Dan Guernsey

Yep, we were poised to take it but it just didn't happen. Perhaps what happened to us in '74 was similar to what happened to you guys at '72 finals. In any event, SCV was the better corps that night in '74 and deserved the win. As for the flag, a guy from our guard took it that night; I had heard that it was recently returned. I talked briefly to Gary Czapinski this past weekend in Madison. I know that he worked with both SCV and MS in the early 1970s. I asked him point blank who came up with the "Alice" concept in '71. He said it was his idea and sold Ray Baumgardt on it. Larry McCormick was part of it also, but, according to Gary, McCormick initially wanted to do the "Circus" show with us. When it was all hashed out, we got "Alice" and the Cavaliers got the "Circus" show. Paul Milano may have some added info on the genesis of those respective shows. all the best

On the "Brass Roots" video there is semi-slow motion shot of the '73 Kingsmen guard work--at the very beginning of "Folksong Suite," seen from a worms-eye perspective. I believe it is a clip from Bluegrass Invitational that year. I get chills ever time I see it: some of the coolest friggin guard work I've ever seen. Total rush! . . . 1974 Kingsmen--arguably my all-time favorite show (behind my beloved Scouts, of course). Enjoyed it as well! Your welcome, Ron. Enjoy! I'm sure we'll run into each other. Dan

You right, Ron. SCV and MS were in alot of the same shows in 1971 and 1972, and not just at the big regional shows. Those were the days when the west coast corps had to come frequently to the midwest. Of course, we did the same in 1971 and 1972, competing in Wyoming, Drums Along the Rockies, and even went to CA in 1972. So, we had alot of opportunities to meet each other socially. We even had chances to watch SCV practice. I remember in 1972 watching Fred S. run a drum line rehersal; one could tell right then and there that a new era of drum corps had started. Madison is a fun city. I'm sorry we got Paul and his companions into trouble that night in Madtown, lol. I hope Gail wasn't too hard on you guys.

Hi Paul, Glad to hear from a '71 vet--'71 SCV was my favorite show that year, especially the opener--Globe Playhouse. The opening statement to that piece blew me away. Yep, you remembered correctly. We owned an old firehouse on the east side of Madison on Atwood Ave. It was torn town sometime in the mid-70s. I remember doing it in 1973 at the Madison show. You're speaking of Jeff Tosef, a cymbal player: arguably the shortest guy in the corrps. He was the logical choice to play the rabbit. Yep, you're speaking of Karson and Kelly Klund who owned the bar, "The Stone Hearth," a favorite Scout hangout in the 1970s to mid-80s. The bar is no longer there--various establishments have occupied the building since the mid-80s: a church, a punk rocker joint to name a few. Cool! I hope to see it. All the best, Dan

Ron, I was on the left side of the field most of the time--hard to pick out on the video. As for names, we didn't have any, except if someone "ticked." In that case, you can imagine what dwarf name he was called, lol. Dan

Ask and you shall receive. Wikipedia's take on it: You can throw in Hugh Hefner's "Playboy Bunny" logo as a potent symbol of the "free love" movement back then. The bunny symbolism indeed had a wide resonance in American popular culture, denoting individual freedom in its various manifestations. The rabbit in "Alice in Wonderland" and in Jefferson Starship=quest for creative liberation, while Hefner's Playboy rabbit=sexual liberation.

Well, being from Madison was part of the problem, lol! . . . But, Bill Howard didn't identify our Alice show with the anti-war/counter culture movement. Actually, quite the opposite. He wanted to instill wholesome fun and entertainment into drum corps, not invite subversive youth rebellion ("Magical Mystery Tour" via drug use). I only brought in the more subversive treatments of "Alice in Wonderland" for context and perspective, not to suggest there was a causal connection. I just wanted to note how popular Alice was at that time in the wider culture and how it could be used in various ways--either as wholesome fun (which is what we had in mind), or youth rebellion. I don't think we were trying to be disrespectful to vets. Jazzing it up was a way to provide a fresh perspective on a well-known tune. Within the drum corps culture at that time, it indeed undermined the rules. :huh:Who in the heck knows, or cares! The Age of Aquarius is over, lol. Dan

Ask and you shall receive. Wikipedia's take on it: Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the added info, Sue. Dan

Well, we PLAYED "White Rabbit" in 1970...our initial Peace Sign music. Mike Yeah, Mike, the stars and planets were aligned in strange ways in 1970 and 1971. Rabbit symbolism seemed to be part of the counter culture movement back then. Obviously, you had Garfield's more overt anti-war statement with the rabbit motif. But, also in a curious way, our '71 Alice show via the rabbit image fit the rebellious mood of the times. In the drum corps context, that meant rebelling against authorative rules and hierachy through subversive "kids play." Specifically what the rabbit means as a rebellious symbol I don't know. Obviously, our respective corps directors weren't trying to overthrow the American establishment: the rebellion was savely channeled within drum corps to challenge the rigidity of VFW and AL rules. Its an interesting parallel how rebellious drum corps back then reflected, in some ways, the wider culture. Interestingly, "Alice in Wonderland" was not just a popular kids story, but was also a favorite story of the radical Surrealists artists and writers of the 1930s; the Surrealists influenced the psychedelic youth culture of the 1960s and early 1970s. The early Surrealists, including its leader, Andre Breton, wanted to liberate the supressed world of dreams, fantasy, and imagination that bourgeois culture seemed to stifle. Using Freudian psychoanalysis, they wanted to regress to childhood to recover that lost realm of intuition, spontaniety, and, hence, expressive freedom. If you have ever watched the 1981 film, "My Dinner with Andre," the avant-garde theater director, Andre Gregory, did an experimental play in the early 1970s called "Alice." Gregory mentions Andre Breton in relation to "Alice," using his surrealist techniques to create a play that was highly unconventional in staging, plot, costumes, etc. Yet, again, Bill Howard was not thinking about Andre Breton, or Freud. Sorry for the dissertation. Your rabbit statement got me thinking about its wider cultural implications. Dan

Yeah, Frank, and we even had velcro, lol! Dan

Hey Ron, there were a couple of guys who wore hairnets; one guy, if I recall, had a wig. I remember while dressing for VFW inspection seeing these guys tuck that stuff inside the small envelop hats--even hair pins were used. It was a real hoot watching it! Long hair wasn't prevalent in the '71 Scouts--that would change by 1973-1975. Yep, you can attribute that to Ray Baumgardt. The master of the low voice and balanced use of solos, small ensemble, and big full ensemble. One of my favorite Baumgardt charts from the early 70s is the Scouts's 1970 concert piece, "Black is the Color of My True Love's Hair." You'll hear parts of it on Vol. 1 of the Scout video. Another superb chart, way ahead of its time.

From my recollection, "Alice" did not take a penalty, at least not during the field show. Bill Howard's daughter played the role of Alice. Next time I see him, I'll ask Bill how she factored into VFW inspection, if at all. We did have a few deductions during inspection (about .4)--I'll find out if she was the source of any deductions. We indeed had to scrap our costumes for '71 VFW Nationals. However, we kept the other unconventional drill moves--the scatter drill and simulated movement of robotic toy soldiers during "March of the Wooden Soldiers," both of which we did at 1970 VFW in Miami. Don't forget, in addition to "Alice," "Pinnochio," and the "Seven Dwarfs," we also had a "White Rabbit" with a clock lol! . . . Man, I'm starting to sound silly describing this thing--I better stop. I'm just glad we dropped that stuff and became the Madison Scouts of 1973, 1974, and 1975. Time to run because as the white rabbit said: "I'm late, I'm late for a very important date." Dan

Butterflies hit this 15 year-old kid at 1971 VFW Nationals: "On the starting line, representing Lt. Marion E. Cranfield Post, no. 1318 . . . from Madison, Wisconsin the Madison Explorer Scouts."

He was the assistant to Drum Major John Schrack. Thanks for clearing some of those faulty memory banks. I stand corrected. Doug played bari from 1971-1976, was Assistant DM in 1977, and DM in 1978. MYNWA

Hey, we didn't have to raid. We were babe magnets, lol! Dan

That's the guy, thank you. It seemed the norm in drum corps at the time was 'We hate you, you hate us'. The competitive nature kept members from corps away from members of other corps. It seems it was strongly frowned on. For whatever reason, Doug Tholo and a few of the Blue Devil baritones breached the divide, and we thought to ourselves of times past 'Well that was stupid'. Now here we are all these years later, actually trying to co-mingle. How many years did this take us? Yeah, you had the "turf wars" so to speak, but there were exceptions. From my recollection, we co-mingled well with Kilts and Cavies, whom we saw regularly in our neck of the woods. Also, part of the problem in the mid-70s was that when you're in a winning corps like Scouts, BD, and SCV, you tend to go on near the end, which doesn't allow you see your competitors, nor mingle with them one-on one. Winning can, perhaps, bread a kind of isolationist mindset, i.e., "us vs them." I'm glad that time has mitigated competitive zeal of the past so we befriend and "catch up" on lost opportunities from the past. Dan

Yep, just go with the flow. Oh, man, sorry to hear that, Terri. lol.

You maybe thinking of Doug Tholo. He played bari from 1971-1977 and was DM in 1978.

"Mahagony" (sp?) closed the fiasco.

As a member who marched that year, I thought it had major problems. The opener, the theme from "Shaft," had potential with some reworking, but the rest of the show was little to be desired. "Pick of the Pieces" disco drum solo was a disaster and the ponderous marching version of "MacArthur Park" for out-of concert production was a ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. That show did not have a chance to challenge for the top prize. IMO, if we had stayed with that show, we probably would have finished 6-8 place. It was evident during our western tour during late June-early July that the "Disco Show" would not contend for the top. Hence, around July 1 (while we were in California), the staff informed us that the show would be scraped. From that point on, we learned the music to "1975 Redux" by day on the bus, while performing the "Disco Show" at night. I recall on the bus teaching the tenor parts to 1975 "MacPark" to the sole new guy in the tenor line. When we got back to MadTown c. July 8-9, we withdrew from all of our mid-season shows and went into an intensive 2-week camp to learn the new drill and the new music to "Stars and Stripes" and "Ease on Down the Road" drum solo. It was quite a herculean task, but, heck, as Michael Cesario said on the 1975 DVD, we were "The Mighty Men of Madison," lol! We gave it our best shot, but it just wasn't enough. "Stars and Stripes" couldn't compete against BD's "Channel One." We got what we deserved. With that said, in all of my years marching, 1976 Madison Scouts, Part II was one our finer moments as a group coming together in a period of adversity. You don't want to hear it. It ain't pretty.

Count me in! Dan

Enjoy, Ron! Needless to say, that '75 DVD is one of my all-time favorites ;-)

That was 1975 finals. My parents recorded '75 finals from the stands that night (a casette recorder), including J. Kievit's bull call--it comes through crystal clear. He played it after SCV was announced in 2nd, spilling it over into the 1st place announcement. The recording picks up mostly loud boos from the crowd (the Madison section) and faint boos and yells in distant areas of the stands. In our euphoric moment, we were oblivious to it on the field: heck, we just won nationals! Back to 1972.

"Maybe that is why Wisconsin was such a drum corps mega." Whoooops! That should be drum corps MECCA.

Ahhh. . . the WisCONsin nAsel Accent! Its not Norwegian as depicted in the film "Fargo," but comes closer to the Chicago accent--at least in southern Wisconsin (Madison), especially Milwaukee. it is quite nasal the further north you get, though... Thanks for letting me know!