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Guardling, you have posted here for quite a while. I make it a point to read what you post. You don't get into the arguments that occur, yet you always post a very logical and well thought out reply to some other crap on here. it's obvious you have experience. It's also obvious you have experience to not challenge people who want to argue with you on a public forum.

everything on the field adds or subtracts from a program..its the how and why. If a corps wants to present something expect it to affect the entire production good or bad...A comparison although small would be a flag color choice...does it add or subtract from the musical production, create a mood, set the stage....now of course one can also have an opinion on that I suppose. Again, it will change( or not ) when corps want it to change, and not before. that is the bottom line

Or as he said to me a few times at a show at Cooper Stadium in Columbus (him sitting in the aisle next to my top row seat) "Watch this, watch this!"...followed by "Did you see that!" I thought this is probably what it was like to sit next to Mozart 🙂

The reality is that the judges judge the shows on the judging sheets that these Corps approved. The reality is that there is no outcry from the Corps that their placements and scores were out of wack. The non reality " bubble world " for you is that you believe your reality of the discontent with the sheets. scores, placements is shared by the Corps themselves that are judged and scored under the current system. But without evidence of such widespread discontent by the Corps themselves on scores and placements and the body of work by the judging community, there is no support from the Corps to change the sheets, nor how the judges currently score these corps. THATS the reality. Do some fans live in a " bubble world " of what should and should not be allowed on the field, and what should and should not be rewarded on the field of competition ?Oh sure. No doubt. Same as it ever was. DCI, or pre DCI years. You name the decade, some fans were having frustrations on what they were seeing/ hearing on the field, and with what the judges were rewarding that some fans did not approve of. But Judges are not sent here from Heaven ( or sent up from that other place ). They are approved by the Corps. And God did not send down from the Mount the 10 Commandments of what should be a venial or mortal sin in display by Corps on the Field. The Corps chose this. They voted for it. In every decade. Blame the Corps for this system you apparently don't like. Its not the judges that are to blame for your discontent and/ or frustration with what they do.

We as in who.. the " WE" who decide all this are the corps period. The corps decades ago decided their own pathway. Kinda the main reason DCI was formed to begin with, which I'm sure you know.

Well, then, it should be of no consequence if we just ended the practice by banning their use, right?

I believe it. But let the shoe be on the other foot, and a BD staff member say something along those lines in ear shot of anyone outside the organization. DCP would have been at DEFCON 1.

Thank You 🙂 It can be a challenge...lol

I'm for the return of Honor Guards, mandatory Flag Presentations in shows, and dancing banned in Drum Corps. Are ya with me ? Get rid of all " the stuff " I don't like. Are you with me on that too ? ☺️

Who is " we " ? The DCI Corps themselves approved the use of props. If they are to be " banned ", then that can happen if enough of these Corps share your quest to have props in shows banned. There are a few things I'd like see see changed too. But I have no real skin in the game.

No the direction is where corps want to go. They decide . I also heard the cost argument over the years with the pit, multiple flag changes etc etc..again, bottom line....corps have made these decisions..the good or bad of that Opinion or fact...depends who one wants to talk to

It was just a question from one person to another, not a formal proposal to the DCI Rules Congress or a call to end all democracy. But since I have your attention - this is not the first time we have heard this sort of double-speak about the ever-increasing array of "stuff" in drum corps. Whatever kind of "stuff" it may be (any-key, any-brass, any-pit-percussion, anything electronic, props, tarps, annual recostuming), there is this fervent fight to include it in an activity of limited financial resources. Yet, at the same time, there is this fervent denial that it has any affect on the score a corps receives. Where do you stand on those two issues? Do you think this "stuff" should be in drum corps? And do you think it adds anything to the scoring power of a competitive show?

Great story, Boss and sounds so very typical of Warren. We'd also heard growing up in midwest drum corps in the 70s of Arsenault upon taking the position asked the Don for the outrageous amount of $10/week or month or whatever it was. Caption heads make that in about 30 seconds now.

Frank Arsenault ? OK... here is what Don Warren ( Cavaliers Founder and many years Corps Director... R.I.P. ) writes in his autobiography " Building The Green Machine" in 2007. I will paraphrase his first meeting with Frank Arsenault. Funny story, imo In the early `1950's, the Cavaliers were knocking on the door of breaking into the top 3 nationally in the Country, but had not yet done so. They were in the 6th-8th placement range .The Cavs were right there in brass, and marching, and GE, but drumming was the achilles heel still and holding them back from cracking nationally into the TOP 3, and maybe even winning it all. In the winter of 1954, Arsenault shows up without warning to the Cavaliers hall in Chicago. Warren is upstairs at his Hall's bar while the Cavaliers drum line is practicing down in the Cavs Hall's basement, per their custom. So a guy at the bar informs Warren that there is a guy outside in the Cavaliers Hall's parking lot that says he wants to talk to Warren. So Warren goes out in the freezing cold to meet the guy. The guy rolls down the window and says to Warren.. " I'm Frank Arsenault ".Ok, thought Warren, the name doesn't ring a bell, and as such means nothing to me. The guy was in an older car, with a clothesline with clothes on it on the back seat. He says to Warren " I want to teach your drumline ". Warren tells the guy " I have a drum instructor ". The guy repeats himself " I know ,but I want to teach your drum line ". So Warren feels bad for the guy with Connecticut license plates on the old car , and a clothesline , and decides to ask him to come upstairs to Warren's bar for a drink. Warren says, I was going to buy him a drink then send the poor guy on his way. So when the guys gets upstairs he starts talking on and on about drumming, but Warren says he politely listened to the guy, but Warren doesnt know anything about drumming, so after about 10 minutes, Warren says he got bored and to get away, Warren excuses himself, and says he has to go down stairs, and tells the guy he can finish his drink, and wishes him well, and says to him nice meeting you, and be safe driving back to Connecticut. So Warren leaves the guy alone at the bar, and heads down to the basement where the Cavaliers Drum Line is practicing. Warren goes over to his Cavaliers drum instructor and says with a grin.. " I have a guy sitting at my bar upstairs that says he wants to teach our drummers ". So the Cavaliers drum instructor at the time ( John Line ) says " Ha ha... funny joke, Don ". ' I know", replies Warren, chuckling ..." but seriously though, thats what he says ". Whats the man's name ?, Inquires Line. " Warren replies " Frank Arsenault ". Line replies " Ya right..You've got Frank Arsenault sitting upstairs at the bar " ? Warren says " Yes". The drum instructor, Warren writes now has his mouth wide open, as if Ike Eisenhower himself was upstairs. So Warren asks " What ? What is it John ? Whats up ?. Line says." if you truly have Frank Arsenault upstairs and he says he wants to teach our drummers, then hire him right now today, on the spot. " Warren says " really ? Who is he ? Line says. " Frank Arsenault is simply, bar none, the best rudimental drummer in the country. He has won numerous rudimental drumming titles , is university trained in percussion , and has taught drummers both inside and outside of Drum Corps to become great drummers." Warren then says " but what about you ? What will you do ? You are my drum instructor " Line replies" I will step aside. If he wants me on board as an assistant, fine, but he can do things with this drum line, that only he can do". Warren says to Line, " I will keep you on the payroll somewhere. Line says " if you left him alone upstairs alone there though, you might have me forever, if he is on the road now back to Connecticut ". ( lol ) Warren writes that he quickly thought to himself " holy mackeral, I left the apparent king of drumming I guess upstairs and told him to finish his beer and be on his way !! ". Warren then writes in his book, " Line and me then run pell mell up the stairs, and hoping to God, that the legendary Frank Arsenault has not left, and is not now on the Illinois interstate " . (lol !.) They get up stairs, where Frank was just putting on his winters coat to leave... whew... they sit him down, and the three talk for a bit, then work out the details for the pay, and Frank says he would like Line to stay on and assist( which he does) . Warren concludes by writing " here I was, clueless about drumming and who is who in drumming, and as a result I almost blew it. Warren writes " I made a lot of good strategic planning with my Cavaliers over the years that forged them ahead, but I cant dismiss the value that more than once I was just one lucky SOB ". lol ! Arsenault went on to teach the Cavaliers to become a better drumline over the next few years, and that hire, says Warren, was probably the biggest catalyst to putting the Cavaliers into the medals, followed up soon after, with their first Championship year, and then more National Championships that followed.

I’m not sure. George Zingali was a crazed nut in the stands. The difference was George would engage the audience. “Did you see that!” Was a common refrain. But a lot of staff today will just whoop and holler over Brittany not dropping a six. I see a big difference.

I love the miners’ lights as head gear. I can see Blue Stars doing this.

When I saw this performance during the Tonys broadcast, I was mesmerized by the choreography with the hanging lights.

He was great. However, by season’s end, the show was a cheese fest.

Perhaps true. But that level of financial and membership struggles led to such Corps folding. In every single case. In my opinion, with all due respect here too, no Corps has made it through the depth of bottoming out like Boston Crusaders have gone thru ( more than once too ), and came out the other side still performing and competing. I never marched Boston Crusaders, but I was around during most of those years, and had dear friends I've known that marched there ( even back in the 1950's) there . I'm not entirely sure some people really know how challenged some years there have been with Boston, so they assume that other surviving Corps still with us, have had similar struggles to stay afloat at times. Well.. I dont know about that. Not the levels of challenge that Boston has faced at different stages, different eras since its founding in 1940, anyway, imo. Boston had an early year ( late 1950's or so ) where they lost everything in a fire at their Hall. Uniforms, Shakos, Instruments, drums, bugles, flags, winning trophies from shows, pictures of the Corps, memorabilia, etc, you name it. Gone. ( other Corps had fires too, losing much of everything. Some survived their bouts with fires, but most sadly didn't ) Boston had a Massachusetts Bankruptcy judge literally take their name " Boston Crusaders " away ( early 1980"s). The judge disallowed them to use the Corps name. One they had for 4 decades at that time. That should have sunk them right there. if a bankruptcy proceeding ruling has a judge that takes your very name away, you don't go out and compete anymore. I mean really.. its curtains with that for most Corps. You toss up the white flag of surrender, as its over. Your Corps is broke, and a bankruptcy judge just took your very name away. Has this happened to any other Corps that is still with us ? Maybe, but I don't believe so anyway. But Boston didnt throw in the towel. They went out as " The Boston Corps ". Same corps colors. Not a bad Corps. Pretty good actually, but jeez, too small to really compete effectively and "win " with the big boys with much bigger Corps than them, by then. They marched under that name for a season, then retired their debt, went back to bankruptcy Court with that, and got their name back. Even as recently as 1997-98, Boston had Staff that worked with the Corps that knew right from the outset that fall/ winter that they were not going to be paid, as Boston could not pay them... so it literally became a knowing labor of love for the Corps Manager and his staff that took over the reins then. Boston traveled one year to Allentown ( 1970's ). Could not afford busses. So they drove 7 hours each way in their own cars. Blue Devils rolled into Allentown in their A/C buses, saw the Boston marchers beside the BD busses getting out of their cars after sleeping in their cars, or on the nearby ground asleep, and getting dressed for competition. What chances did Boston have of making Top 12 Finals that show ? ( Allentown had prelims and Finals back then). None. Too small. No chance. Recall, Boston was in the 1960's one of the top 3-4 Corps in the Country, but now a small shadow of themselves in the size of the Corps compared with their peers. Incidentally, side note... when BD saw the BAC marchers, at Finals in Allentown as they marched by Boston marchers standing outside their cars, the BD percussion section marching by heading into the stadium Finals performance, stopped beside Boston marchers, and the the percussion section of BD opened up the tops of their uniforms, and underneath their uniforms, they all had on Boston Crusaders T shirts underneath their uniform tops. One BD marcher said " You guys did not make Finals, but you are the balls for being here, so you all go out in Finals tonite with us ". I was present at Allentown for this... 'will never forget that gesture from BD. Yes, its true that Boston also operated for awhile with marchers themselves running the Corps. They had brass practice there for awhile in those lean years in the winters beside the Charles River in Cambridge, a stones throw from Boston. ( 1970's ) Their brass practice site was in an old, dark, dank, small shed along the river bank that housed old Harvard Univ .rowing parts and stuff.. a real dump. The old low ceiling shed was heated by heaters the marchers brought to keep themselves warm as they fought off the winter's cold and practiced on their bugles there... by themselves most of the time. A few marchers even slept overnight there in the cold shed more than once or twice after practice. The fact none of them died of pneumonia while there is itself quite remarkable. Other times Boston had adult staffers teach the Corps and those staffers never drew a paycheck for that, as Boston had no money to pay them even of they wanted too. All they mostly had in those years was.... themselves. They were tough as nails. Small Corps, but Giants in the truest meaning of the word, imo. It drew a close and unbreakable bond among them those that went through this that has lasted to this very day , for those still alive and with us I talk to those from those days still. I have enormous respect for them. Boston had another era time ( 1980's )where the Corps Manager at the time left the entire Corps stranded in Europe, as he went to Vegas, gambled the Corps treasury in desperate and foolish attempt to double the Corps treasury, and lost it all. The Boston Crusaders marchers stranded over in Europe had to call home to parents or beg people to find travel money home. Boston kids were mostly working class, middle class kids. They don't have " rainy day" funds for things like this. The major airline, American Airlines, that flew the Corps back to Boston from Europe did not get paid. They sued the Corps. But Boston Crusaders couldnt pay them. They were broke. So for over as decade, marchers were prohibited from flying American Airlines. It wasnt until years later, that new Mgt at Boston reached an out of court settlement that lifted that Airline's travel ban on the Corps and its marchers Boston once had a marcher ( 1970's ) that practiced all winter and spring with the Corps. He had no official release from his previous marching Corps that, iike Boston, were members of both DCI circuit and the Eastern Massachusetts Drum Corps Circuit. He and Boston Crusaders Manager at the time went before the Eastern Mass Circuit Board to secure the transfer release so he could march march Boston in the season just about to ensue. But the boy was denied his appeal. Boston's Manager was furious, and told the board Boston intended to march the boy as he was with them at every off season practice, this was too late to do this to the boy, and the boy had no intent to go back to his former corps, and if he could not march he likely would be tossed back to the potentially dangerous streets of South Boston, where he lived. The Eastern Mass Board said if Boston marched this boy, they would be terminated by the Eastern Massachusetts Circuit at that point for doing so. So the Boston Crusaders Manager said to the Board that very day " Fine, make up the exit papers now, as we are keeping this marcher, he is marching Boston Crusaders this season, and I am announcing to all of you here today, our immediate and official termination from this Drum Corps circuit ". Now, this withdrawal by Boston, the manager knew, was going to cost Boston Crusaders a lot of money, as Boston at the time was winning or medaling in these 12-15 circuit competitions, and their travel costs were nil as the competitions were all in Eastern Massachusetts at the time. Boston after that, only had the revenues from newly formed DCI circuit at the time, a daunting financial challenge at the time for tHE Corps. (But Boston won over that marcher, who late became a DM for Boston), and a loyal and devoted Alum for life. Boston competed with under 20 brass some years during the DCI years too. Never asked to step down a class in Division either. The 20 brass were actually pretty darn good ( late 70's ), but they had no shot competing favorably with Corps with ( at the time ) 48-66 brass. So they took their shot with what they had... and what they had were young marchers and volunteers, and unpaid adult staffers that simply said over and over again to themselves in too many times to count that... " this fiercely proud, a couple of National Championships under their belt ( 1960's ) Boston Crusaders will never die. Not on my watch.". i do know of other Corps that remarkably are still with us after times of struggle. I know what some of them went through in tough times too. Very commendable the resilience they demonstrated too. I applaud their resilence as well. But the Boston Crusaders ( imo )are singularly unique among the current Corps for their depth of struggle... in at least 5 stages of their existence, in different eras too... that collectively become unlike any other. Just my opinion, and from a non BAC alum here.

On the flip side, the kid who they had do the narration for 2014 was fantastic.

Yes, many drum corps have endured struggles. When you can name another drum corps out there who marched only 25 horns in world class (1979) and 19 horns in world class (1983) on 30 year old equipment without a penny to its name and survived, let me know. It is because of the kids who marched during this era who have become very successful as middle aged men and women that we have the financial success of today. Nobody needs to lecture the Boston Crusaders on either character building or perseverance.

I describe it as the best movie you can only watch once.

I know 2005 Cadets were a great corps. I don't think it changed drum corps. I loved 2006 Cadets more and really wish they had not watered down the original show so much as the season progressed. This is what happens when you substitute "daring" for "we want a higher placement."

I don't know if it changed drum corps but the ballad won them the chip that year, it was absolutely gorgeous. They pushed the boundaries further a year or two later when they talked into a microphone for half the show. I caught them in Lafayette and I remember seeing a lot of shut up and play t shirts from the dinosaur crowd in attendance

Dear DCN, you try to steal the good from the competitors all of whom gave everything to compete in the 2021 season. BTW, not one corps reported a case of COVID among it's members. Finally I have to say, you're just scumbag!!!

A L S O. . . the US Open would consistently draw many corps from out-of-region that a fan would normally not see in the great lakes area.

no asterisk needed. they had a great corps and great show.

Tiger Woods has not played in a number of PGA Tour majors, including at least one when he was in the prime of his career. Should we put an asterisk next to the winners of those Tiger-less majors? Under the 2021 rules, agreed upon by the corps of DCA, the Caballeros won the championship. Period.

I realize this is a pretty old post, but I’m a resident of Milton. I don’t know a whole lot about the Keystoners. However, an effort is being made to bring a drum Corp back to Milton. I’m not certain on the name but I don’t think they will be called the Keystoners.

Put whatever number you want in front of his name, but Tommy will always be #1 in my book. He was the Kilties' soloist for five seasons 1973-1977 and was tagged "the Iceman" for his always-cool demeanor. Tommy labored in the galleys of second sopranos during his formative seasons in the Kiltie Kadets. And I didn't discover him. In his rookie season in the big Kilties at age 14, he was unanimously nominated by his section mates to be the soloist. Favorite Tommy Meredith Story: his big solo in "Roll Over Beethoven" was total improv. All I ever put on paper was a progression of chord names. (And I doubt he even looked at that.) Well, he NEVER EVER played that solo in any practice. The corps, and staff, went into the first show of the season with no idea of what Tommy was going to play. (Neither did Tommy.) Now just in case you think he was pampering his chops . . . . . he ALWAYS played the solo work in "Don't You Worry "bout a Thing", which was written specifically to showcase his flexibility and power. In one rehearsal when the corps was cleaning M&M and doing playing run-throughs of that tune, Tommy nailed his stratospheric notes flawlessly 29 times in a row. But here's how Tom Meredith earned the #1 in my book: In 1976 the Kilties were struggling. Seizing advantage of this were the Blue Stars, who offered Tommy a soloist slot and a $3000 cash "scholarship". They picked the wrong guy, because he believed in good old-fashioned loyalty. He accepted the Kilties' simple counter-offer of a no-parade contract and a personal valet (read:rookie). Occasional access to cold beer may also have entered into the negotiations. Tommy remained with the Kilties through the 1977 season, and then began his formal education as a mortician. With Tom Sr. and 5 siblings, they all operate the Marsh-Meredith funeral home. He remains the first-call trumpeter in S.E. Wisconsin, and was the lead in my show bands for many seasons. This is a horn guy who can do it all, and still has some extra in his pocket for the next gig.