[How long do you like your pole.]

I had to think for a moment I have always used 6ft poles both on the field and on the floor. When I first got into colorguard at my high school(oh so loooong ago) we were the first colorguard to use 6ft poles. I remember the other colorguards laughing at us at state championships, and saying that we were playing with "toy" flags. They laughed until we got on the field and they saw all the stuff we could do with a shorter pole(we won the colorguard trophy). The next year just about everyone had 6ft poles B)

[Can I get a do over?]

82 Suncoast....very good corps. I remember when they made finals in Whitewater, beating out Spirit...which was a deserved finals spot.

At DCI...not sure....sure Spirit had improved, but I think Suncoast was better..what surprised me was Spirit jumping over Cavies in prelims....not that the Cavies were that great that year, but I felt they were better than Spirit.

So, I tend to think that Suncoast should have been in finals that year..barely though....

Frank, that year was a intensely competitive year. There were so many good corps that did not make finals that year it wasn't funny. As for our prelims that year, we sucked basically It was not our best showing and Spirit deserve to beat us. Now in finals, we did much better and just slipped into 11th place. I personally think that we could have done much better that year though I must say the colorguard that year was excellent IMO.

[2003 Finals CDs Review]

One more thing regarding recordings and their infalibility. Is there anyone who derives as much satisfaction from hearing the recordings as they do from hearing the same corps live? Probably not. And that's all the evidence I need of how much the recordings distort reality.

One problem with your logic. Live you are hearing and SEEING the corps. Using both the eyes and the ears has a smoothing effect on both. In other words, you hear less detail while the eyes are processing the visual, and the you see less detail win processing the audio. That is the way the ear/brain works. Take away the visuals, and the audio portion comes to the forefront revealing more detail. This is less brain processing and allows for greater concentration. Try watching a movie in 5.1 digital without the picture, and with the picture and you will know what I mean.

[2003 Finals CDs Review]

the mics can lie...Cadets 89 drumline. clean live dirty on cd's/tapes.

Sorry Jeff, this is not true. The reason is sounds cleaner live is because you are hearing the combined effects of the direct output of the corps, and the stadium reverberation. Reverberation within a stadium can hide a multitude of horn and drum sins. When listening to the CD, you are getting more direct output from the mikes, and far less stadium reverberation. Depending on the kind of mikes used(DCI uses omnipolar condenser and dynamic mikes) they can be very revealing of dirt that cannot be heard in the stands.

Many of the "flubs" you hear on any recordings are because of physics and how sound travels..especially with equipment

This is not correct. The mikes only turn what is acoustical energy, into electical energy. Mikes follow exactly(or should)exactly the waveform that is fed to it.

microphones do lie... first off, all sound reproduction devices these days have an overt emphasis on the bass sound and texture... modern music has driven us to this.

This also is not true. Most microphones(depending on which kind)exibit a flat frequency response over the entire range of human hearing(20-20khz). Some introduce a slight rising response around 4khz(this adds clarity), and some actually roll off the bass and highs. The ones I see DCI using are dynamic and condenser mikes which are usually flat, and have no emphasis(or very little)at any frequency

also, the placement of the microphone is very interesting as well... no audience member is 5 feet in front of the percussion and 40 feet tall... and corps do, address things from the box and tower so it is understandable how this is not addressed...

This is irrelevant. In order to get good even coverage of the whole field, the microphone must be raised high. Also to keep from"highlighting" one particular section the mikes must be raised. If it was lowered to near field level, only the instruments that are in the nearfield of the mike will be heard. Raising them is the PROPER technique.

not even taking this into account... scv's extreme dirt ruined their whole performance on the cd... this can also be blamed on mic placement if you would like... just a personal opinion.

Bad placement cannot make dirt. Only the musician can. A microphone will record only what is fed into it. Garbage in, garbage out.

Actually the mics can lie. Case in point Cadets 93 tenors solo. On the tape (CD) they sound dirty as ####, but it was a function of coming through the two mics at different sound rates dut to placement on the field. Live it was a clean as a freshly mown rutabega skin.

This is also incorrect. The only thing that will happen when sound reaches two mikes at different times is what is called the "Precedent effect". The means whichever sound arrives first sounds the loudest. The closest mike will pick up the most sound and will record the intensity of the sound loudest, the furthest one away will pick up less sound with reduced amplitude and intensity.

Microphones do not make things up. If there are intonation problems, it will be picked up. Dirty percussion, it will still be dirty when it is recorded. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Star of Indiana 1993]

I still don't get it

[Jumpropes]

1983 27th Lancer colorguard....extremely underrated. Trying so hard to "keep up with the swift changes" They had a new look, new additions to the staff, new style, and (gasp!!!) a new flag design (Smaller rifles too) The guard work was extremely complimentary to the music chosen, rifle work as difficult as ever......the girls did a great job, by seasons end, extremely competitive.

One of my all-time favorite shows. Drumline was one of the best in DCI, drill was very "Garfieldesque", and performed well...you would never know unless you have the 83 high cameras, thank God I do !! This show was not scored according to their performance...IMO

G,

You are right on the money with this comment. I had very mixed feelings when we beat them that year. I felt bad and great at the same time. Their colorguard was extremely underrated. They are the only one I know of that have used a jump rope in their show, though it was not the first time they were jumping and spinning at the same time. I beleive in 1977 they spun and jumped over flag poles much like they were jumping rope.

[trying out for DCI guard]

Landoeli,

I know first hand how difficult it is to convince your parents to let you march. I had the same tough battle trying to convince my parents(more specifically my mom) to let me travel back and forth from New York city to Chicago 3 times a week, spend weekends there all at the ripe old age of 13. The best way to introduce your parents to your desires is to show them how willing you are to make it happen. In my case I play keyboards. So every chance to use this "gift" to make money I took. During the time when school was in, I took a part-time job(not alot of hours) just to make a little extra money and to show my parents of the seriouness of my pursuit. I also asked her and my dad to come to my school bands competition. And lastly, I practiced, practiced, practiced till I just couldn't move a muscle for one whole year before my audition to make sure I could compete with the rest of the crowd.

When my parent saw how VERY serious I was, and how hard I was working, and how good I had gotten on flag and rifle they signed on. My mother insisted on going to my audition because I was only 13 y/o. I was the youngest to audition that year and I made it much to EVERYONES surprise(including mine)

Once my parents saw that I could compete with the older guys, they were sold lock, stock and barrel(excuse the pun). Not only were my parent sold, but they became die hard Cavalier and Royce Marching band supporters. The only rule they made was that I continue to get straight A's and they would dole out the cash. I complied and so did they.

The moral of my story was that you have to let your parents see that you are VERY SERIOUS about making this happen, even if you had to go the extra mile and a half. When my parents saw me telling my friends that I had no time to play but had to practice, when they saw me working and studying really hard to keep my end of the deal, they were convinced. When they saw my first Cavalier show they were so proud that they made sure I had everything I needed to succeed.

I don't think I fought so hard for anything since my 1979 debut with the Cavaliers, but it was worth the fight because after that, it was easy sailing getting money for colorguard and any other drum corps related activity.

[What are the hardest moves you had to do?]

You didn't offend me. I was just hassling you. I understand now what you meant.

And, no, that WASN'T a flag! I used the word for lack of a better term.

Whew!!! I thought I had offended a fellow brother :) . I have a whole lot of respect for our 1984 horn and drum line. You guys worked really hard, and because of you guys we did better than all of the previous years I marched. It was that year that the cavies began there upward climb to the top 5. I was really glad, because I thought I was going to age out finishing at the bottom of the pack like we had done up to that point :( . Next time you want to hassle me, let me know so I can be a more willing subject lol

[What are the hardest moves you had to do?]

As I recall, that "prop" you speak of was the hornline while we held those 2 continuous long flags.

Just call me a "prop".

Out of due respect to you and the other guys in the horn line, I will restate myself. My rifle was tossed over the horn line holding a "prop" over their heads. I would never disrespect a fellow cavie as to reduce them to a prop. But in reality when you raise a prop higher than your head, and a rifle goes over that prop, that means the rifle is going over the prop since it is the highest point, not your head. If you had no prop(or flag) held over your head(or higher than), then officially it WOULD be going over the heads horn line. Also in colorguard speak what you were holding would be condsidered a prop. IMO it would be a stretch to consider what the horn line had in its hand was a flag. If I offended you I am really sorry.

[Info about guard, rifles, flags, and sabres]

Jennifer,

We were all dumb at one time or another(I still am ). The only way to get smart is to read, follow the resources given, and ask questions. The people in this forum are so cool there is nothing too dumb or stupid to ask. Besides, many here know all there is to know about colorguard and some. Do like Malibu says and check out those sites, and by all means get as many video's as you can lay your hands on. The information in those video's is invaluable to a newby, and will help you get a good start in what you are trying to accomplish.

[Winter guard and drum corps]

I like winter guard because I could choreograph really tough tosses and equipment work that just couldn't be executed on the marching field. Wanna toss a rifle from one corner of the gym floor to the other? Over a pyramid of rifle spinning members? Go for it! Just don't try it on the marching field...the holes in the field alone will kill you...not to mention the wind, rain and atmospheric conditions!

Sally,

You are giving me major flashbacks here b**bs I remember very clearly when we first tried this in practice, we looked like bowling pins falling over. I remember laughing so hard that I almost used the bathroom on myself One time in practice the guy throwing the rifle over the pyramid didn't get it high enough over, and the guy on top of the pyramid caught it. Everyone was so shocked and surprised that we just froze. Steve wanted to keep it, but we like it going over better. You are right, never try this outdoors. Any shift in wind direction and :ouch: you'll be very sorry.

[Best Uniforms]

My favorites are BD 79-80 nice look when they marked time.

27th Lancers 75-till end, classy and powerful at the same time.

My own corps uniform 84 on, really glad we made the change, the other uniform was ugly and uncomfortable.

The Crossman 1978, made them look like they were floating.

The Guardmans uni's in the 70's.

Most definately the Bridgeman uni(or costume if you will Sally!)especially when the guard wore boots.

Phantoms uniforms in the 70's and pre-sparticus period(I hated their costumes after that)

Madison guard uni's in 1995.

92 cadets guard costume and troopers 81 guard uniform.

I am sorry I cannot list any current guard uniforms I like, but I don't really care for much of what I have seen in the last several years.

[flag poles and flags]

yes, I remember those poles....in fact we (Crossmen) used them in 1980. Not very practical for doing tosses....if you dropped it , the mechanism inside would break and you couldn't get it to lock. That happened to a few of the members.......they would be doing a "butterfly" move at the end of the show and the pole would extend all the way out!

I didn't know they were so much trouble. My guard instructor in high school wanted to try them in a portion of our 1980 show, but went for double flags, and poles with streamers instead. Now I am glad she did!!

. Needless to say, we only used it for that one season....too expensive (around $30.00 each) and not very useful........however, I managed to keep three along with the '78 or '79 Bridgemen Rainbow flag

Okay, I am a brown man that is totally pea green right now. I loved those flags. However I have a original 75-76 madison flags, and 77 Anaheim Kingsman flag. I treat them like they are museum pieces.

[Do You "Spin" or "Twirl"]

Hmm....someone needs to put a bug in your instructors ear....letting him or her know by wearing gloves, especially the proper ones, will help make your catches more solid AND help you from getting injured

A bug??? Someone needs to drop an elephant in his ear. I used the chrome sabre in high school guard, and I wouldn't touch them without gloves. Grab a megaphone and put it to his ear and tell him " I won't last a season without gloves". Malibu is right, gloves make for more safe(in this case) better more solid catches..

[flag poles and flags]

Do people prefer fiberglass or aluminum poles more?

Fiberglass poles are the worst. Since we used gloves I didn't worry about splinters. The problem was the bounce. Our sharp pop and snap way of handling the flag caused it to bounce with almost every move. I remember one practice I got a headache from all of the darn vibrating.

My colorguard from high school used aluminum poles bought from the local hardward store and cut to size. I have never used a pole taller than 6' whether it was with the cavies, my high school guard, or winterguard.

Malibu, do you remember the Bridgeman's colorguard flag poles. I thought that idea was brilliant!!! A pool cleaning pole with adjustable height. They used tape to identify 6ft and 31/2ft heights I think. With their long 2x10ft flags the effect was mesmerizing.

[How many people work with the colorguard?]

I was wondering how many people typically work with the colorguard to put a field show on the field these days. Just the colorguard and not any other faucet of the corps. How many to put on a winterguard show?

[What are the hardest moves you had to do?]

One move Madison's flags did in the early 80's was to hold the flag flat or paralle to the ground in front or you while you jumped through it with both feet! Very difficult move and I suggest not to do it unless you are in shape

Madison did this in 81. My high school colorguard turned around and did it in 82. We were trying to add it into our 80 show, but only a few could pull it off. You better be in excellent condition, have strong shoulders and legs or your shins and shoulders will pay a heavy price.

Do the Cavie's move they did with rifle but only with flag.......spin one handed above your head while spinning the other in your right hand (rifle spin).....be careful not to let the poles hit!

Malibu, if you look at the Cavies 82 show, we actually did this including a rifle toss while wrapping the flag pole around your neck.

Another hard move I had to do on rifle was a helicopter toss while standing, fall to the ground and catch. Another was a helicopter toss over the head of the rifle next to you, and to the rifle next to him. We did this in our 85 show. The flag line in 82 did a move that I thought was pretty tough. The did a helicopter toss while on the ground, spun their body around one time, and catch the flag. The rifle turned around a repeated the same move in 83 during the drum solo.

[The End to the Color Guard Controversy]

I was really confused on this one for a while. When I marched in Canberra Brigade, we did push spins. Since we did them so much during warmup, getting them sychronized was not all that difficult when they were written into the show. I leave winterguard that year and start marching in the Cavies. They did drop spins. b**bs Sometimes I would do push spins when I should be doing drop spins Thank God I only had to make that transition one time or I would have been driven out of my own mind.

I personally like push spins better and if I taught again, that is probably what I would teach. Just like I learned the cadence of push spins in my head(down up, down up, down up) that is how I would teach it. Push spins DO look more fluid and smooth.

EKBari, great post.

Both Midwest, and western regional guards did push spins when I marched, and the eastern guards did the drop spins. Malibu, Sally or anyone, correct me if I am wrong.

[How do you want your guard?]

Actually the part about not catching flat anymore? Yeah, the sheets are actually written to credit variety in catches and releases - the judges want to see that the performers can handle different positions and that the designers can be creative.

Trish, when I refer to a flat catch, I mean a catch with no wiggle. Solid and definative. At whatever angle you catch, the rifle or sabre should not wiggle or jerk back into position. This is one of the biggest most prominent sin I see in colorguard today. When I was in the Cavies, we caught at all different angles, but the catches were solid and clean with no wiggle or jerking back into position. I don't see this anymore. Even releases were not done in unison even when they were supposed to. The judges actually give credit for this? :( b**bs

[How do you want your guard?]

i'm not Trish's guard dog. but i watch anyone with an opinion that they like color guard the way it is get ripped apart.

My bad. So you are the colorguard forum watch dog. You must be really busy coming to the rescue of everyone who seemingly can't defend themselves in a lively, but friendly debate.

Kennedy Stadium, in Bridgeport, isn't a tiny stadium - i believe it seats approximately 10,000 people. they may have lost a few seats in the renovation for ramps and handicap seating and bathrooms, but it is still a very large stadium by everyday standards

A 10,000 seat stadium is not large in the grand scheme of things. Not when they hold finals in stadiums that seat 40-50,000 people. I think you are thinking a little small.

i do pay attention to the rifle tosses and the spinning flags, not jsut the emoting viewing. why don't you show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can show you the exact hand positions on the flag, rifle or saber. no, that's pretty much all a blur too from that persepctive. and yet the judges down on the field are concerned about it. just as they are with emoting and such.

You're spinning the point to make a point. I never made any reference to hand postitioning because I know that it is not visible from the pressbox. My reference is to spinning and tossing versus a smile or emoting. Since there is no arguement that a spin is easier to see than a facial expression I can clearly see why you are spinning the subject. You are pretty transparent. Correct hand positioning is an integral part of equipment handling and colorguard as a whole(well it used to be anyway). Emoting is not. Its just that simple.

as far as 20,000 people emoting? when was the last time 20,000 people were actually at finals? really. give me a realistic number here.

Sorry, when I marched there WERE 20,000+ people attending finals. Well, maybe all of those people are taking dance classes so they can fully understand where caption heads are trying to take colorguard. Or maybe they have lost interest in the art.

i didn't say i want a touchy feely dance is good forum. talk about blowing stuff out of proportion. but when all it is is arguing about old vs new, well then this place might as well be re-named RAMD

Its not blown out of proportion, you took all of this out of context. This is not an arguement about old vs new. You made it that way because you are reading all of this with an adversarial position. Its a arguement of precision, what is clean and uniform versus intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. In other words substance versus fluff, not old versus new. Once again, click your mouse on emotions and defensiveness off.

some people like fluff, others don't

These days ALOT of people like fluff and it is very evident.

you telling us that we are wrong wrong wrong does nothing to get the point across.

I never said anything was wrong, wrong, wrong. The word waste is very different from wrong. You are twisting and spinning my words to make your point.

obviously from the results of this poll there are people out there who want more than just guardwork alone. wasn't that the point of the original pole anyways? the majority agreed that dance was an important factor in guard. not all dance. not most dance but definately that is should be included.

I voted for more equipment work, a little dance, but no props. And dance is not an IMPORTANT part of colorguard. It is a part of colorguard. The important part of colorguard is getting whatever you are doing whether it be dance, equipment work, or both done simultaneously clean and uniform. This is the reason so many alumni are displeased with the direction colorguard has taken. Too much emphasis on dance class, and not enough on equipment precision and uniformity.

I personally think you are reading this poll all wrong just to support your responses.

Emphasis on dance, some equipment work, lots of props & costumes

This is the current state of colorguard

Emphasis on equipment work, some dance...some props and costumes

This is what is leading in the poll and does not reflect the current state of colorguard today.

Equal balance of dance and equipment work...but with props and costumes

Even if this reflects current state of the art in colorguard to some people, it is still not leading in this poll. More people(and me included) would like to see way more emphasis on the equipment, and use dance only when appropriate to the music. That means you shouldn't need a dance class, or a degree in dance to be in colorguard.

I've been to what I believe is my fair share of marching competitions (HS and DCI) and I can see emotions in the colorguards from up high.

Zack, with all due respect to you that is not my experience. Maybe you have better eyes than I(and many people on this board and in the upper tiers of the stands) have. Now, my question remains, which is EASIER to see. A smile of emoting face, or a spinning flag or rifle?

Not everyone in the stands can see high marchers lift their toes or how well their individual technique is. That doesn't make it unimporant does it? Because according to you, it would be fluff...

You are guilty of the same majoring in minors that legal eagle is. Proper marching technique(whether seen or unseen) is an integral part of any marching activity. Emoting is not. Proper marching technique, hand postitions, leg lift height, stride, clean catches, and equipment postitioning have all been apart of colorguards since DCI began and earlier than that. Emoting and facial expressions are not. There are guidlines for proper marching and equipment handling techniques. There is no proper technique for emoting or smiling.

How do you express intellectual, asethetic and emotional effects without talking in person? There are various things that most people do to express feelings (not just facial expressions, either) that much modern dance in colorguard incorporates.

Can you show me how to relate to an audience that I am angry without a facial expression? How about sadness, or loneliness? What can I do with just my body that can relay these emotions without using my face. If you can give me an effective answer to this you will revolutionize the way humans interact with each other. Image me trying to tell you I am angry or disappointed with you with no words, or facial expression. Sorry man, it don't fly. Without a facial expression the is no effective way to convey anger or disappointment. We would girate and wiggle ourselves to death trying to do it. When it comes to coveying emotion, your face is half the equation. If that were not the case, then there would be no need to emote on the field right?

[How do you want your guard?]

why does it have to be that Trish has to make her point to you Deft?

Are you Trish's guard dog? Can she not answer for herself since the post is directed to HER.

you referred to today's work as "fluff" earlier. shouldn't it be you that have to show your proof of that too? why is it that we can't all just co-exist in this activity? why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays?

I argue that what makes color guard interesting is that you are trying to accomplish body (dance), equipment and movement (drill) while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. When you do all six of those things at the same time (combining both the performance and GE triads)-- now you are talking some hard ####.

You could have said all of this in one word. FLUFF

while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects

This part of the comment is fluff to me, not today's guard work. How in the heck do you project intellectual, aestethic and emotion ON A FOOTBALL FIELD?

why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays? i don't notice threads started about how the old stuff sucked so bad and was boring, but i do notice threads started for the purpose of ripping apart the guard of today.

You are being overly emotional and defensive. Nobody is attacking the marcher, they are directed at the instructors and caption heads. Do the marchers design the show, or write the guards equipment book? Not in most corps. Nobody makes these comments about the stuff they did in the past because we did with precision, in unison, and it was VERY clean. However, many current marchers don't respect the guards of the past and their accomplishments and this was commented on in this very thread by Jojo.

Deft: shouldn't you be the one who really needs to show that facial expressions aren't necessary on the field because only the first 3 rows can see them? it's funny you say that because i was at Bridgeport DCI and sat mid-way up and could see all the guard and was in the top row at Bristol DCI and had no problem their either. admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then.

You have used two examples both small stadiums to make your point. Unfortunately the championships are not held in smaller more intimate stadiums. They are held in large capacity not so itimate stadiums. In these stadiums there are very few seats that are optimal for prime emoting viewing. The rest of us pay more attention to the tossed rifle or spinning flag.

Here is my challenge to you. Show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can pick up a smile. JUST ONE! Give me an example of one stadium where a championship took place where a smile can be seen from the upper tier, or any other non optimal seat.

admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then

Thank you for making my point. There are a finite amount of seats on the ground floor and between the 35 yard lines. The rest must sit in places that are not optimal to make emoting and projecting intellectual, aestethics and emotional effects visually effective

many of us think emoting is a good thing and that there is no reason to march with a straightface and emotionless look on your face.

Why not? If more than 20,000 people cannot see your emoting then what is the point? Are you doing it just for something to do?

anyways, that's my perspective on it. i'm not trying to prove a point, just saying i have an opinion. but i find that many people here like to tell you your opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with theirs.

Just like you are doing now. You are clocking me just because I stated my opinion. Sounds like hypocracy to me.

so here's my suggestion: since we all have varying opinions on it, lets try no to make it personal.

While you are at it, why not kick overly emotional and defensive to the curb too.

because honestly, if this forum is going to become another "us against them" forum it's not worth reading.

If this is going to be a touchy feely dance is good forum then its not worth reading. If it going to be a forum where one can't HONESTLY state their opinions, then it is a forum not worth reading. I can live three lifetimes and will NEVER agree that dance is more visually effective than a equipment work. My experience just does not support this. I have stood in many stadiums all over this country looking at different colorguards do their things. The only time I could see any facial expressions is when I was either on the field level, or in the first few rows close to the field. At any other point the face is harder to focus on while other things are happening on the field. It is both a logical and a scientific fact that in a large space, and in the presence of other moving objects, the eye will focus on the object that is the largest, or making the largest move. I think everyone who has been in colorguard for more than ten minutes would agree that it is easier to see a spinning flag or rifle from a MAJORITY of the seats in a stadium than it would be to see a smiling or emoting face. If everyone can't see it, its fluff plain and simple.

[How do you want your guard?]

Perfectly clear on the difference between spins and tosses - however neither equals "pose"...thanks!

Trish, you are trying to spin this like a top so I am going to put it to you another way just to slow the rotation a bit. How many catches does ANYONE do with the legs closed and body straight, rifles at the exact same height and angle? Almost NOBODY does it. They catch with a lunge, kick, lean, or dance move.. That is what I call " posing". You know, when you catch it anyway but straight. You still haven't fully explained the linkage between a toss and a spin so I am still lost on the point you were trying to make.

Oh, and check out the Brigs rifle line this year if you wanna see double-time. Ever heard "Pinball Wizard"? Pretty brisk tempo and they're getting through it just fine

I am very familar with "pinball wizard" . My high school band did the song in one of our football halftime shows. The tempo is brisk, but not nearly as fast as drills that are done by lets say the Cadets, or perhaps the Cavaliers in 2002. So you didn't make your point on this one either.

[How do you want your guard?]

We don't "spin the weapons we pose with them?" deftguy? Really? 'cause I threw a triple, a quad, a five, a 6 and a right-handed blade quad on sabre last summer in Brigs!

Can you explain to me your interpretation of a spin and a toss? I distinctively remember that spins hit your hand at every count. A toss spins in the air one or more counts. A triple is a toss, not a spin. I don't think anyone would disagree with me when I say they don't spin(in the traditional way, not this made up whatever new way)in shows today. If it happens, it is for a very brief time. Shows today have tempo's that are much to fast for spinning, epecially for doing double time.

And go tell April Gilligan, Bruno Zuccala and Scott Chandler (among others) that they're "posing" with their weapons (much less all of DCI and DCA!)

Okay, no problem. They are all great caption heads(April and Buno I really like, I'll think I pass on the latter)but I still have no problem telling any of them they don't spin in shows today. Their statue in colorguard is respected here, but not revered in god like fashion. I am sure none of them would be moved by my comments. Why should they be? Just keeping it real. B)

And who says "dance" means "pretty show"?

I know of no other word that more accurately describes it. It sure isn't in your face

Please - if you don't believe me - get out there and try it. It's not easy but I have learned more in 3 summers and the last few seasons of winter guard than I have my whole career!

You are under the faulty assumption that I have never done dance. I did dance back in the early eighties when next to no one was. I did it in winterguard and high school guard back then. Dance isn't new. Its overcooked and visually ineffective on the field. I have said that one hundred million times on this board. Winterguard, dance is perfect. Every subtle nuance can be finely resolved and visually effective. On the field you are wasting your time with all of the senseless emoting, intellectual and asthetic pyrotechnics. Congratulations to you for your growth in the activity by the way.

I'm thinking it was 76 ??? Maybe Western Regionals??? I remember a guard (I think it was the Seattle Cascades???? and/or a Stanley Knaub guard) that did more of a dance routine than a colorguard show ... and we all stood there with our mouths open and said WTF. Hey, who knew!

Jojo,

It was 1978 western regionals. I remember this because I marched in the Canberra Brigade that year and we did pretty good. That was my first year in winterguard and I was just a baby then. They were called the Seattle Imperials. They married ballet and colorguard in such a unique and professional way that I actually loved it. That guard could out dance ANY colorguard in existance today with one leg broken. Not to mention their equipment handling skills were beyond reproach. They were SOOOOOO far ahead of there time that it was a shame. If guards danced on that level today, I would have no problem with dance. In my senior year in high school guard, Stanley choreographed our winterguard show and man was he amazing. He actually taught me how to dance and made it really fun.

[The End to the Color Guard Controversy]

JoJo,

Do not EVER get off of your soapbox. I so look forward to meeting you. I was going to join the Renegades this year, but my job has me living in one city during the weekends, and working in another during the week. Next year it will take wild, uncontrolled ,in heat horses to stop me from joining. You post truely mimicked my feelings down to the punctuation. I did double time spins to a direct double and catch under the leg in front of my nephews colorguard. They just gasped and fell out. When I told them that eleven other guys did this just like I did cleanly, uniformly, and with deft precision, they showed me what a deer looks like when headlights are heading for them

[How do you want your guard?]

I argue that what makes color guard interesting is that you are trying to accomplish body (dance), equipment and movement (drill) while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. When you do all six of those things at the same time (combining both the performance and GE triads)-- now you are talking some hard ####.

You could have said all of this in one word. FLUFF. This sounds like the mantra to a broadway play, not colorguard. Emotion does not make it to the press box. Can you explain to me how to project intellectual and emotional effects that are visible to someone sitting in the pressbox. Or even 30 rows from the field.

I think we lose some of the WOW factor by design and training... intentionally

I do not agree with this statement at all. The wow factor is gone because what is being done is not exciting. Pretty perhaps, but not exciting. We were well trained and still acheived the WOW factor.

another thing-- you can all stop bashing ballet on the field. from what I've seen most of today's guards base their dance programs on modern dance not ballet. i could go into a long lengthy discussion about the difference, however I really doubt most of you would care

I do understand the difference between the two, however neither of them are visually effective on the field. So you point may be lost with this fact. Now for winterguard, totally apropriate and visually effective.

Corps,

There is no need to flame. Everyone has a opinion about colorguard and what they should be doing. However, I am lost most of the time watching what guards today do. 70% of the dance moves are lost on the field. The colorguard integration in most shows is disjointed and appears to be an after thought. Moves are not being done uniformly. Catches are not clean, and what is the point of most guards using sabres and rifles? They don't spin them, they pose with them.

When it takes one to get a degree in dance just to make the colorguard, its not colorguard anymore. Its a dance team with props. Why the emotional faces, emoting, projecting intellectual and asthetic effects if only your caption head and the first three rows actually see it? That is a waste of energy, energy that is better spent using your equipment which is more visually effective. Movement is only good when it is integrated within the equipment work. Dance on the field is a waste, modern or not.