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About half an hour. There’s very little that gives me as much satisfaction on these boards as pointing out a claim bemoaning the current state of the activity as demonstrably false!

A) I absolutely proved the claim was demonstrably false. The claim was simply "Fire of Eternal Glory would not be given the time to develop as it did long, long ago." That was it. I put forward seven examples of ballads that were written to do just that from this season alone --- 3 of them in the top 5 --- so how would anyone have ground to stand on that FOEG wouldn't be given time to develop? B) I do understand what you're saying, queenanne, I really do. I've gone to war over this point a number of times on DCP forums, but "chop 'n' bop" arranging is largely a style of the late 00s/early 2010s that was 100% led by BD, experimented with for a few years by a number of other corps, and is now strictly limited to corps who don't realize that that trend has passed; i.e., Cavies' music books the last few seasons, and Phantom, with Blue Stars & Colts thrown in on occasion. Most corps have swung back to allowing their music book to let melodies fully develop, and don't use more than 3 - 5 pieces of source material in a show, which isn't particularly different than the 90s. Leading that trend is the Michael Klesch music books of Crown (don't forget, they were the "it" group with their full melodies during BD's reign of chop n bop), SCV, Bloo, and BK; all corps (well, not Crown at the moment) that have been putting out the shows that are viewed as "lit" by the Gen Zers coming up into the activity. I get the bemoaning of chop n bop, I really do, and I'm not faulting anyone for that....I'm a band director and a music arranger, and I want my students AND audiences to be hearing full melodies; my goal is never to create a new BD-esque tapestry of music woven together seamlessly from 10 different pieces of source material. I'm generally not thrilled by that either. My point is that outside of BD, that trend is largely passing --- it drives me nuts that both Cavies & Phantom seem to have locked onto that style as "current" when that is not AT ALL what judges & fans are by and large rewarding at the moment at any level of our activity. I'm beyond thrilled that Cavies are thriving for a lot of other reasons, great staff being the primary....but I truly believe a music book that gave it's source material time to be showcased properly would keep them even more competitive with the top, because that's what everyone at the top is doing besides BD (even BD let Natural Woman & Everything Must Change sparkle for a gloriously long amount of time, although I wouldn't call either arrangement particularly true to the original --- either way, they spent much more time letting their ballads develop into fan favorites than any of the ADD-esque snippets of music from Cavies' music books the last few years). Now, to your points: 1. I agree --- the arrangements of these other corps are flat out better. I don't believe I would be interested at ALL to hear FOEG through the prism of Phantom's current music books. I'm not arguing that at all....my only point was the FOEG would absolutely thrive in unaltered glory on a field in current years, because many pieces similar to it are doing just that and are fan favorites. I didn't necessarily mean with Phantom again (unfortunately), I just meant that there is still plenty of room for a fu;;y developed, start-to-finish ballad on the field today; in fact, it's still heavily rewarded by both judges & audiences. 2. Again, I agree about the chop n bop style, but it's largely passed. I think it was viewed as the future when no other corps could compete with BD's new patchworks of music --- but recent seasons have proven that notion wrong. If you look at SCV, Crown, Bloo, BK, Crossmen, Cadets of this year (it's a bit early to know what their new style will be), The Academy, Troop, Music City, even (ugh) Scouts of the last two years....its really, really hard to take one seriously with the phrase "there is little musical development in today's shows"...that's just not true. It's a small minority of corps who, I will give you, tend to lack any satisfying musical development in their shows. 3. Again, agreed, we just disagree on the spread of the infection. I still maintain it's limited within the last few years to a few corps and that the trend is passing. Also, I think it's worth pointing out that while it's not my favorite style, when BD's chop n bop style is effective (2017) is when they really DO end up creating this gorgeous new tapestry of music out of snippets & patchworks of source material, and that new tapestry ('17, '15), becomes as moving as allowing free-flowing source material would be. When it doesn't work as well, though ('18), it falls DRASTICALLY short of what full melodies from source music can do. 4. Agreed-ish. I too regard Phantom '96 as one of my favorite openers/musical moments in the pantheon of drum corps music books, and I wasn't even around for it. It's INCREDIBLE. But but but. My assertion is not that it couldn't happen today, but that it couldn't have happened in '96 either ---- it could only have happened with Phantom that year, the particular arranging style, and, most importantly, the ability of the corps to sell that very unconventional opener and keep the audience in the palms of their collective hands despite a slow, calculated build. You're correct that it would be hard to imagine anyone doing that nowadays, but it's also hard to imagine anyone else doing it at any time during the 90s, when fast-paced, ear-splitting openers were the norm. Hell, still are the norm. I imagine it was just as much of a risk in '96 to totally break from the expected opener mold in such a big way as it would be today. My only example of success is somewhat paralleled --- Academy's Unchained Melody closer in 2016. Slow, incredibly moving, barren, stripped down, and the exact opposite of what to expect at that moment in a show until a glorious payoff...but, again, I think it would have been just as impractical in the 90s to do that as now....The Academy took a big risk with that one, as did Phantom in '96, and both paid out in spades. The fact that neither one could easily have been done in a previous or future decade is irrelevant, because neither one could easily have been done in the decade in which they were produced, and that's underlined by the fact that pretty much no one tried to replicate either idea --- each were more lightning-in-a-bottle pulled off by specific corps and a specific group of alumni within those corps, as opposed to trends that came to fruition during a time period. Whereas the original point, Fire of Eternal Glory, is very much a trend that still stands strong today ---- the powerful, slow-building ballad that becomes a hallmark of a show.

It's April with no breaking scandals.....and the way it gets here sometimes, no wonder people stay away.

Well, only you didn't prove the claim was demonstrably false. 1. Nearly all those corps have better arrangers than Regiment, obviously. And, those that may not have better arrangers on paper, are doing a better job at arranging. Even Music City's "Hallelujah" was better than anything Regiment has arranged since perhaps 2012. I'm not slamming Music City (even though it seems like it), but a corps like Regiment should be out-everythinging Music City. I have no faith that this year is going to be any better. Chances are FOEG will be another attempted failure at bringing a classic piece from the past back. Literally, any attempt since 2012 to resurrect a piece from the past has been a failure. I'm astoundingly baffled that they continually take this path. It doesn't take a genius to figure out it's not working. So it doesn't matter if you can present several successful shorter pieces arranged well by other corps, because Regiment isn't arranging anything well. 2. Musical and thematic development is subjective. I happen to agree with those who say corps are playing too many pieces in an 11 minute show, and there's little musical and thematic development. It's like Hooked on Classics. The Cavaliers source music last year consisted of 10 pieces. That's absurd. You cannot fully realize all those pieces in 11 minutes (you can't even fully realize 5 of them). You're comparing what corps are doing today to what corps are doing today. While I agree, all the pieces you have referenced were successful on the field, but when compared to the originals - not so much. When compared to the 80s, 90s and 2000s, there is little musical development in today's shows. 3. The problem isn't as much the length of the pieces being played as it is their arrangements. 30 seconds of horns and drums playing, 15 second drum break, 30 seconds of horns and drums playing, 15 second drum break - repeat, repeat, repeat. It's just boring. Some corps are obviously more successful with that formula - Regiment is not one of them. 4. Go back and listen to Regiment's opener from 1996 and tell me any number today that is given the time to develop like that. You won't be able to. I still regard that opener as one of the most astonishing moments on the field ever. It was stunningly beautiful and thrilling, and it was that way because it was given time to build. It was marvelous. Compare those pieces to the originals. Compare those pieces to arrangements from the 80s, 90s and 2000s. The failure of thematic and musical development today comparatively is staggering, regardless if a piece was successful (by today's standards) or not.

Hawthorne Caballeros https://www.facebook.com/HawthorneCaballeros/photos/a.316445881746993/2430815473643346/?type=3&theater

I thought he was kidding. But I guess humor is no longer allowed. P.S. I bet you know he was kidding too. But maybe you two have some historical feud going on that’s bubbled to the surface again.

Not sure how I missed the film and the soundtrack. This deplorable circumstance now remedied, I agree wholeheartedly. This could be a real emotional blockbuster if you could find a way to translate the story to the field.

I hope they use the version by the Piano Guys that mixes the original with the hymn How Great Thou Art. It helps that this was also Wando HS's ballad in 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNoiY9teGgQ

I would agree that Phantom Regiment is a 7th-ish place corps. And in 2019, I would kill for 7th place! They clearly aren't demonstrating they can do that. I bemoaned the design direction the corps was taking from 2013-2015, but after listening to those shows in the last few days, they are BRILLIANT compared to 2016-2018. Good source music, solid arranging, and solid visuals. The trend in placement is just an indicator of bad design decisions all around. And pretty soon, I'll be saying "remember how solid the drill was in 2016 and how good the guard was in 2017, back when the corps was in the top 12?" Many of us have said for years that the students are outperforming what they're given. That's not commentary on design vs performance scores, but just generally that the students pull out all the stops and let their talent shine through. But soon enough (or perhaps already), that won't be the case. You finish in 9th and 11th in back-to-back years, and 2008 (or 2013, the last top six finish) is a distant memory. There could soon be a combination of "bad design" and "designing down to the talent level"...

And personally, I don't even think the drill was that hard. But it was absolutely genius.

Fort Mill Marching Band used it as their ballad back in 2017. A search on the web will lead you to their Semis performance at BOA GN, featuring a violinist.

Don't gaslight me. They LOST a snare. Go watch the finals video lol...

This is correct. To the (new) OP, Mr. Xena: the plexiglass is no big deal. I know exactly the seats that Kathy is warning you about, and she warns even the Platinum Friends members of the same thing. It's just not the big deal you're thinking it is. And your sound will not be affected at all - not in LOS. IMO, you should not worry about the time you'll have with your folks; they'll have a ball anyway and Ream is right (also IMO), your first year Friends seats are likely better than any Super-3 because the Friends block is always set prior to opening seats to Super-3 sales. Keep the seats, go to the LOS, enjoy the ambiance, and thrill to the shows. You won't likely be disappointed.

I did the same. Contact them. They have been working on it this month.

even as a newer member of Friends, your seats are probably still better than Super 3 options.

I was in a friends group, and while the people at the office that work there are wonderful, it seemed the seat options got worse, especially at certain venues. Sometimes the issue can't be helped due to the issues built into the facility, which may be the case here. Indy only has 22,000 or so seats concert side, which presents a challenge, and top dollar folks get preference. But since I haven't been in to Indy since 2010, it made no sense to stay in the group, as i get better Allentown seats with the pre-sale.

I did the trip last year. Look into AirBnB for lodging. The hotels downtown are unbelievably expensive. I got a whole house within 15 minutes of the stadium for under $90/night. A short Uber ride was inexpensive as well.

in July, it's tough to find a new one and get them up to speed, especially in a bass drum setting. it's a little easier, though not that easy, with brass or guard

There is a cake with some rum raisin icing if you start to tremor, just saying.

High test only!

It was a snare and to maintain the every other maroon cream pattern in the uniforms they had to rest the line throughout the show vs just moving an end (one) snare into the hole. This caused the entire snare line to learn new sets in certain spots, other sets and sections of the show it was easy. There was a spot with a circle in the drill where it still didn’t work out so they used a guard member in that moment (end of ballad I believe) to fill in a red dot

Thanks for sharing. That's a pretty amazing arrangement.

😮 I didn’t know the pressure had been going on for that long. I believe if the Scouts would have remained as competitive on the field as the other green team I doubt they would have started getting that pressure to go coed at all.

mmmm Shapiros already callin my name

I don't know about that, I was there the whole summer. We did have a lot of injuries and that show had quite a few changes but it took a very strong corps to get thru that summer.

My wife and I will be spending time with the 2019 Cadets this coming Saturday & Sunday...can't wait!

This thread is from 2005.

Yes! Imagine a corps being able to capture the emotion of that film.

Look at 2018. A fairly mediocre design musically and visually, that probably should have not made the top 12. This New World did not give us anything 'new'. It was badly re-hashed elements of New World that should have been left alone. Staging was awful, the props were nonsensical, the whole thing screamed 'bad BOA show'. I didn't think the design could be worse than 2017, but somehow they managed. 2017 COULD have been at the very least interesting, but the staging was horrible and the arrangements sub-par. The corps has not designed to upper echelon attributes since 2012! I agree, and have pointed out, the corps downward trajectory. What would "Regiment on Steroids' look like? Would it be competitive in todays environment, or doesn't that matter anymore to those that want the Regiment to 'do their thing'? Unless you are 'all in', you are going to be 'all out' come Saturday night. That is where I see this heading, and it pains me to say this. Pretty much everyone in the top 15 had 'all in' shows, the two most notable exceptions, Regiment and to a degree Xmen (though I liked their show). But you'll notice who finished at the bottom. Music over design has apparently not been working out too well for them because, the music has been lacking. I do agree that, with the limited number minutes brass players have today, they should be able to arrange something amazing and have it perfected.

I'm all for self-proclaimed dinos making relevant points (for example, there is quantifiably less dot-to-dot drill now than there was ten years ago) but the claim that Fire of Eternal Glory wouldn't be given the time to develop by today's music arrangers is demonstrably false. Being generous with a few seconds on either end of the performance, one could reasonably call the '93 FOEG segment three minutes long, from initial count off to putting the helmets back on in silence. Examples from 2018 of ballads being given time to develop: SCV's "My Body Is a Cage" clocks in at 2:30 from start to finish, just 30 seconds shy of FOEG, and if you think that's not an example along the lines of FOEG in that it's a simple, hummable melody that is freely & organically allowed to build from a plain idea into a massive full ensemble chorus over a relatively long period of time, then you simply weren't listening this year. Bloo's "Saro" was a bit more modernized, I'll give you that, since it didn't begin and finish with silence, and the singer wove in "God Bless the Child", but I think the example still stands: a ballad that is allowed to ebb & flow and build organically, as the original music intended. Now, at 2:10ish, it's almost a full minute shorter than FOEG, but it's another CLEAR example of a melody being given the space in time that it needed to fully and leisurely develop in the same manner as FOEG. Crown's "If I Fell", while not my favorite ballad of the year, is another undeniable example: a clear melody that is given tons of time to build from a few simple voices to a huge full ensemble statement of the same melody. This one clocks in at almost exactly three minutes, matching FOEG. As a huge Sigur Ros fan, I thought Cadet's treatment of "Ara Batur" was pretty spot on and true to the original piece. Now, the original piece is almost 10 minutes long, so obviously they cut a few repetitions of the melody out in a way that the previous examples didn't need to (all source material previously mentioned is 2-3 minutes long), but the point is still there: a simple, hummable melody that is presented unaltered by the corps and allowed to grow slowly & fluidly. At 2:45, it landed just 15 seconds short of FOEG, and definitely made a similar point. BK's treatment of Radiohead's "Exit Music" this year clocked in at an unaltered 2:30 devoted to just that song. This example strays a little, since it's not as straightforward, but Mandarins had a GLORIOUS 2:45 second build BEFORE they unleashed on the True Colors melody, and a total ballad time of 3:45, almost a full minute longer than FOEG, and I don't think you'd find a single person from last season who didn't think their show was brilliant. Again, this example is a little different, since so much of the build is drumline and has very little to do with the True Colors melody, but if you don't think that's a long, slow, rise & fall build all the way to the giant pay off of an impact, then you aren't listening properly. It's the perfect example of allowing an entire section of a show to take the time it needs to develop. Music City's "Hallelujah" developed beautifully & fully over about 2:30 minutes. And that's just a rough perusal of THIS PAST SEASON ONLY. Really, to say FOEG wouldn't be given the time to develop nowadays is just....not true. I don't know how else to put it. Just in case I need to hammer this point home further, other recent examples of long, slowly-developing ballads: Bloo's Hymn of Axciom clocks in at at 3:15. Crown's interpretation of Giazotto's "Adagio" was 2:20m and the Lost ballad in 2014 as 2:55. How could anyone forget The Academy's "Unchained Melody"???? At a full 3:30, it's an unquestionable example of a recent crowd favorite that easily matches (and surpasses!) the FOEG example. Hell, let's even get BD in there too! While I will admit that allowing full, unaltered melodies to blossom and grow organically isn't their style, they did it as recently as 2016 with Fernando Valezquez's music from "The Impossibles": a full 2:55 ballad of the same gorgeous melody woven over and over as it builds slowly to a glorious climax.

this would be hysterical if i didn't realize you were actually serious

🤨 Mike

Woulda rather hear their take on Morricone’s Cinema Paradiso. But, I’m just daydreaming.

Dude, if I spent that much of my time in blogs and chat rooms to produce over 100,000 postings, I would not make that s### known publicly. Just sayin'. 😋

Sounds intriguing. Can't wait to see what PC has to offer this year. I can't say enough about that Hollywood show last year. I was completely enthralled from the time I first saw them at the Portland show, which was very early on in the season. There was a lot of growth in the corps. Keep it up PC!!!

I know he was kidding, it just wasn’t funny. No feud, I just think he tries too hard in his attempts to be clever. There have been times when I’ve nearly spit my drink from reading one of his quips.

I would think someone with their own health issues would have some empathy for others. Ever hear of analphylactic shock? I do have to give you credit for the gymnastics you performed just to mock a legitimate medical condition.