scout9193

@keystone3plyfor fear of totally hijacking this thread, if you've not read "On Desperate Grounds" by Hampton Sides (https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/Book-Reviews/2018/1018/On-Desperate-Ground-chronicles-the-amazing-voyage-of-the-US-Marines-during-the-Korean-War) then I encourage you to. As a former Marine, my interest was obviously tied to the Corps; however, I had NO IDEA just how horrible is was for the Army unit east of the Reservoir. This book does cover that in a detail. This link also talks about the specific Army units involved and how they faced overwhelming odds as did the Marines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_Faith By the way, the book mentions that the coldest night recorded a temperature of over -60 *without windchill*

I seem to remember really digging the 13th place corps as well. In fact, I believe Wave may have beaten Sky Ryders and Bluecoats during the season. I'm going to have to go back and see if that show is on YT.

Incorrect. That 2.6% bleeds into other areas of a balance sheet and income statement. That 2.6% cannot be viewed in isolation.

I guess we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that. Props and electronics or just one piece but if you think they don’t impact “costly changes.” then you were absolutely wrong.

2.6% can yes add a lot of money 2.6% of five dollars is one thing 2.6 percent of 100 or 1000 or 10,000 or more a different animal.

They should and I would expect full well the cost. My point is there is a necessity they have in their mind to keep up that can override sound financial decisions. I see it every day in my current work don’t know what you do, but I can assure you, the need to keep up with your competition as a double edged sword financially

Let me be clear and I know my comment probably seems to point fingers. I’m a fan of the Bluecoats but I think it Has to be recognized that the direction they moved the direction that others felt compelled to try to keep up with the stay relevant and competitive 2016 as a show that I really enjoy but there were a lot of things that they did that other organizations took note off and said we have to spend money and that I have enough to keep up with it

Brain dead wrong? You’re brain dead if you don’t think they add a substantial cost.

that is absolutely part of this equation because you can’t take those two items in isolation. There’s a cost involved to purchase, maintain and transport, as well as a cost in personnel of those not on the field to do the same.

Here’s a hot take… I feel like there was a Rubicon that was crossed in 2016 because of the bluecoats. I like the organization of enjoy their shows but what they did in 2016 with all the extra things on the field i.e. the big skateboard ramps, and all the extra equipment they had. That stuff cost money both to purchase and carry around, they were rewarded for that but then it became. Let’s keep up with the Joneses and the activity we saw scaffolding, huge ramps, platforms, any number of things obviously the stuff has to be carried around and maintained along with all the electronics. Probably not a popular opinion, but it seem like the measuring stick changed to try to keep up with that sort of thing.

It's all window dressing until there is change at the very top and through those that help him stay there.

@bugleboy85 I'm interpreting your comments (please course correct If I'm mistaken) to mean that as good as the folks are elsewhere (ie. Fall) and after having success (with other groups) POST-the organization in Madison- the issue still bubbles up to an Individual (or individuals) in what I would call senior/ C-level management. Am I correct?

Jeff!!! What is up, man!! Hope you are well!

@kdaddy Ironically, I thought our closer was a bit of a let down after Strawberry Soup. I remember reworking it musically and drill-wise quite a bit. I DO remember hearing from folks that there was a thought of bringing back Remembrance as the closer at some point in pre-season. I also *think* they didn't want to play Ice Castles as the first two charts were already from past shows..I think they wanted an "Ice Castles"-esq type song though. . In my opinion, I'm not sure we had the musical horses that year to pull off Numero Uno, Soup and Remembrance in a show but man it would have been fun to try! I also believe the groundwork for 1994-1997 from a quality standpoint was laid in 1993. I recall it being a bit of a transition as most of the 1988/89 guys had aged out and the line was full of younger guys or guys new to Scouts. Not for nothing..

@Gantang Had they shelved the Scouts I would have certainly supported Capital Sound financially & otherwise to the extent I could have. I've not been in a place financially to be able to offer but only a pittance until recently. Now that I can offer a bit more, the last thing I'm inclined to do is take my hard earned money and throw it at this organization. Even if the director and BoD resign it feels to me like the damage has done at this point. I too feel like what I was taught & what it meant to be a member and alumnus has been sold out (dare I say sabotaged) by those in charge. I don't wish ill on any current marching member- male or female- but perhaps this organization has run its race.

It certainly seems that way. Are there any open class corps that may also pass them up (ie. BDB)?

An incredibly unpopular “hot take” but perhaps its time to bring back Capital Sound and transition to that (or another) name/organization. 80 years was a wonderful run but it just feels like whatever equity of excellence and history disappears more and more each year. Pay off creditors/ debts through a restructuring bky and start over. If Madison can’t come back then perhaps then it was not meant to be. Either way, limping along in name only is not a worthwhile existence. I’m sure there would be those who say "would you not at least want to have Madison even as a 16th Pl., CORPS around versus no Madison at all?" My answer is a resounding no if it does not appear to have an upward trend to at least becoming relevant. If all they are going to be is what they are now, this is no different than any other middling organization, my answer is no. I’m sure this will probably anger a good many folks but I suspect I may not be alone in that viewpoint.

Wasn't it around 1988 that Scott's opinion on the judging being fickle/corrupt/not worth paying close attention to really started to come into sharper focus? I know I heard some of that talk in '91 and even more in '93 but I believe this had been a few years in the making by that time. I do specifically remember hearing in 1995 that the staff sent several foreign members to critique one night instructing them to basically say nothing except "box 4 no, box 5". While humorous at the time, I would think things like this really left a bad taste in the judging community's "mouth" so when the talent did start to drop there was no benefit of the doubt offered. Even in 1991 we had members (power vets from the late 80's) who remembered beating corps like Phantom, Star, Cavies on at least a semi consistent basis. In fact, I remember the only time we beat Star in '91 on first tour. I had a 5 year power vet behind me in retreat who kept muttering under his breath "f**k yeah!" There was no hatred but a competitive desire and acknowledgement that competitive success lent itself to long term financial & organizational success. I can't tell you how many times in 93 someone would ask, "what time is it?" to which the answer was always "time to stop losing to Phantom in horns". All this to say that victors are the ones who write history. If the activity is crooked, you can only change it successfully engaging with the powers that be to the point of having the equity TO change it. I always felt the head in the sand approach/ laissez faire attitude during that time about the competitive aspect of the activity was a bad idea. This, to me, is a huge reason for what we have now.

I can only speak for myself in response. Admittedly, I was and am far removed from the day to day/week to week contact with those involved in the decision; however, three points seem to resonate with me. Moreover, as an alumnus I didn't feel like my voice was acknowledged or heard. : 1. Rightly or wrongly it felt like a fait accompli. One day I get a request asking for our thoughts. I said in my original post I thought this was in the form of an email but as I think things through, it may have been a post on the alumni board with an email address to send our thoughts to. I remember distinctly staying after work to draft what I believed to be a thoughtful response. I received nothing in return- not even an automatic response indicating my email had been received. I hear nothing further even when I speak/correspond with fellow alumni closer to Madison geographically and/or those actively speaking with the direct decision makers. I took that to mean the issue had been tabled if not dismissed based on what the board et al received in the way of feedback. The next inkling I received was a public announcement that I'm quite confident I either read on FaceBook (as I still had an account at the time) or perhaps even here. I specifically remember seeing it on a Saturday morning in June. 2. It felt like the decision was made from a point of weakness-competitive and organizational. The talent level of the corps appears to have steadily declined over the last decade, esp. in the guard. To my "eyes" it came across as a trying to address/correct a symptom (decreased talent, placement) via broadening the talent pool by introducing females. Dare I say throwing 80 years of history out for the sake of competitive expediency. To me, the issues seemed much deeper (ie. markedly increased alumni apathy/dissatisfaction/feeling ignored or marginalized leading to untapped support -financial & otherwise) to poor/outdated/half baked design and staff decisions to rumblings of a power hungry corps director surrounding himself with yes men. There's more but I'll leave that off this post. 3. At the time and especially now I looked at the other all-male organization and have to question what is it they did/do/will do in the future to maintain their unique traditions & history. I'm not privy to their comings and goings so perhaps there are discussions about adding females. I do see where, when they were starting to slide competitively around this same window of time, they appear to have made good decisions to get back on the path to relevancy (not that they were irrelevant but by their standards) without foregoing several decades of tradition (75 years now?) I'm a charter member of a coed drumcorps now very successful. I'm also a founding father of a fraternity chapter and a former United States Marine. Of all the experiences I had that helped shaped me to be a man and ultimately father of two little girls and head of a family I look at my time spent with Madison as a key foundation. I can't help but feel like this tradition of being all-male (while not necessarily BETTER but certainly unique to young men who shared hardships as well as good times)was deemed by certain individuals as outdated or worse yet, toxic. Rightly or wrongly, I feel the lessons taught to me and instilled in me by men I looked up to were thrown away by a certain few for competitive expediency and b/c of their own personal "moral" justifications. I humbly offer that I may not be alone in this. Respectfully, CM

@Vuitton A lot to unpack there. I'm sorry for your experiences. As an alumnus who's always been geographically far removed from the Madison, WI area (North Carolina and now Virginia) there's always been a real challenge in trying to stay involved as my efforts always felt by and large like a one-way street. Since aging out in 1993 I can recall two times when I proactively heard from a member of corps management/board to give an update and to ask for help and to solicit feedback on potential changes. The first was Jeff Spanos via a phone call circa 2007 and the second was circa 2018/19 via an internal at-large email from Brent Turner (who I believe was on the board then) when I first heard about the idea of introducing females to join active as jacket-wearing full marching members (not a featured dancer or wearing the uniform during a holiday parade). I wrote a long email in response to this request but heard nothing (not even an acknowledgement that my email had been received) until reading the public co-ed announcement here on dcp in early season 2019. That's a separate discussion but I believe a decision had been made before any at-large "feedback" was requested. It's important to point out that I was never anywhere near a large financial donor even when I was active on what I thought was an alumni roster. Without my own efforts to keep up with brothers (those I marched with and those that came before/after me) via social media I've never truly felt plugged in/ aware of things. Admittedly, through my own decision to leave FB, twitter and most other social media platforms circa 2020 that awareness dwindled further. I didn't know that the alumni page had been shut down, for example. There's always been a portion of our alumni who never are satisfied (I've fallen into that myself group at different points) which has led to internal strife (see the end of Scott Stewart's & Sal Salas' tenures). That said, as an only child, I'd also believed brothers can be like this and perhaps this is not unusual. Hurt feelings, anger, indignation, fighting, sometimes viciously, amongst ourselves happens but woe be unto an outside who tries to intervene or start trouble from the outside. In my eyes, after the 2019 decision and what I believe was a fait accompli by a select few with personal agendas, I came to the opinion that the organization I grew to love as a fan & brother & alumnus died. This, coupled with what I believe is a lack of organized effort by the organization (beyond casual social media) to try to help reconnect with & maintain relationships with far-removed (geographically, age- wise, etc.) brothers has made me feel by and large indifferent as to what happens with this organization now. I keep in touch with a small handful of brothers (3) but that's all. I truly believe, though, that if I didn't still care somewhere deep down and then I wouldn't have bothered replying here. The activity changes, all things change. I've accepted that but I will also go to my grave believing that what I was part of was not necessarily better but it was unique to the activity. Not all change is good, needed or solve underlying problems. Decisions leading to courses of action or inaction made over the last decade to 15 years have done more harm than good. I still care but only as a far removed observer (perhaps kind of like someone who looks in passing at traffic accident on the street), and not engaged/valued or thoughtful alumnus. The rubicon has been crossed in my eyes. Just my .02 thank you for reading my ramblings. Respectfully, CM

In the not too distant past, we'd be heading into the 4th weekend.

Just wondering if anyone had videos (Lord I'm old) of 1991 & 1993 Scouts quarters/semis saved in a format they're able to share. I've never those particular performances and YouTube doesn't have anything. Thank you in advance.

Both my kids love music and are involved in band. I couldn't afford to send either one to march one year even if they were interested.

Are they not still paid?