual programs would be to allow the field judges to roam the boundaries on all four sides but not enter the field. If they are confined to the front viewing and given the number of corps that use "judge blockers" to hide guard and equipment changes plus the barricade of the Front Ensemble, the better view might be from the proximate box upstairs, a point MingusMonk has already raised in this thread. If my memory serves me, this has already been voted down twice in previous rule congress votes and did not get out of the captions in another. However, it is the practice in at least one large high school marching band circuit with drum corps affiliations; there it has mixed results. The judging administrator likes it, but the directors and instructors have mixed reviews for adequate perception. DCI level competition and evaluation presumes more than minimal standards according to our history.
    1 point
  31. I figure that Stanford doesn't agree with you. Or the band would've been gone years ago.
    1 point
  32. Great video. I watched the judge only because I was drawn to watching him because of the your post. For the most part, unless you really want to follow them, judges stay pretty obscure from the show. As long as the production is a competitive one, I don't know how you can judge percussion without being close to the action. Perhaps there is a remote-electronic measurement device that could be used if developed in the future. But until we get there, I think you need to keep a judge on the field.
    1 point
  33. My favorite percussion judge 'run for your life' video is from Cadets 2008 'Vesuvius and Apollo Unleashed.' https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVLN_3CFNEo
    1 point
  34. Here's how I envision the music caption: 2 brass judges (one on the front sideline, one in the box) 2 percussion judges (one on the field judging the battery, one on the front sideline judging the pit) 1 music analysis judge (that's all there needs to be)
    1 point
  35. When scores between one drumline and another can be measured in (half) tenths, yes.
    1 point
  36. The one suggestion that most resonates with me is the allowing of 1/2 tenths for the captions. Doing so lessens the impact of "slotting". I hope this one passes.
    1 point
  37. 1 point
  38. Right with you, HH. In my days at college, our version was for every brass and percussion major to haul stands, timpani, tam-tams, and bass drums to a low roof on the music building...and greet sunrise with "Fanfare for The Common Man." Never heard such language screamed out of windows at a Christian college.... Worked especially well on Saturday and Sunday mornings.
    1 point
  39. My only issue with Stanford is they're not that funny. Want to see funny? Try halftime at Columbia. Sports Illustrated labeled Columbia's marching band "The Cleverest Band in the World." It's true (the SI part and the cleverest part). Whether it's the real deal (Columbia) or derivatives (Stanford), it's college humor and not at all the arrogance some would like to attribute. On the contrary, it is the definition of sophomoric. A good example is this video (warning: vulgar language/themes) from "Orgo Night" when for more than half a century the Columbia band disrupts studying at the library at midnight before each semester's organic chemistry final (the high anxiety night of the year). You'll get a fair sense for the irreverent humor. Take it or leave it. I'll take it. You'll see their fellow students do too. HH (proud former member of the Cleverest Band in the World)
    1 point
  40. Can't think of a better place to start the season. Always a fun weekend... for the corps and the fans!!!
    1 point
  41. I was born, raised, and currently still live in an area which can commonly be referred to as being "cow country." Though not being a farm boy in my youth, a large majority of my friends in my formative years were exactly that -- farm boys. I happened to watch yesterday's game with a number of my past and current friends -- many of which were either farm boys in their youth or currently farm as an occupation. Let me assure you -- there was no greater amount of laughter than that which came from those farm-associated mouths. They saw it for what it was...a gentle, harmless needling relating to an opponent. I would suggest that there very well could have been far more offensive and egregious things said on the field of play by some of the players than what was exhibited at halftime. But in a heavily sports-addicted society, things such as trash talking, posturing, taunting, and other forms of "unsportsmanlike" behavior on the parts of the athlete have not only become somewhat the norm, but socially accepted as well, all without broad-based societal outcries for the offenders to be "fired." Hypocrisy reigneth.
    1 point
  42. Eh I think people are making too big of a deal about it. Gotta have fun sometimes. Military style bands can get boring. I think of drum corps as a serious affair while college marching bands to be more of a fun thing.
    1 point
  43. 1 point
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