audiodb

Perhaps BD Entertainment is one component that falls in this category.

I owe you a tall version of whatever your beverage of choice may be. I spent months on here trying to say what you have so succintly summarized here.

It's been awhile. To bring us up to date: What a relief. The sky is not falling, then. No, wait. The sky is falling! Oh, is that all? Whew! The sky is not falling. The sky is falling!

Um, who "paid X fee" for the Murfreesboro show? How about the Houston show? Well, at least your first four words were correct.

Well, first of all, it sounds like they are removing all audio for the offending portions, either by editing those spots completely out, or by muting the audio while the video remains. Now, as for whether you can selectively remove the voice part from the recording, leaving the rest of the audio behind it intact....not really. I have performed that kind of magic on recordings myself, but only with 50-year-old monophonic material. It gets far more difficult when the recording is: - in stereo, or multitrack - professional quality - acoustically live venue (especially a dome....dome....dome) Granted, sounds coming from the corps' speakers are selectively recorded by dedicated mics at world-class championship week events. You can tell how much of a difference this makes from some of the recent APDs that were mixed without those speaker mics. But the speaker sounds are still picked up by the other mics. The question, then, is not whether you can remove those sounds to your own satisfaction, but whether you can satisfy the rights owner that they are completely gone. That leaves two choices. Spend hours and hours of unpaid labor detuning those voice samples (and their echoes), and hope the original artist doesn't object....or spend a few minutes removing all audio from those segments, leaving no doubt. Guess which one DCI's lawyer will recommend....and rightfully so (pun intended).

Right. More specifically, what is "unfair" is that several corps who have met DCI's definition of a "full-touring" world-class corps have been mistakenly called out as "limited-tour" or "regional division I" by people who I guess weren't aware what the policy really was. In their 10-year term in WC, Mandarins have never done less than the DCI-defined full tour. I was not commenting on the fairness of the policy itself.

And some unfair ones at that. "Full tour", by the DCI definition, means joining the tour by San Antonio. The Mandarins have done that in every one of their 10 seasons in world-class.

Well, that's why I asked. Jersey Surf 2012 didn't have the kind of talent/experience of those top 3 you mentioned, so they made design choices based on what they did have. In fact, to accomplish what they did in terms of designed effect = achieved effect, working within their abilities, would suggest to me that they made some very clever design choices. If you were merely pointing out that those top-3 corps deserve better GE scores than Jersey Surf (largely because of the plethora of higher-scoring design choices they have available to them due to that higher talent level)....no argument there.

So to use one of your favorite words....you are insinuating Jersey Surf had poor design? I see. Well, then, what should they have done differently?

Do as you wish....doesn't matter. I think I was clear enough in my post about a phenomenon that occurs sometimes. And you were clear enough about misrepresenting it as if I claimed it happens all the time.

Did you mean September 2012?

This will never end as long as you keep twisting my words into strawmen like this one.

Since I'm not being paid for my opinions, I guess you're right, then. Oh, OK. Your opinions are facts, and mine are not. Got it! Of course "one day" is not a trend. The trend is what happens the rest of the season. (By the way, the "one day" you refer to is actually four days....the opening weekends of 2011 and 2012.) No. They are fully capable of judging....but at times, they are influenced by the latest results. Are you contending that they never are? It was four days....and IMO, the move they made on the score sheets corresponded to what happened on the field. From what I've read, other fans in the stands saw things that way too. No controversy there.

Are you suggesting (for example) that no one can evaluate brass and percussion at the same time? Again, you totally lost me. The only way anyone could arrive at the opinion that one performance is different from another is by seeing them both. Yes. I already said that in the post you quoted. Oh, if only you didn't tell me anything else. Just take this paragraph alone, and you have a valid opinion delivered clearly and respectfully. If you don't think what I present "proves" my point, you are free to disagree. Fact is, those two weekends are all we have to go on. Maybe it's not enough to "prove" what I am saying. We can hold differing opinions on that. That was four days earlier. Considering that according to you, I have no right to form cross-caption opinions on these corps in the first place, what point would there be in taking your bait and sharing such opinions here?

Yes there were. GSC introduced the "intermediate" class starting in 1979. Execution judging time was 6 minutes, vs. 11:30 for open-class. Corps like Oakland Rangers, Crimson Kings, Paramus Mountettes, St. John's Crusaders and Emerald Grenadettes (feeder to the Emerald Grenadears) entered competition in intermediate class that year.

Try DCP's search feature. There is far more posting history behind this than just what appears in this thread.

This is pointless. I specifically stated that I attended numerous shows in 2012, not just one. And what could I possibly have thought should be "different" between contests if I only saw one contest? You are not making any sense. Never said anything about qualifications. Never said I was doing a judge's job. A judge's job is far more than just forming opinions....it's also about documenting them clearly, accurately and promptly; quantifying them in the context of the DCI scoring system; providing comments to corps staffs; and more. Well, I see from this and some of your past posts that I have hit a particularly raw nerve. And I think I know why.... Well, then, you'd better dig deeper. Show me other recent situations where all four pairs of corps in an eight-corps WC contest either swapped positions (up to three spots in the process), or moved two points in relation to each other, all in one day. None of your examples come anywhere close.

Do you think "nothing to do with DCI", is a more accurate characterization? Anyway, I said these corps participated in DCI shows. Often, that meant traveling farther than for any other event on their schedule, including overnight stays or even a tour. I consider that to be "involved". Why bother? You've already indicated you will just dismiss them as not really "involved". Nevertheless, here goes. Let's take a year when you were involved....IIRC, you worked with King's Regiment in 1978, right? Here's a list of 1978 corps that participated in DCI-sanctioned contests: 1st Canadian Regiment, ALB 27th Lancers, MA 2nd Décade, QUE 76ers, NY Abénakis, QUE Amvet Brigadiers, MA Annunciators, MA Arbella, MA Argonne Rebels, KS Avant Garde, NY Barons of Steuben, NY Bengal Lancers, CT Beverly Crusaders, MA Black Diamond Regiment, PA Black Knights, IL Black Watch Highlanders, WA Black Watch, NJ Bleu Raeders, LA Blue Devils B, CA Blue Devils, CA Blue Knights, MN Blue Stars, WI Bluecoats, OH Boston Crusaders, MA Bridgemen, NJ Buckeye State Caballeros, OH Cambria Cadets, PA CapitolAires, WI Cardinals, ONT Cascades, WA Catholic Daughters of America, PA Cavaliers, IL Chancellors, NJ Châtelaines, QUE Citations, MA Classics, CT Coachmen, MI Colonades, CT Colts, IA Companions, ONT Conquistadors, CA Continental Ambassadors, KS Cranford Patriots, NJ Crimson Buccaneers, NJ Crimson Cadets, NE Crossmen, PA Defenders, MA Drifters, BRC Dutch Boy Cadets, ONT Dynamic Royalaires, NJ Emerald Grenadears, NJ Emerald Knights, IA Empire State Express, NY Étoiles, QUE Firemen, IL Fitchburg Kingsmen, MA Florida Vanguard, FL Flying Dutchmen, IL Freelancers, CA Garfield Cadets, NJ Gateway City Combine, MO General Putnam's Men, OH Golden Skyliners, MT Greece Cadets, NY Guardsmen, IL Heightsmen, MA Hudson Valley Indians, NY Imperial Regiment, NY Jean-ettes, MA Joanettes, MA Kiltie Kadets, WI Kilts, WI King's Regiment, NJ Kingsmen, CA Kiwanis Kavaliers, ONT Knights, IL La Salle Crusaders, IL Lions of London, ONT Long Island Kingsmen, NY Madison Jr. Scouts, WI Madison Scouts, WI Magnum Force, MA Malden Ambassadors, MA Mandarins, CA Marion Cadets, OH Mavericks, PA Medieval Barons, CA Mello-Dears, NY Métropolitains de Chicoutimi, QUE Middlesex Guardsmen, MA Midshipmen, MI Mighty Liberators, NY New York Lancers, NY Niagara Frontiersmen, NY North Star, MA Northstars, ONT Oakenshield, NJ Oakland Crusaders, ONT Odyssey, MA Offensive Lions, QUE Patriots, NY Phantom Regiment Cadets, IL Phantom Regiment, IL Philadelphia P.A.L. Cadets, PA Picadors, RI Pioneers, WI Queensmen, MA Rancheros, QUE Regal Crownsmen, RI Renaissance, WA Renegades, MA Royal Brigade, NJ Royal Crusaders, PA Royales, NJ Sacred Heart Crusaders, NJ Saginaires, MI Santa Clara Vanguard, CA Seattle Imperials, WA Seneca Optimists, ONT Silver Sabres, KS Simplex Minutemen, MA Skokie Imperials, IL Sky Ryders, KS Socialites, MA Spartans, WA Spectra, MA Spirit of Atlanta, GA Squires, NY St. Ignatius Girls, NY St. John's Girls, ONT St. Peter's Royalaires, CT Stardusters, LA Starisers, MA Statesmen, IL Thunderbolts, WI Titans, WA Troopers, WY Troubadours, QUE United Regiment, NJ Vagabonds, PA Valiant Knights, OK Velvet Knights, CA Ventures, ONT Wausau Story, WI Wranglers, WI My records show 252 North American junior corps competing in 1978. There are 145 who were participating in DCI-sanctioned contests, a majority (58%). Obviously, that percentage has increased since then (now it's 100%). That is not natural at all. Smaller, younger or less competitive versions of an activity often develop their own rules different from those of the "major league". Little League baseball allows aluminum bats, only plays six innings, and then there's tee ball. For the young, soccer is played with smaller teams on smaller fields with smaller goals and a smaller ball. The same was true in drum corps, where BITD, smaller/younger/less experienced corps often competed under different rules permitting shorter shows, shorter time-in-motion requirements, and modified scoring systems. Really? Here's a post from someone who was there too....oh, wait, it's you: Apparently, even your own local circuit had naturally developed their own scoring system. But once their corps started getting involved in DCI-sanctioned contests, then they wanted to change the local scoring system to match DCI. I was at GSC circuit meetings in the 1990s and early 2000s as their DCW rep and historian. Some of the GSC corps were involved participating in DCI, and some were not. The ones that were made a point in meetings numerous times that the rules, scoring, and eventually even the particular judging pool GSC was to use should correspond with those of DCI....that it would help them do better in DCI competition, and thus reflect favorably on the GSC as a whole.

Really? Then who was posting under your account name a few weeks ago? They had no shortage of such opinions voiced in this same forum, even based on shows viewed via broadcast instead of in person. Hmmm.... For a percussion person, you (or whoever hacked your account) seem to have felt qualified to comment on brass and visual here in the past. Geez, you even judge contests before they happen.... So spare me the "no opinion" act. We all have opinions....as we all should. There was more than one surprising move in these shows. In the 2011 example, not only did Crown go from first to fourth, but the Cadets overcame a 3-point loss to BD to beat them the very next night. Bluecoats lost to PR by a full point one night, then beat them by a full point the next night. And while SCV and Blue Stars stayed in place, Blue Stars gained 2.4 points on them. Once the judges have access to last night's recaps, though, you just don't see that kind of movement between corps anymore. Yes. I said that in my post. You lost me there. Generally speaking, placement changes are equally likely from higher-placing corps losing their edge vs. lower corps moving up. Am I missing something? Continuing to mischaracterize what I say is the real cop-out.

Well, I see you think highly enough of yourself to have an opinion on it too. Crown going from third to first was a significant change. How many shows later in the season saw a move like that? Remember, DCI also withheld scores on opening weekend in 2011, and there was a corps moving from first to fourth in those two shows.

Really? Oh, tell me more about what I think. Let's see just how much farther off-target you can get.... OK, that was fun. Feel better? Now, back to reality.... Yes, competition has stagnated. No, I didn't say judging was solely responsible for that. Of course the corps on top are there because they're good. Looking closer, though, we see that these top corps are in nearly the exact same order every single day. If it weren't for the duel between Phantom Regiment and Cadets for 3rd, the top six would have been set in stone all year long. I don't know about you, but I went to a lot of shows this season....saw a lot of performances up close. Most world-class corps perform at a very high level, and consistently so. A great deal of the consistency we see in contest results are simply an accurate reflection of that fact. That said, at times there are some day-to-day variations in performance clear enough to cause multi-spot fluctuations in caption placements and actual changes in overall placement between these closely-matched competitors. Sometimes, I saw the judge in a particular caption respond exactly as I did. Sometimes, I instead saw that column on the recap parrot the most recent night's results. Too little of the former and too much of the latter, and the overall placements never change....like with 2012's 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th place corps. I've also noticed something refreshing, and encouraging. On opening weekend, when DCI has run shows on both days and kept the results under wraps until Monday, we get astonishingly different results from those two shows. A corps can win one day and finish 4th the other day. This can't happen anywhere else in the DCI season, when recent scores/recaps are available to all. Wouldn't it be great if judges could give us their instinctive opinions all season long, instead of just until recent recaps are available? Unfortunately, the system drives judges into this behavior. DCI's corps have asked for consistency from the judging community year after year for decades now. They don't want surprises (not nasty ones, anyway). They even want their scores to rise steadily all season, in parallel with the rising quality of their performances. Never mind that scores are just numbers judges use to get the corps ranked and rated properly in relation to each other. No, judges are not solely to blame for anything....they are doing the job their employer, DCI (i.e. the corps), asks them to do. If I were a judge, I'd do the same. So I'd like to see the judging pot stirred in some way....but I'm open to suggestions. Got any?

Right now, competition is so stagnated that just about anything that rocks the boat would be a positive. Granted, audience voting wouldn't be my first choice....but I think we need some small portion of the 100 points given out by people outside of the long-time DCI judging pool. They can be entertainment industry professionals, performers, musicians, music teachers, or even trained judges from other marching music circuits....anyone that brings a fresh perspective, and won't be guided by last night's recaps.

OK. His claim is that most corps had "nothing to do with DCI". In reality, as early as the mid-1970s, the majority of corps participated in at least one DCI-sanctioned contest each year, and thus had something to do with DCI. In fact, so many local corps were participating in DCI events that they lobbied their local circuits to adopt DCI rules.

I made no such suggestion. And if I did, it would not leave any more than 5% - 10% of the score to anyone other than the regular judging panels. How would it be unfair? If it scares you that much, perhaps there is some merit in it.